How do Taoists use Islamic techniques or philosophies?

[Pietro]

Dear Zhuo Ming-Dao,

in another thread you wrote:

I personally think that there is nothing wrong with hearing from and taking from as many perspectives as possible. Taoists have always taken whatever techniques or philosophies seem to work and integrate them into their practice, using Taoism as a type of metaphysical infrastructure. Confucian, Buddhist, Shamanic, and even Islamic (believe it or not). This was their Way and it should be our Way as well. You use what works for you and throw away what doesn't.

 

As I think Islam is on the rise on the west, I am interested on how Taoists use Islamic "techniques or philosophies" for their own practice.

 

Can you shed some light?

 

Many thanks,

Pietro

 

P.S. I post it here since I think the topic deserve its own thread, and the other thread is right now focused on something else.

[Marblehead]

Yes, I saw that post last night but I was being otherwise entertained so I did not question it.

 

Just for clarification from my perspective - There is no Islamic culture or religion in by belief system. Of course Islam did not exist when the texts that I use as guides were written.

 

Be well!

[Vajrahridaya]

Yes, I saw that post last night but I was being otherwise entertained so I did not question it.

 

Just for clarification from my perspective - There is no Islamic culture or religion in by belief system. Of course Islam did not exist when the texts that I use as guides were written.

 

Be well!

 

You know, there is Sufi Islam, the type that seems to be influenced by Buddhism and Hinduism. That would be more compatible with Taoism.

[Marblehead]

You know, there is Sufi Islam, the type that seems to be influenced by Buddhism and Hinduism. That would be more compatible with Taoism.

 

Yes, although my knowledge in this area is very minimal, from things I have heard I would have to agree with you.

 

Hey, afterall, there was a lot of interaction betweer the Indians and Arabs. Cultures influence each other in many ways.

 

Be well!

[Zhuo Ming-Dao]

I am happy to oblige (and hopefully others can chime in as well).

 

China was one of the first countries in the world to receive Islam (as strange as that sounds). Mohamed's maternal uncle, Sa`ad ibn Abi Waqqas, was sent to meet with Emperor Gaozong in 650 A.D. The Emperor thought that the religion was compatible with Confucianism, so he ordered the building of a mosque and gave them state funding and permission to start converting Chinese. The Caliphate Empire became a huge trading partner for China, and Arabian and Persian Muslims became a very common feature in most major cities. From there it quickly spread to the locals and became one of the four court-recognized religions of China (next to Buddhism, Taoism, and Confucianism). In fact, several of China's most important historical figures were Muslims, such as Zheng He, the man who commanded the highly advanced Chinese fleet that traveled the world on a mission of exploration (and who many think beat Columbus to America).

 

The Arabic script played a huge influence on calligraphy. It was responsible for some wonderful flourishes that became the norm in Chinese brush work.

 

The architecture of Mosques inspired new aesthetic techniques in Taoist temples throughout the country. Taoist, Buddhist and Islamic temple building styles all played off of each other, stole from each other, and similarly shaped each others development.

 

The Muslims also brought a new wealth of scientific discovery to China, particularly medicine, astrology and astronomy, which have always been of huge interest to the Taoists. The Taoists integrated this learning into Traditional Chinese Medicine, their fengshui, and into their early inner alchemical systems.

 

Many NeoTaoist ideas came out of synthesis with or differentiation from prominent Islamic philosophy, just as what happened with Confucianism and Buddhism. When any two religions are in contact with each other, there will naturally be dialog.

 

Chinese Muslims created and modified many forms of wushu such as bajiquan, piguazhang, and liuhequan. There were specific areas that were known to be centers of Muslim wushu, such as Cang County in Hebei.

 

 

 

The majority of Chinese Muslims were Sunni, but there are also many large populations of Sufi Muslims as well since the introduction of Islam into China. Traditionally, it was very difficult to tell the difference between a Buddhist and a Sufi in China, because they would wear very similar robes, and do very similar practices. I think that there would have necessarily been some cross pollination between Sufi meditation and Taoist, even if it came through prior Buddhist syncratism.

