why I left Healing Tao/Universal Tao long ago

[sabin1star]

[edited]

Edited August 23, 2009 by sabin1star

[findley]

I think that's a good thing, that you beginning to figure this sort of thing out.

 

After practicing fusion of the five elements for some time, healing sounds, etc... I figured the approach either fake, or so inefficient that it was worthless.

 

I went on to other things-- however I threw Winn out with Chia.

 

PS is Winn still talking to aliens from atlantis ?

 

 

plebelebeebeellbe

[Lucky7Strikes]

Mantak Chia is fake.

 

His methods work. He isn't fake. The most efficient teacher and the best overall system? Probably not.

 

IMHO, moving and standing forms are just ballet when you don't change the relationship between your mind and body. That's where visualization comes in. Visualization has always been a very significant part of Taoist practice.

 

Please do not simply rely on physical techniques. The mind and body guide each other and an imbalanced approach can be dangerous.

[h.uriahr]

So what, the system didnt work for you. That doesnt mean it's not a great system. I dont practice it but that's because it doesnt seem like the system for me. Kunlun ist for everyone either. There is no perfect flavor that works for everyone. It's great that you share your ideas but just because you dont like it doesnt make it an invalid system. By the way you keep name dropping Daniel Reid and his books I'd say that you know him or are him.

[King Kabalabhati]

I wouldn't bash Chia either simply because I feel he's helped me save my marriage, free myself and heal myself. Now how cool is that?

 

Still I'm thankful that you've made me a bit cautious.. I's healthy.

Edited August 19, 2009 by King Kabalabhati

[King Kabalabhati]

So mr. Winn is talking to people from Atlantis? His must be a powerful technique. And to try to badmouth somebody's methods with gossip like this is not very advanced I might say.

 

I don't use every technique from every book by Chia. I try to go by feel. If I'm feeling too fiery I don't do Scrotal compression or Power Lock. Instead I do Tao Yin which is very balancing. This is something every practicioner should be aware of, to listen to their body and not just obey instructions. Any harm you do to yourself YOU do to YOURSELF. It's not the tools that hurt but the fools get hurt.

 

But I'm thankful for all views, no matter how aggressive, there's usually something to learn.

Edited August 19, 2009 by King Kabalabhati

[minkus]

IMHO, moving and standing forms are just ballet when you don't change the relationship between your mind and body.

 

Funny things is you can change and strenghten the relationship between mind and body with moving and standing forms. Like chentaiji or pakua while adhering to the principles

[宁]

it's not easy to make one size fit all.

this is the main reason people 'leave' systems...

if they would 'leave' their own frustrations that easily, it would be better.

if not for anything else, than for this reason alone: many-many others had Very good experiences with it

[宁]

I still don't get it...

 

 

PC muscle control, both the anus and urethra, are in MC's books since the beginning.

That is what's in Daniel Reids book...

It's THE SAME PRACTICE.

PLUS Daniel Reid reccomends Mantak Chia's book on sexual training, and comments briefly on them in the book.

Plus his name is Daniel Reid, why do you keep calling him Andrew??

 

[Mal]

and there are warnings right at the start in Chias books about the importance of practicing the entire system, laying a good foundation, and not just doing the sex stuff.

 

Of course I never paid attention

[elcaminante]

Thank you sabin1star for your interesting input.

 

To be honest, I am very suspicious about the method that Chia teaches. I have never met anyone talking to have achieved anything valuable from him. Time goes by quickly, and I wonder what they get from those sexual practices

 

I would like to see more HT students giving their feeback and sharing their experiences here, that would be nice because there is a lot of wrong information out there, and sexual techniques are, most of times, far from being healthy.

 

By the way, I have just heard that Mantak got divorced from Maneewan, some say that he left his wife of many years, in pursuit of a young girl from the local village.

 

Funny enough, Mantak himself described divorce as a result of energy imbalances:

 

"A relationship fails when the spirit of it is not properly cultivated, and you force yourself to "eat" negative, or poisonous, sexual energies without transforming them into positive or neutral energies. When the imbalance in energy becomes strong enough, divorce occurs unless the couple finds another way to correct it".

 

Mantak Chia. Taoist Secret of Love.

Edited August 19, 2009 by elcaminante

[King Kabalabhati]

Rumors... Please don't gimme any more of them. Even if it was true, life can bring surprises even for a master. Maybe he didn't have time for his relationship while teaching all the aspiring masters. Or then it's simply low-end shit talk.

 

Stick with what you know with your arguments, this kind of gossip is only confusing things.

