Role of Virtue

[Sloppy Zhang]

So every once in a while you come across an article on qigong, or developing high level martial arts skills, and somewhere in there the person usually says something like, "of course, only someone of the highest virtue can attain these amazing abilities."

 

But here and there you hear people say things to the contrary. Well, not necessarily to the contrary, but they say that, when it comes down to your own moral compass, that's not necessarily as important as, say, diligent practice.

 

What do you guys think? When it comes to cultivation, qigong, realizing emptiness, whatever your practice may entail, does virtue play a part in it? What are the virtues you should have? Does virtue trump practice? Will a "bad person" be turned away or hindered after a certain while? Or can someone, even someone with the not-so best intent, with diligent practice, reach the highest levels and reap the rewards?

[King Kabalabhati]

I would not see the point in increasing one's energy and capacity if not for the purpose of increasing virtue. The reason I started doing Taoist exercises was that I wasn't able to be as good a person to my wife&kids (and others too) as I thought I should. A path like this might lead to a higher level, but I won't be dissapointed if it simply leads to living a more harmonious "regular" life.

 

So to commit to practice for some egoistic purpose of enlightenment to me seems like a waste. And as I've understood the increased energy, health and capacity is bound to make one virtous after some time, otherwise mental problems will occur. This might lead to one becoming a "black magician" and is hardly something I would wish for anyone.

 

This is not to say virtuous means the same as a familyman/woman, but a person with sincere and pure intentions. And I should add that I don't really know shit about this, just a gut feeling

Edited August 16, 2009 by King Kabalabhati

[Marblehead]

And I should add that I don't really know shit about this, just a gut feeling

 

I suggest that our 'gut' feelings are most often the truest reflection of our Self. Hopefully these reflections are pure as well.

 

Tao gives us life, Te nurtures that life.

 

Yes, those with little virtue can achieve great accomplishments. They can become the wealthest people in the world - they can become champions of the world in there field.

 

But I would ask what good are all the wealth and titles if one is not at peace with themself?

 

The virtue of Tao is always available to us: Tao covers all.

 

The virtue of man should follow the virtue of Tao.

 

If we can merge the two (Te and virtue) we will find inner peace regardless of our accomplishments. In this state external success and failure hold no value.

 

Be well!

[Stigweard]

You will pretty much get my views on virtue in these topics:

 

The Significance of Taoist Virtue

Virtue is...

 

I'll add that, in my view, virtue is the most essential practice in Taoist training and yet it is so overlooked by modern practitioners.

 

In short Daojiao 道教 is principally about the reestablishment of one's integral nature and the natural, spontaneous emanation of such a wholesome being can be described as virtue or De 德. Every practice and effort is intended toward this goal.

[findley]

whooaaaa stigweard that is a loud signature

 

'Highest virtue is not virtuous'

 

'when the dao was lost, there was benevolence'

 

'good men are the teachers of the bad; the bad learn from the good' (something like that, anyways,)

 

'the world recognizes the good for the good, yet this is only the bad'

 

 

dogmatists are the creators of all wrong action.

[Marblehead]

Hi Findley,

 

Here is Henricks' translation of that:

 

1. The highest virtue is not virtuous; therefore it truly has virtue.

2. The lowest virtue never loses sight of its virtue; therefore it has no true virtue.

 

3. The highest virtue takes no action, yet it has no reason for acting this way;

4. The highest humanity takes action, yet it has no reason for acting this way;

5. The highest righteousness takes action, and it has its reason for acting this way;

6. The highest propriety takes action, and when no one responds to it, then it angrily rolls up its sleeves and forces people to comply.

 

7. Therefore, when the Way is lost, only then do we have virtue;

8. When virtue is lost, only then do we have humanity;

9. When humanity is lost, only then do we have righteousness;

10. And when righteousness is lost, only then do we have propriety.

 

11. As for propriety, it's but the thin edge of loyalty and sincerity, and the beginning of disorder.

12. And foreknowledge is but the flower of the Way, and the beginning of stupidity.

 

Be well!

[Meson]

Edited August 17, 2009 by Meson

[Creation]

Nobody cultivates in a vacuum.

 

A high level teacher can teach by direct energetic transmission. Why would such a teacher do this for a person who would not use it rightly?

 

If one is initiated into a lineage, it is only natural that the masters of the lineage will not let you access the knowledge and power in the lineage if they don't think will use it rightly.

 

Of course, depending on your karma you can make progress without such help, and then perhaps virtue isn't so important for your cultivation. That does not mean it is not important at all, of course... I think many "virtues" at their root are not just rules, but go hand in hand with energetic and mental cultivation.