[phore]

santiago, teaches islamic techniques.

penkak silat- a sufi martial art

tenaga dalam- is a sufi version of qigong

illmu kebatinan- is a more spiritual version if tenaga dalam

 

[Zhuo Ming-Dao]

Just for clarification from my perspective - There is no Islamic culture or religion in by belief system. Of course Islam did not exist when the texts that I use as guides were written.

 

This is a big claim to make since Islamic religion and culture directly gave birth to Western chemistry and several other forms of science, which flourished in Islamic countries during Europe's Dark Ages. So it would be impossible to live in a Westernized country and not feel the effects of Islamic culture on your belief system.

 

...of course, science is now king in the West, while Islamic countries have thoroughly stifled any form of progress thanks to the legal enforcement of Hadith traditions (by trying to recreate the lifestyle conditions and beliefs from the time of Mohamed and by throwing away all that which was not in the Quran). It is amazing how the world shifts.

[Zhuo Ming-Dao]

Oh, and I almost forgot to mention the most important thing by far in the trade of ideas between Islam and Taoism.

 

For the first 1,000 years or so of Islamic history there was a massive interest in alchemy. In fact, the west imported Arabic alchemy during the Renaissance and slowly transformed it into modern chemistry (while keeping some Hermetic traditions alive). Granted, the Moslims received the theory from ancient Greek and Egyptian texts, but they brought the physical practices to life on a wholly different level.

 

Given this, it is foolish to think that there would not have been a major commerce of alchemical ideas and techniques between the Taoists and the Muslims in China.

[Pietro]

I am happy to oblige (and hopefully others can chime in as well).

 

China was one of the first countries in the world to receive Islam (as strange as that sounds). Mohamed's maternal uncle, Sa`ad ibn Abi Waqqas, was sent to meet with Emperor Gaozong in 650 A.D. The Emperor thought that the religion was compatible with Confucianism, so he ordered the building of a mosque and gave them state funding and permission to start converting Chinese. The Caliphate Empire became a huge trading partner for China, and Arabian and Persian Muslims became a very common feature in most major cities. From there it quickly spread to the locals and became one of the four court-recognized religions of China (next to Buddhism, Taoism, and Confucianism). In fact, several of China's most important historical figures were Muslims, such as Zheng He, the man who commanded the highly advanced Chinese fleet that traveled the world on a mission of exploration (and who many think beat Columbus to America).

 

The Arabic script played a huge influence on calligraphy. It was responsible for some wonderful flourishes that became the norm in Chinese brush work.

 

The architecture of Mosques inspired new aesthetic techniques in Taoist temples throughout the country. Taoist, Buddhist and Islamic temple building styles all played off of each other, stole from each other, and similarly shaped each others development.

 

The Muslims also brought a new wealth of scientific discovery to China, particularly medicine, astrology and astronomy, which have always been of huge interest to the Taoists. The Taoists integrated this learning into Traditional Chinese Medicine, their fengshui, and into their early inner alchemical systems.

 

Many NeoTaoist ideas came out of synthesis with or differentiation from prominent Islamic philosophy, just as what happened with Confucianism and Buddhism. When any two religions are in contact with each other, there will naturally be dialog.

 

Chinese Muslims created and modified many forms of wushu such as bajiquan, piguazhang, and liuhequan. There were specific areas that were known to be centers of Muslim wushu, such as Cang County in Hebei.

The majority of Chinese Muslims were Sunni, but there are also many large populations of Sufi Muslims as well since the introduction of Islam into China. Traditionally, it was very difficult to tell the difference between a Buddhist and a Sufi in China, because they would wear very similar robes, and do very similar practices. I think that there would have necessarily been some cross pollination between Sufi meditation and Taoist, even if it came through prior Buddhist syncratism.

 

Zhuo Ming-Dao, thank you very much.

 

Do you have particular example on how modern taoists cope in an islamic environment?

 

We know in recent years Islam has really exploded, and is now present everywhere. More than that in some situation is quite imposing its way of living. How do Taoists cope with this kind of situation? This is particularly interesting since Islam tend to be nicer toward religion of the book (christian and Judaism), and less nice toward the other religions.

 

Vajrahridaya, please if you can, accept to be a bit more in the background for one time.