 

BTW I'm not a Chia fanatic, I'm going to place an order on the book by Reid for more perspective.

 

 

 

Thank you sabin1star for your interesting input.

 

To be honest, I am very suspicious about the method that Chia teaches. I have never met anyone talking to have achieved anything valuable from him. Time goes by quickly, and I wonder what they get from those sexual practices

 

I would like to see more HT students giving their feeback and sharing their experiences here, that would be nice because there is a lot of wrong information out there, and sexual techniques are, most of times, far from being healthy.

 

By the way, I have just heard that Mantak got divorced from Maneewan, some say that he left his wife of many years, in pursuit of a young girl from the local village.

 

Funny enough, Mantak himself described divorce as a result of energy imbalances:

Edited August 19, 2009 by King Kabalabhati

[King Kabalabhati]

It's good that people share experiences and opinions such as this. It shows everybody that things aren't black and white. But Chia is very understandably criticised a lot since he's been very popular and successful in his area, selling huge numbers and probably making a lot of money.

 

Many people also feel that since he's so popular there's got to be something wrong with his stuff. And probably there is something wrong since there's so much bad mouth on him. But it doesn't mean the same as "fake", it simply means he is also human and may have been trying to bite more than he can chew, or simply has been inaccurate in translating these traditions. Still there's a lot of good stuff in his books, I have experienced that and obviously many others too. I can't speak about the more advanced methods though, that could be where his assumed "fakeness" lies.

[Lucky7Strikes]

Funny things is you can change and strenghten the relationship between mind and body with moving and standing forms. Like chentaiji or pakua while adhering to the principles

 

Well,

 

You're right about that too. .

[markern]

There are a lot of stuff wrong with Chias stuff and he teaches it poorly and unasafely but that it is all "fake" whatever that means is bullshit. Dirk Al got stream entry (veriified by his teachers) doing Budhist meditation in a Thai monastary but lost it again quickly but then regained it again doing mantak chias stuff. My own teacher has also had huge success with Chias system but from what I can see uses it as a more general energetic support meditation because his main practices has been Vipassana , Dzogchen and other budhist practices.

 

I think what has given these two guys their success in the system is partialy their backgraoun in stuff like vipassana which gave them the concentration necesary to do his stuff easily and correctly and allowed them the stilness somponent that is missing in Chias system. Partialy I think they also, or at least my own teacher I don`t know about Dirk, just did things a little bit differently from Chia. He always does things more yin, more moderate and with more wisdom and more psychology integrated into it. Learning inner smile from my teacher was like learning a completly different practice than when I learnt it from Mantak. Same thing with Iron Shirt. He just naturaly did things in a slightly different way whcih makes it perfectly safe and sound. So there is nothing wrong with the basic alchemy. The problem is one of poor or wrong preperation for the practices in terms of physical health and basic stilling of the mind, adjustments of practices especialy making them more yin and adding a stilness component.

 

Michael winn has largely corrected these things so following his system should probably work out well.

Edited August 19, 2009 by markern

[findley]

Yeah, you people all insist that there are 'several ways' to enlightenment, and claim that 'no path is better than another' and all that crap

 

and here is Winn

 

Respected as a MASTER

 

and yet look at how complicated his 'spiritual work' is;

 

-and it is NOT gossip that he speaks to Atlanteans !

 

 

He is a nut-case ! Off his rocker ! HOW DARE YOU PEOPLE SAY THAT THESE ARE VALID PATHS ! Winn was probably the most dedicated aspirant to enlightenmend, and now he is insane !

 

You are fools to support these false ways !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[King Kabalabhati]

There's no need to follow a madman's path.. But there may be something to learn from him. Besides, I think most people seem more mad than this guy, believing in things that don't exist. At least his delusions are a bit interesting in their eccentricity (is that how you pronounce it?)

[宁]

I remember what MC once said at one seminar:

Every new master that comes from China, the first thing he says is - I'm better than Mantak Chia. Of course the students come and ask me, and I say go and check it out.

And to the rest I have only one thought: the number of practicioners on this planet is far too small. Although I worked very hard to spread the daoist teachings, I only covered less than 0,01 percent.

 

There is enough room for every teacher, and the world need good teachers...

 

The energy in each of the messages speaks more than the messages themselves,

so I have nothing more to add either.

 

It's also about each person's destiny, however you may try, it's really hard to overcome this force...

 

Let it rest, and back to practice

 

L1

[h.uriahr]

Ok so what I want to know is who is this "master" that's questioning Chia's system anyway??