[Li TaoRen]

some abilities can certainly be cultivated without virtue. There have always been "dark" sorcerers and such. The dark path is always ultimately self-destructive. A non-virtuous person will not be looked after by divine beings, but will be involved with malevolent spiritual entities. It is the difference between Yoda and Darth Vader.

[Stigweard]

Regardless of whether 'abilities' can or cannot be attained without virtue the central framework of this forum (well at least I think so) is to help us develop further in the way of Tao. Within that framework then my view is that the cultivation of virtue is in fact the pivotal and most essential practice that the aspirant can engage in.

[Marblehead]

Regardless of whether 'abilities' can or cannot be attained without virtue the central framework of this forum (well at least I think so) is to help us develop further in the way of Tao. Within that framework then my view is that the cultivation of virtue is in fact the pivotal and most essential practice that the aspirant can engage in.

 

Is that called drawing the line in the sand?

 

I agree though. We all have our own personal goals and aspirations. But I think that at the roots of each one of us is the wish (I didn't want to use the word desire) for inner peace and contentment. I also believe that when our Tao virtue becomes instinctual rather than a conscious effort we will have found inner peace and contentment.

 

As to the cultivation of Tao virtue, this is an individual process. Each of us are at different points along our path toward awareness.

 

Therefore, I think that if we look at Chapter 38 of the Tao Te Ching in reverse order we can identify where we are at present (if we are truely honest with ourself) and we can see how much more work we have to do.

 

Be well!

[Guest allan]

We all have our own personal goals and aspirations. But I think that at the roots of each one of us is the wish (I didn't want to use the word desire) for inner peace and contentment. I also believe that when our Tao virtue becomes instinctual rather than a conscious effort we will have found inner peace and contentment.

 

As to the cultivation of Tao virtue, this is an individual process. Each of us are at different points along our path toward awareness.

 

Therefore, I think that if we look at Chapter 38 of the Tao Te Ching in reverse order we can identify where we are at present (if we are truely honest with ourself) and we can see how much more work we have to do.

 

Be well!

 

 

In addition, the ancients, the Book of Changes, and the Zhen Ren talked about the right person for Tao.

 

In simpler terms, the virtuous could be the right ones for Tao while the evil gets rejected by Heaven!

[Marblehead]

In addition, the ancients, the Book of Changes, and the Zhen Ren talked about the right person for Tao.

 

In simpler terms, the virtuous could be the right ones for Tao while the evil gets rejected by Heaven!

 

Hi Allan,

 

Yes, Chuang Tzu spoke on this briefly. I wouldn't normally discuss this subject as I do not hold to a concept of heaven as in 'heaven and hell'. To me those are two different states of being of a man/woman.

 

Chuang Tzu did also speak on the concept of 'the right person' for this or that. I would normally rely on my frequently used phrase that "we each have our own set of capabilities and capacities" and let it go at that without making judgement.

 

Basically, if one is doing the best at being all that they can be what more could anyone ask of them?

 

Chuang Tzu once claimed that he was content to drag his tail in the mud. Apparently, at that moment in time, he felt that he was doing the best he could considering all variables.

 

Be well!

[taocultivator]

The Tao speaks of the five Virtues as being

 

 

Benevolence

 

Wisdom

 

Trust

 

Righteousness

 

Propriety

[Marblehead]

Hi Taocultivator,

 

Yep. That is true. And the way they are listed is pretty much the hierarchy from the highest to the meanest isn't it?

 

Be well!

[hyok]

the concept of virtue has been on my mind lately, and I am thinking that, within the Tao, the realization of what is perceived as virtuous is wholly grounded on the idea of enduring. The Tao must endure and all else becomes meaningless in the face of this - even the concept of virtue. So yes, virtue without "virtue" is very, very important in the scheme of things. Personal virtue in its energetic/karmic effects on others must be critically analyzed by the adept to achieve internal balance.

Edited August 22, 2009 by hyok

[Marblehead]

the concept of virtue has been on my mind lately, and I am thinking that, within the Tao, the realization of what is perceived as virtuous is wholly grounded on the idea of enduring. The Tao must endure and all else becomes meaningless in the face of this - even the concept of virtue. So yes, virtue without "virtue" is very, very important in the scheme of things. Personal virtue in its energetic/karmic effects on others must be critically analyzed by the adept to achieve internal balance.

 

Truely an excellent post, in my opinion!

 

Be well!

[Guest allan]

Edited August 23, 2009 by allan

[Marblehead]