Abortion...

[October Gray]

I'm not quite sure this is the right place to post this, but how can someone justify killing a child and experimenting on a fetus?

 

I would really love to hear your views on said topic. Perhaps I just feel that human life is not something to be delt with so lightly as most people I feel are doing. It upsets me to the point that I break at times, and I need different perspectives and views.

 

Thank you for your time, and I apologize if this is not the right thing to be posting here...

[sabin1star]

[edited]

Edited August 23, 2009 by sabin1star

[October Gray]

You're right, I apologize. I meant to receive Hindu, Buddhist, or Daoist perspectives. I'll keep in mind to phrase things better in the future.

[Marblehead]

Hi October,

 

I will feed this from my Taoist perspective.

 

But first, I must state that I do not believe a fetus is a child until the cord has been cut and it is breathing. Therefore regarding a fetus I view it as an egg, not a chicken. However. I do not directly support abortion but I am a strong pro-choice supporter.

 

Okay. That said, I feel I have free will to do anything I wish to do to may own body. Afterall, it is mine and mine alone. Therefore, I must afford this same free will to every other living person who has consciousness.

 

So, for me to tell a woman that she cannot have abortion and donate the fetus to medical science is not a right I or anyone else has. If an abortion is going to be had there might as well be some use made of the fetus as opposed to just throwing it in a trash can.

 

Taoist philosophy does not speak to the issue so all I can do is base my beliefs on what the philosophy does speak to.

 

Be well!

[Mal]

[Zhuo Ming-Dao]

I will provide the historical perspective:

 

In the China in which Taoism and Confucianism arose, there would only be one reason in which a woman would ever consider abortion... and that, of course, was in the case of infidelity or rape. Under these particular circumstances, a woman could theoretically seek out a doctor whom she trusted to keep her secret and have him give her herbs and acupuncture designed to bring on her period. This, though, had to been done in the first month or two of pregnancy in order to work safely.

 

Of course, since Confucianism and Chinese society in general considered infidelity and rape to be terribly defiling and a absolute failure of the woman's role in society, they were something that would bring down immense shame and possible desolation onto the woman and her family if this became public knowledge. A good Taoist might have a more open and understanding view of the woman, but even s/he would have to go with the general flow of society or leave society.

 

Most of what women devoted their religious and spiritual pursuits to in this regard, was making babies, not stopping them. There were countless magical, energetic, herbal, and prayer-based practices devoted to increasing fertility and guaranteeing a safe birth and healthy baby. Remember, this religion arose in a time when most babies died in the womb or in their first year, hence it was customary to not name the baby until it reached its first birthday so that the parents would not get too attached. In the meantime, they would call it things like Craphead, or Turtle Egg, or other insults in order to make the baby less appealing to demons and nature spirits that might attack it.

 

Similarly, the Buddhists (and eventually the Taoists too) prayed primarily to Guan Yin for a baby and then for the baby's safety. And also, to increase their odds at getting a boy to continue the family line.

 

Really, the question of abortion as it currently exists today is a totally and incomprehensibly foreign question to most pre-modern people, and particularly the Chinese. It only really appeared in China for the first time in any way after the communist ban on more than one child per family.

[Zhuo Ming-Dao]

_______________________________________________

 

Now my personal view:

 

In think that the act of making a baby is the most spiritual and beautiful thing that a human being can do. It is so powerful and transformative that the later Taoists formulated their whole spiritual practice around duplicating the process spiritually and alchemically in order to create the spiritual fetus in their womb (the dan tien), allowing men to also experience that ultimate act of creation.

 

Also, as a man who has felt a baby grow in his wife and then lost that child, I could never imagine myself deliberately and willfully causing this to occur. To me, emotionally and spiritually, it would be no different from taking a mature life. And to those who say that it is not a baby until the umbilical cord is cut... I can only imagine and hope that they are people who have never had a baby of their own. Once you feel your child kick you and react to your touch, it can no longer be "just" a fetus.

 

That said, I do not judge others for the decisions that they make and I would not think of denying a person the ability to make those decisions. I did not personally come to these conclusions until after I had been personally faced with both life and death. You cannot impose this kind of love and compassion onto someone, you can only hope that they someday find it on their own.