 

I'm pretty sure that if Buddha or Jesus actually parted the skies of the world and handed down a system to the people...they'd be criticized...Oh wait, that already happened.

Edited August 20, 2009 by h.uriahr

[elcaminante]

Ok so what I want to know is who is this "master" that's questioning Chia's system anyway??

 

I'm pretty sure that if Buddha or Jesus actually parted the skies of the world and handed down a system to the people...they'd be criticized...Oh wait, that already happened.

 

The comparison between Jesus or Buddha and Chia is hilarious

 

By the way, just to talk about facts:

 

1) Chia got divorced. He stated that divorce is caused by energetic imbalances.

2) Chia's methods have caused health and physical problems to some students. This is something to pay attention.

3) It is also proved that Chia has plagiarized books and has taken the knowledge from other authors without permission or whatsoever.

Edited August 20, 2009 by elcaminante

[h.uriahr]

The comparison between Jesus or Buddha and Chia is hilarious

 

By the way, just to talk about facts:

 

1) Chia got divorced. He stated that divorce is caused by energetic imbalances.

2) Chia's methods have caused health and physical problems to some students. This is something to pay attention.

3) It is also proved that Chia has plagiarized books and has taken the knowledge from other authors without permission or whatsoever.

 

You've missed the point and you bring up another one with your 3 "facts". All you've done is proven that he's human and if I'm not mistaken, even people like Chang, Liping, Buddha, Jesus, and Mohammud are still human.

 

1) So what? He's not allowed to have faults? Ah you mean he's supposed to be God and have a perfect unity of energy?

2) So what? You're saying that because his system doesnt turn lead into gold every single time, for every single person that it's false and ineffective? Christianity isnt for everyone, nor is Tae Kwon Do, nor is Chia's system. Honda's arent for everyone, eating meat isnt for everyone, putting on your right shoe first isnt for everyone, and every other thing on this planet and beyond.

3) Oops on his part, if true. However, there's nothing new under the sun so basically everything we do today is a ripoff of something else.

 

I've never tried his system. All I've ever done is checked out his website and purchased one book but it's clearly not for me. It doesnt click. Just because it's not for me doesnt mean that I'm going to argue that it's unsafe. There is no universal system. Life is a mountain with many paths. It's not a single lane road going one way to nowhere.

[markern]

You've missed the point and you bring up another one with your 3 "facts". All you've done is proven that he's human and if I'm not mistaken, even people like Chang, Liping, Buddha, Jesus, and Mohammud are still human.

 

1) So what? He's not allowed to have faults? Ah you mean he's supposed to be God and have a perfect unity of energy?

2) So what? You're saying that because his system doesnt turn lead into gold every single time, for every single person that it's false and ineffective? Christianity isnt for everyone, nor is Tae Kwon Do, nor is Chia's system. Honda's arent for everyone, eating meat isnt for everyone, putting on your right shoe first isnt for everyone, and every other thing on this planet and beyond.

3) Oops on his part, if true. However, there's nothing new under the sun so basically everything we do today is a ripoff of something else.

 

I've never tried his system. All I've ever done is checked out his website and purchased one book but it's clearly not for me. It doesnt click. Just because it's not for me doesnt mean that I'm going to argue that it's unsafe. There is no universal system. Life is a mountain with many paths. It's not a single lane road going one way to nowhere.

 

 

Althoguh I argue in another post that Chias system ultimately works int he sence of bringing enlightenment it is true that the proportion of people getting into trouble with it and not getting very far is unusualy high. Compare the amount of trouble of Chias students with that of the average practioner of Tibetan budhism (including varjana energetic meditations etc.) or with AYP students. The difference is huge and there realy is no discussion about that as it has been gone through so thoroughly in the online community over many, many years. It does not help either that much of the problems with the system are there just out of plain stupidity which is why they are so easily corrected by people like michael winn and the most reasonable practioners of the system themselves. By stupidty I am refering to the lack of fundamentals, the incorportaion of a lot of Kan and Li stuff into the fusion practice which aparently created havoc for a lot of people and the forcefull methods used way too soon in iron shirt etc.

[Kundaolinyi]

This is an old topic, however, I came across it while searching something else and I couldn't help but want to add a reply for anyone else who comes across it like me.

 

To begin with, I'm not sure why, but it seems like it's almost human nature to expect that teachers/gurus etc are supposed to be god level in vitue. A divorce, an imperfect system, as many failed students as there are successes... These things clearly PROVE that Mantak Chia is human.