 

Thanks,

Pietro

[Marblehead]

Oh, picky, picky, picky. Hehehe.

 

Yes, I am aware that there was a time when Arabic culture and science was king. But like you said ...

 

I found out not too long ago the the Arabic numbering system is really not Arabic, it is Indian. The Europeans learned if from the Arabs and assumed the Arabs had devised it.

 

But I really was referring to the Taoism part of my belief system.

 

Be well!

 

 

 

 

Given this, it is foolish to think that there would not have been a major commerce of alchemical ideas and techniques between the Taoists and the Muslims in China.

 

I agree completely. The exchange of ideas between peoples has been going on every since there have been people.

 

Shampoo and bathing regularly are ideas the Europeans borrowed from the Indians. The European people were pretty dirty folks prior to learning those two ideas.

 

And I will even agree that the Taoist religion was and still is heavily influenced by thoughts outside of China.

 

Be well!

[Zhuo Ming-Dao]

Zhuo Ming-Dao, thank you very much.

 

Do you have particular example on how modern taoists cope in an islamic environment?

 

We know in recent years Islam has really exploded, and is now present everywhere. More than that in some situation is quite imposing its way of living. How do Taoists cope with this kind of situation? This is particularly interesting since Islam tend to be nicer toward religion of the book (christian and Judaism), and less nice toward the other religions.

 

This is a tall order that I wish I had more personal experience on (or maybe not...as such things often seem to be violent). Perhaps someone else has more personal experience than I. I seem to recall a person on one tread saying that they were a closet Taoist in a Muslim family. I would love to hear more about what that might be like.

 

 

From a historical standpoint I can tell you what it was like in China. For the most part, their interactions together were VERY tolerant and peaceful. Chinese Muslims held to the precepts but otherwise wore traditional Chinese clothes and lived normal Chinese lifestyles (minus the kitchen god and a few festivals ). It was rare or impossible for them to go make the pilgrimage to Mecca of course, but otherwise they would keep the dietary and prayer precepts.

 

There were a few periods where it was hard to be a Muslim in China, like while the Mongols ruled (but it was also hard on monastic Taoists then too). But for the most part they were tolerant of each other. Many problems were probably avoided since Chinese Muslims largely lost contact with the rest of the Muslim world before the Hadith became law (which would have made them (men and women) stand out and look act in a fundamentally different way than other Chinese people).

 

In modern mainland China, monastic Taoism is mostly dead. There are still some genuine cultivators, but most people that you meet in robes at temples are government employees and are just there for the tourists.(Priestly) Taoism is undergoing a bit of a revival the last few years in China, but it is not really comparable to what it was like prior to the Cultural Revolution. Islam currently makes up about 2% of the population of China, but again, it was largely decimated during the Cultural Revolution. I do not know what interactions are like now, but I would assume the government watches closely.

 

In Taiwan I do not think that I saw any Muslims (but that does not mean there are none), while Taoism is ever present. So there, Islam would probably be an extreme minority.

 

 

I am sorry if I am dominating this conversation, but I figured that I was invited to since my name was in the tag line.

[Vajrahridaya]

 

Vajrahridaya, please if you can, accept to be a bit more in the background for one time.

 

Thanks,

Pietro

 

I'm interested in reading and learning. As I have been doing despite your subjective and narrow interpretation of me and my posts. I will do exactly what I wish to do and won't accept any wish from you as a rule.

[Vajrahridaya]

 

I am sorry if I am dominating this conversation, but I figured that I was invited to since my name was in the tag line.

 

I'm sure none of us mind. You seem to be the only one that knows anything about this stuff. I for one had Nooooo idea that Islam had any footholds in China at all, at all. I am completely ignorant on that history and have never come across this information anywhere, which surprises me.

 

I have a question concerning Monastic Taoism. What influenced monastic rules, when early really early Taoism was mostly about just going with the flow and enjoying what comes, wasn't it? I've read that at first it was kind of an opposing way of being to rigid Confucianism in some places?