[宁]

Dear Zhuo-Ming Dao, let me fist say that you are a breath of fresh air in our community, for both your wise insights and thoughts on Taoist and Buddhist history and philosophy. I for one greately appreciate your posts.

Having a son I can only imagine your feelings about the loss of a baby...

 

I must confess that I am very-very interested in the Taoist practices related to women, fertility, pregnancy and birth, and also related to growing a healthy and fully-developed child. If you wish, we can start a thread dedicated to this... Or at least you can point to a direction of search, that you feel it's appropriate.

 

Thanks

 

L1

[Marblehead]

Without voicing my opinion I would like to only point out that infanticide has existed in China from at least as far back as wtitten history and is still practiced today. This is primarily with female infants.

 

Be well!

[Wayfarer64]

_______________________________________________

 

Now my personal view:

 

In think that the act of making a baby is the most spiritual and beautiful thing that a human being can do. It is so powerful and transformative that the later Taoists formulated their whole spiritual practice around duplicating the process spiritually and alchemically in order to create the spiritual fetus in their womb (the dan tien), allowing men to also experience that ultimate act of creation.

 

Also, as a man who has felt a baby grow in his wife and then lost that child, I could never imagine myself deliberately and willfully causing this to occur. To me, emotionally and spiritually, it would be no different from taking a mature life. And to those who say that it is not a baby until the umbilical cord is cut... I can only imagine and hope that they are people who have never had a baby of their own. Once you feel your child kick you and react to your touch, it can no longer be "just" a fetus.

 

That said, I do not judge others for the decisions that they make and I would not think of denying a person the ability to make those decisions. I did not personally come to these conclusions until after I had been personally faced with both life and death. You cannot impose this kind of love and compassion onto someone, you can only hope that they someday find it on their own.

 

Thank you for sharing these insights. They make the various aspects of this issue clear on so many levels!

 

I wish no one had to ever make such a choice -

 

It is the sad truth that I have paid for 2 abortions. One for my sister when she was raped, and another for a 17 year old girl who was pregnant by some-one else. She was in no condition to be a mom at that time...

 

Like any violence it is the choice of last resort...

[King Kabalabhati]

I think Zhuo put it really well and it resonated.

 

The heart can see these things more purely than the analytic brain, which will always find justification for any act of violence. Still, even if you've committed such murder, life must go on and hopefully we learn as we progress.

Edited August 18, 2009 by King Kabalabhati

[Wayfarer64]

I think Zhuo put it really well and it resonated.

 

The heart can see these things more purely than the analytic brain, which will always find justification for any act of violence. Still, even if you've committed such murder, life must go on and hopefully we learn as we progress.

 

The choice to participate in violence has always existed...But it was a very long time before some-one who refused to hunt and kill still got a share of the food...Choosing NOT to do violence is a modern concept...

 

In the world we share some violence does not even need justification, the need for swift and able response to actual or even perceived danger & harm is sometimes needed. -( I do not think that invading Iraq was one of those by the way!)

 

The supposed lack of violence anywhere is a fallacy. This is a violent universe -natural and man-made mayhem is rife...

 

To place ones' self above it does a hypocritical injustice to those who's lives are dis-affected by the choice of non-violence. One is not always better than the other- just usually so...

 

love to all-

[King Kabalabhati]

The choice to participate in violence has always existed...But it was a very long time before some-one who refused to hunt and kill still got a share of the food...Choosing NOT to do violence is a modern concept...

 

In the world we share some violence does not even need justification, the need for swift and able response to actual or even perceived danger & harm is sometimes needed. -( I do not think that invading Iraq was one of those by the way!)

 

The supposed lack of violence anywhere is a fallacy. This is a violent universe -natural and man-made mayhem is rife...

 

To place ones' self above it does a hypocritical injustice to those who's lives are dis-affected by the choice of non-violence. One is not always better than the other- just usually so...

 

love to all-

 

I replied, then read your post again realised I had nothing to add.. love and respect.

