The Significance of Taoist Virtue

[ChiDragon]

I had specifically stated that the definition of Te stands alone in Chapter 51.

 

Yes, it seems that you cannot unlearn what you had learned before. What I was telling you, stay within the definition which defined by LaoTze in Chapter 51 without any external influence. Chapter 51 is about pure Nature, thus there is no human nature involved.

 

What said is all correct, but they do not apply in Chapter 51 because this chapter was establishing its own definition for Te. One must try to isolate all other ideas from the past experience for the interpretation this chapter. The whole Wu Wei concept was derived from this Chapter.

[Aaron]

I had specifically stated that the definition of Te stands alone in Chapter 51.

 

Yes, it seems that you cannot unlearn what you had learned before. What I was telling you, stay within the definition which defined by LaoTze in Chapter 51 without any external influence. Chapter 51 is about pure Nature, thus there is no human nature involved.

 

What said is all correct, but they do not apply in Chapter 51 because this chapter was establishing its own definition for Te. One must try to isolate all other ideas from the past experience for the interpretation this chapter. The whole Wu Wei concept was derived from this Chapter.

 

Yes, I understand what you're saying, I just don't think this chapter actually does stand alone as a definition. In fact I don't think it's much of a definition at all. I would like to see something a little less metaphorical and a bit more pragmatic. Anyways, if this is your definition and understanding, that's fine. Still, from my own experience, I think there are many other chapters one can bring into this conversation regarding Te and Virtue to fully understand the significance of Virtue in Taoism.

 

Aaron

[zerostao]

Bumping this up seeing that the topic has arisen once again in other topics. Important to note that Dao is ever-present in ALL things, no exception. De is the reflection of Dao, the Dao-nature, within all things.

 

this thread deserves a timely bump from time to time.

i was looking in a meditation thread but thought my post is better placed here.

 

as already discussed in this thread , when we attempt to examine etymologically

and connotative meanings of the word Te we encounter difficulties.

it can be virtue or even moral conduct, innate qualities , power, or to observe the mind.

in chapter 16 of TTC contains a clear description of what a man of Te is.

it follows in progressive detail the process of contemplation, which is from action to non-action;

a reverse of the usual course of psychic functions. thru non-action absolute quietude is achieved.

then one see's their own original nature.

when this occurs one interfuses with 11,520 things and becomes one of them.

this interfusion is all embracing and all pervading. one goes to the void.

 

chuang tzu says ;

when a man is extremely tranquil then the heavenly light is given forth.

he who emits this life sees their real self.

who cultivates the real self achieves the absolute.

heavenly qualities will come to your assistance.

 

to have the fuller expression of tranquility which leads to enlightenment.

intellection and reasoning need to vanish.

these heavenly qualities described by chaung tzu is him speaking of lao tzu.

who sat as a motionless corpse and yet revealed himself as a dragon.

from profound stillness came forth thunder.

to reveal one's spirit as a dragon is symbolic of one achieving enlightenment.

the light that shines out from a being is spiritual.

the pure light shining is the consciousness of the unconscious.

 

so, i will say that for me Te is the achievement of enlightenment

thru meditation. when Te is achieved one has returned to one's

original nature. so the one who has Te walks without worries,

and has attained a higher stage of psychic integration.

[MassTaoism]

I just read the initial post within this thread and am totally blown away, wow, that was quite the read and I got to say that I agree with quite a bit of it if not all of it. Great topic, I truly believe that the Tao and virtue are both intertwined if not linked to eachother, especially since the Tao and virtue both exist within all concrete things.

[ChiDragon]

I would like to add to this.

 

1. Te (Virtue with a upper case "V") is the Way (Upper case "W") of Tao. It is the way (the processes) Tao functions.

 

2. Chapter 51 defines what man considers to be positive attributes of the way of Tao. But we are also reminded that creation is the same as destruction in the eyes of Tao.

 

3. These destructive processes are generally considered vices in the eyes of man. But they are only the processes. Judgments cannot be placed on the Te of Tao.

 

4. However, the te (virtue, lower case "v') of man is different because we place judgment on everything. (We define beauty and in doing so we also define ugly.)

 

5. The base guidelines for the virtue of man is the three treasures. Chapter 51 expands on this concept. The chapter speaks to the Te of Tao but they can be directly related to attributes that would be considered good if man were to follow these guidelines.

 

6. I personally think that man's ego leads one away from the three treasures. Ego causes us to experience greed and other desires. Therefore we are told to lessen our ego, to lessen our desires.

Chapter 51 was actually introducing Tao and Te of Tao. It was all about Tao and Te of Tao and human was not mentioned.

 

1. Yes, lines 1 through 7 were the introduction of Tao and Te.

 

2. Yes, lines 10 through 17 are making a listing of the good deeds of Tao.

10.Tao engenders it,

11.Te fosters it.

12.Grow it nourish it,

13.Let it grow to maturity,

14.Foster it and protect it.

15.Produce it but not possess it.

16.Keep it but not restrain it,

17.Raise it but not control it,

18.Is the abyssal virtue.

 

Line 18 was coming to a final conclusion that lines 10 through 17 are the abyssal Te(Virtue) of Tao.

 

3. .....

 

4. The virtue of man was referred as the good human conduct e.g. morality and good behavior.

 

5. Human who follows the Te(Virtue) of Tao, but not the te(virtue) of man, was considered to be following the guidelines of Tao. One who follows the guidelines or principles of Tao was considered to be a Taoist which was being Virtuous. Thus a Virtuous Taoist was considered to be the one who follows the Te(Virtue) of Tao.

 

In other words, a Virtuous Taoist is different from a virtuous person which who follows the morality guidelines. A Virtuous Taoist is more toward following the concept of Wu Wei but not excluding the morality. Those who follow the morality principles are said to be Confucians.

 

6. These ego lessons were taught in other chapters of the Tao Te Ching. I don't see them, here, in this chapter.

[Marblehead]

 

6. These ego lessons were taught in other chapters of the Tao Te Ching. I don't see them, here, in this chapter.

 

Nope. They are not there. That is why I started the sentence with "I personally think ..."

 

It was an after-thought, as in an editorial comment.