Edited August 15, 2009 by Vajrahridaya

[Zhuo Ming-Dao]

I have a question concerning Monastic Taoism. What influenced monastic rules, when early really early Taoism was mostly about just going with the flow and enjoying what comes, wasn't it? I've read that at first it was kind of an opposing way of being to rigid Confucianism in some places?

 

You are absolutely right about the early Taoism of the late Zhuo Dynasty and the Warring States period. By the time we reached the Han Dynasty, early Taoist philosophy and practice had mixed significantly with the Yin-Yang (5-phase theory) school, the Penglai (longevity) school, the Naturalists (anti-civilization), the Yang Tsu school (natural hedonism), and the fenshi practices (alchemy/fu magic). This grew during the course of the 800+ year long Han Dynasty to also include deity warship and animism, until you start seeing whole Taoist communities and theocratic societies arise. After the fall of the Han dynasty, various splinter states begun sponsoring Buddhism, which in turn gave rise to monasteries popping up in different parts of China. The Taoists soon followed suit and began building their own monasteries in order to compete with the new kids in town. Throughout the rest of Chinese history, Emperors or entire dynasties would choose to primarily sponsor either Buddhism or Taoism and defrock monks and nuns from the loosing religion depending largely on the politics of the period. For example, when the Mongols or Manchu ruled China, they wanted a religion in power that was not native and entrenched, so they sponsored just Buddhism in order to guarantee loyalty. When the Han Chinese were in power, though, they would usually prefer Taoism. Islam had several periods where it received excellent patronage and funding from the state, but because it did not require monasteries, it never became a huge political player.

 

If you want to get a better idea of Taoist monastic life and history check out this book:

 

http://www.amazon.com/Daoist-Monastic-Manu...9803&sr=8-6

[Pietro]

I will do exactly what I wish to do and won't accept any wish from you as a rule.

 

But of course, if my request was going to be felt as a rule.

 

Take care,

Pietro

[findley]

In modern mainland China, monastic Taoism is mostly dead. There are still some genuine cultivators, but most people that you meet in robes at temples are government employees and are just there for the tourists.(Priestly) Taoism is undergoing a bit of a revival the last few years in China, but it is not really comparable to what it was like prior to the Cultural Revolution.

 

 

OH ! Wow that is so super-cool interesting to hear ! I was personally assuming that Taoism would largely consist of frauds-- but even government employees for the tourists?? Yes, I know they do that sort of thing in Tibet, (for example, after the last major crack-down,) but ...wow...

 

Hey, you know, I am hoping to find somebody in Beijing who may be able to teach me the inherent wisdom in the Tao Te Ching, and the secret of the golden flower. (I have also been learning teachings from the Complete Reality school, thanks to Cleary's translations in his 'Taoist Classics' volumes... but eh...)

 

You know, I started a fight with a western TCM practitioner, qigong/tai chi instructor who claimed a 'master' from beijing. I paid 50 bucks to take a seminar, (I short-changed them ) with the guy... 'ping',,, and he taught an obviously corrupt interpretation of the SotGF, (I didn't realize until my recent studies...)

 

I mean... do you have any advice, on how I might go about finding somebody in the Beijing area who might have genuinely mastered the art and wisdom of the basic, primary texts?

 

-Any advice, at all?

 

Thanks if you do, man

[Vajrahridaya]

 

If you want to get a better idea of Taoist monastic life and history check out this book:

 

http://www.amazon.com/Daoist-Monastic-Manu...9803&sr=8-6

 

Wow, expensive! It might be worth checking out though. But, since I don't have it yet. Would you say that the Taoist rules of conduct in their monasteries was heavily influenced by the Buddhas Vinaya? Or do you know who made up the Taoist rules for monks? Or what group of people put them together, are there names?

 

But of course, if my request was going to be felt as a rule.

 

Take care,

Pietro

 

Yes, sorry, I still have a bit of the rebellious teenager in me. But, no, I'm genuinely interested in the history of all religions. It's an interest that at times subsumes all other interests, including eating and sleeping.

[Zhuo Ming-Dao]

Wow, expensive! It might be worth checking out though. But, since I don't have it yet. Would you say that the Taoist rules of conduct in their monasteries was heavily influenced by the Buddhas Vinaya? Or do you know who made up the Taoist rules for monks? Or what group of people put them together, are there names?