Edited August 18, 2009 by King Kabalabhati

[Wayfarer64]

There is truth in this, but we ARE living modern times and talking specifically about (modern) abortion. Well, at least I am. And it is not to say this is not a violent universe, but we still need to use our own perception to see what killing is necessary and what is not. And I realise not all have a clear perception regarding things like abortion, because it is often coloured by culture and societal customs.

 

I'm not sure if life has always been based on bloodshed everywhere. Of this I have no reliable information, although much of human history is very violent.

 

 

I agree a planned abortion is a murder. But the reality is that some few of these unwanted pregnancies could not be prevented through choice- The sexual act was forced or the child/woman was not emotionally/mentally equipt to have made an other but...the poor choice of unprotected sex...

 

Consiquences can be changed in these modern times thru acts of kindness or violence, these can even be one in the same. I concidered supporting the abortions that I did - acts of kindness to the pregnant women involved. To some i was supporting murder. It is the same thing. Just different view points challange the meaning of it...

[Marblehead]

Hi All,

 

I just want to say that I respect the views of everyone who has made comment on this subject.

 

Be well!

[~jK~]

I'm not quite sure this is the right place to post this, but how can someone justify killing a child and experimenting on a fetus?

 

I would really love to hear your views on said topic. Perhaps I just feel that human life is not something to be delt with so lightly as most people I feel are doing. It upsets me to the point that I break at times, and I need different perspectives and views.

 

Thank you for your time, and I apologize if this is not the right thing to be posting here...

 

Although a person's birthday is calculated from 10 months before their being born,

the Chinese see life beginning from the time a baby makes the first sound.

Can a child exist within humanity without making a mark?

Before that time a spirit does not resiide in body.

[Vajrahridaya]

There's some Hindu or Buddhist text I read many years ago that states that the mind stream (soul) doesn't enter the womb until after the brain and spine has developed enough to hold that persons karmic imprintations? So... I think it's fine if before the end of the first trimester?

 

 

 

Although a person's birthday is calculated from 10 months before their being born,

the Chinese see life beginning from the time a baby makes the first sound.

Can a child exist within humanity without making a mark?

Before that time a spirit does not resiide in body.

 

That's not true, one can remember being in the womb.

[Marblehead]

If I remember correctly from when I was stationed in Korea, a live-birth child is considered one year old when it is born.

 

Happy Trails!

[Andrei]

The soul enter the embrion after 40 days from conception, this is the common belief in taoism and budhism (read it in one of Mantak Chia's books).

 

I have a friend that have the third eye open and can see auras and chakras and organs inside the body and a lot of spiritual stuff and he literally saw when the Hun souls entered the womb of his pregnant wife at the same approximative time from conception. He could see the embrio forming inside the womb of his wife, he knew she is pregnant even before doctors confirmed. One night he wake up and saw in the bedroom darkness three light orbs that were moving in spiral motion above the womb of his wife. The three orbs were of red, yellow and blue colours and were dancing circling arround eachother until they united into a single multicolor orb which entered the womb and illuminated the embrio with the colourful light, which at that point he considered the life or the soul entered the embrio of his future son.

 

I think he is threefold blessed by having a wife, having the third eye open and seeing the life of his son from conception.

[Yoda]

October Gray,

 

Thanks for bringing up this important topic!

 

According to the Ng Yin Do Pai school of Taoism, getting an abortion commonly leads the incoming soul to get stuck between the yin and yang dimensions... they have already shed much of their yin awarenesses and are in limbo. Getting an abortion even at an early stage or having a miscarriage can lead to the soul getting stuck and being extremely uncomfortable for even many years before hopefully making it back to the yin dimension and starting over.

 

By this view, it is obviously best to avoid abortion or miscarriages if at all possible. But if not, then it's a good idea to seek out the help of a qualified teacher to make sure that the soul has found their way to a good place before parting ways.

 

Not only does this take care of the soul in question but it protects the long term luck and karma of the would be mother and father.

 

Using the pill as a contraception is actually a form of intentional miscarriage as well but it does kick in very early in the pregnancy so perhaps it isn't an issue... I don't know.

 

Obviously, if one's luck erodes for any reason it's good to look into the situation more closely.

 

Your pal,

Yoda