But why do we expect that his marriage, his life, his knowledge, his students, him, to be perfect? Find me the perfect teacher, one without fault, and then come back and judge Mantak Chia.

 

The truth is, Mantak Chia is a man, with strengths and weaknesses. He learned and shared Taoist practices as he learned them to the best of his ability. He developed his school, his business, his books, his mariage, and his students to the best of his ability.. and because he is not a perfect god, somehow that makes all of everything he teaches worthless?

 

 

 

Anyway, I've studied Mantak Chia's work for over a decade now. I've found too that his system is NOT easy to progress in. I've had to modify it, mix it, and combine it with multiple other sources of knowlege to even begin getting a handle on it. Some of the most core and powerful principles I adhear to are derrived from Mantak Chia's system though, and quite simply put, the only reason he has such a high student failure rate is because his system isn't easy. The difficulty level is too high for most people, possibly Michael Winn included. Micahael Winn's posture mechanics are proof that he just doesn't get a lot of it, and his ungrounded thought processes are the result of this failure. Fanciful spiritual dreams, unable to be grounded in the fat phsycial body with terrible postural mechanics that he just can't seem to master.

 

Simply put, a lot of people don't do well with it because it's difficult, and people find it unsafe because it's powerful.

 

The mistake I most often see made with Universe Tao or ANY system with a spiritual component is in the relationship between the phsyical side and the spiritual side. You see people imagining great and wonderful things, feeling their chi etc, all the while their physical bodies are completely out of balance. People tend to use relaxation as a crutch. Sure you can have good chi flow if you go completely limp, but why is your neck and upper back so scrunched and compressed? Relaxation is one of the results of proper developement, not the source of it. There is a difference between relaxed power and just going limp.

 

The bagua is the ultimate balancing tool. In Chia's system, it's used to balance the organs on an emotional level, but it's VITALLY important that the phsyical alignment of the organs be balanced in movement and mechanics by the bagua too. It's all wonderful if you can see and feel and balance your chi when you're limp, but being able to manifest changes into your phsyical body in accordance with those spiritual principles is what opening the conception vessel is all about.

 

Jing->Chi->Shen. We all know this concept. But it's only 1/2 of the practice. If you only do this half, you only ascend the governing vessel. The spiritual power developed by this transmutation must be harnessed and directed back down, so that Shen moves the Chi, and the Chi moves the physical body to change form. Without harnessing the Shen to transform the phsyical body to be more compatible with the spiritual concepts it employs, what results are fanciful and useless spiritual developement that has no connection to what we call the real world. Feel good Hippy stuff is all good, but it's no good if it leads only to ungrounded fantasy.

 

I remember in Iron Shirt Chi Kung I, Chia mentions that westerners have a hard time straigthening their neck's. Go look at pictures of Michael Winn. He's not even close to Mantak Chia's level. And it's not because Mantak Chia is a bad teacher. It's not even because Michael Winn is a bad student. It's because what Chia teaches is REALLY difficult to learn and teach, even for himself.

 

He is a man, teaching the spiritual wisdom and bio-technology beyond that of men. He is no more unqualified to teach than we are unqualified to learn. But we study anyway, and he teaches anyway.

 

What I've come up with is different than Chia's system, but it is still based on the core principles Chia teaches. Everyone must do this. Everyone must make what they learn their own. Chia did this too, as will any of you who wish to progress. There is no perfect system, but the one we create ourselves, for ourselves. It's just how it is. Deal with it.

[PLB]

It is really strange to read the responses after the original post has been removed.

But kind of appropriate at the same time.

Some clothes fit.

[Brother_Thelonious]

Kundalini hit it on the head. I agree with everything he/she says.

 

I am a practitioner of Master Chias system and have studied with him and many of his senior instructors for 6 years, after practicing soaring crane medicinal chi kung and dabbling in other systems for several years (kundalini yoga was my intro to energy work).

 

At times I have wanted to leave it simply because I haven't had the results I wanted as quickly as I wanted. At times I was frustrated by how the system and especially the books are organized. But ultimately I stayed with it (with periodic breaks from practice) because if I actually did the work to meditate and actualize the meditations then it works as prescribed. Simply put its a complex and often challenging system that requires a lot of commitment.

 

But what spiritual path doesn't?

 

I would say that the best part of Mantak Chias system is that it has such a large community of support if you are stuck or having problems in it. I have known so many other students and instructors who have been practicing in it for years and have had great results, but honestly that was probably because they have that level of commitment and support to reinforce their solitary practice.

Edited January 31, 2015 by Brother_Thelonious