 

Oops, I meant to give you the link for Livia Kohn's book on comparative monastic traditions, not her monastic rule translation. Both are great books, but the one I meant to link to is a bit less expensive (though still not cheap). I know sometimes I still wish I was in college if for no other reason than to have access to a high level academic library.

 

http://www.amazon.com/Monastic-Life-Mediev...8512&sr=1-1

 

Rather than have me rake my memory trying to remember all those details from collage, here is a link with a very brief and simplified explanation of some of the particulars of the origins of Taoist monasticism.

 

http://philtar.ucsm.ac.uk/encyclopedia/taoism/geness.html

[Vajrahridaya]

Oops, I meant to give you the link for Livia Kohn's book on comparative monastic traditions, not her monastic rule translation. Both are great books, but the one I meant to link to is a bit less expensive (though still not cheap). I know sometimes I still wish I was in college if for no other reason than to have access to a high level academic library.

 

http://www.amazon.com/Monastic-Life-Mediev...8512&sr=1-1

 

Rather than have me rake my memory trying to remember all those details from collage, here is a link with a very brief and simplified explanation of some of the particulars of the origins of Taoist monasticism.

 

http://philtar.ucsm.ac.uk/encyclopedia/taoism/geness.html

 

Ah! Bless you, as you are a regular Taoist encyclopedia!

[Zhuo Ming-Dao]

OH ! Wow that is so super-cool interesting to hear ! I was personally assuming that Taoism would largely consist of frauds-- but even government employees for the tourists?? Yes, I know they do that sort of thing in Tibet, (for example, after the last major crack-down,) but ...wow...

 

Hey, you know, I am hoping to find somebody in Beijing who may be able to teach me the inherent wisdom in the Tao Te Ching, and the secret of the golden flower. (I have also been learning teachings from the Complete Reality school, thanks to Cleary's translations in his 'Taoist Classics' volumes... but eh...)

 

You know, I started a fight with a western TCM practitioner, qigong/tai chi instructor who claimed a 'master' from beijing. I paid 50 bucks to take a seminar, (I short-changed them ) with the guy... 'ping',,, and he taught an obviously corrupt interpretation of the SotGF, (I didn't realize until my recent studies...)

 

I mean... do you have any advice, on how I might go about finding somebody in the Beijing area who might have genuinely mastered the art and wisdom of the basic, primary texts?

 

-Any advice, at all?

 

Thanks if you do, man

 

Finding expert taiji/qigong/TCM people in China is pretty easy these days. Since the early 90s or so (my ancient history is better than my modern ) the government has lifted the ban and worked hard to promote taiji as a traditional calisthenic. Also, TCM has become a major part of hospital and clinic treatment as the government found that it is more affordable and nearly as effective as state sponsored western medical health care.

 

The trouble is in finding genuine spiritual cultivators (not just people who collect qi) and people who are versed in the ancient textual traditions. It is not that they do not exist, but just that most of them were driven off in the 1950s and not allowed to teach for over 40 years... so many lineages died off. Several years ago the state funded a program to print and distribute millions of copies of the Tao Te Ching in order to recapture a little of their philosophical heritage, but the books were "translated" into modern, spoken Mandarin Chinese (which is radically different from Classical Chinese). Included with the "translations" was a reformatting of much material so that it conformed with the party line. Putting one of the books next to the original is pretty laughable. Oh well.

 

Soooo, you are going to have to look for an academic at the school you are staying at or find the rare someone who has been initiated into one of the surviving textual traditions. If your school in Beijing has a Classics program, maybe one of the professors will know where to point you.

 

As for The Secret of the Golden Flower, keep in mind that this text is not one of the most famous Taoist texts in China. It has become incredibly popular in the West due to some strong promotion from C.G. Jung, but in China it is just one of dozens of important NeoTaoist texts. If you find someone to teach you, you will want to be open to whatever text he means to introduce you to. Besides, there are MANY great Taoist texts that have not been translated into English yet, and if you could get guidance through one of them and then translate it with a commentary from a genuine lineage...

[findley]

I think I understand--

 

thank you