why I left Healing Tao/Universal Tao long ago

[henro]

Nice post kundaolinyi… I think it's important to remember that most of the teachers one encounters in daoist practices today are also on their own journey. None of them are perfected, and none of them have perfected the practice. You mention posture issues with Michael Winn, have you ever seen video of Hua Ching Ni doing bagua? His posture doesn't seem to follow the generally accepted guidelines for qigong or martial practice. Many practitioners are put off by Clymann's attitude? And people always mention BKF's weight….. etc, etc.

 

I think one of the main issues with Chia's system is that he has exposed very high level practices to the public, and everyone wants to jump in quickly. They either don't listen to their bodies and/or force the energy before they're ready. We see it all the time on this forum. Not everyone should be doing this stuff...

 

All of these guys have issues, but they do have something to teach. I try to learn from everyone, take the good, dispose of the bad. My bagua/xing yi teacher is constantly studying with teachers all over the world. He believes that no one has all the details. You need to reach out, collect the bits, and find your way.

Edited January 31, 2015 by henro

[Daeluin]

I think one of the main issues with Chia's system is that he has exposed very high level practices to the public, and everyone wants to jump in quickly. They either don't listen to their bodies and/or force the energy before they're ready. We see it all the time on this forum. Not everyone should be doing this stuff...

 

Yes, this is very poignant. We are all unique and have our own highly complex spiritual momentum. I was happy to find answers in the books of this system that helped me understand what I was looking for, but ultimately I allowed the tao to very naturally draw me to a teacher I resonated with before practicing. I simply followed my hearts song, knew I needed to leave the city I was in, chose to move to a place I had somehow ended up visiting unintentionally many times for random reasons, and the house I ended up living in had a person training in this school (not Chia's or Winn's). After the first class I knew it was perfect for me. How could I have known this by looking in a phone book? Everyone's answers come in different ways. It's all about listening to what is real inside.

Edited January 31, 2015 by Daeluin

[dust]

After months of hearing about him, I'm still not sure as to what his methods "do" -- what are these results that people speak of (whether they're real or not)?

 

Maintaining general health? Cultivating energy? Being happy? Or something "more"?

[Daeluin]

After months of hearing about him, I'm still not sure as to what his methods "do" -- what are these results that people speak of (whether they're real or not)?

 

Maintaining general health? Cultivating energy? Being happy? Or something "more"?

 

All of the above and more. There are many books, many approaching different levels of reclaiming health, from exercises to cultivate yin to iron shirt qigong. Much has been converted to use western terms and principles to help simplify these concepts for western audiences. I believe the overall system does lead much deeper down the roads of traditional inner alchemy, from a western perspective. In the end all schools have different methods whether they are eastern or western - what is important is that those who are able to resonate with and practice the methods are led to achieve the traditional results. It is not generally recommended to make judgments from books or dvds alone, so the attention gained by the many books in circulation is a double-edged sword for these systems.

 

The two systems - Healing Tao and Universal Tao - are different. I know that Michael Winn left Mantak Chia 20 years ago when he realized they were both taking the same lineage in different directions. I also sense that Michael tries to be very careful with people's own momentum, providing a stable field for them to accomplish what they need to, both within the specific framework of the school for those who choose that path, and also outside of that framework for those who have their own paths. Michael hosts meditations that are attended by members of the spiritual community from many different paths without discrimination. The autumnal equinox meditation I attended was very taoist, and the short guided meditation period was rooted in simplicity and reached the core of everything I have studied from the classics.

 

Oh, and as to speaking with spirits, this is merely an indication of achievement. Masters should be able to listen to your own shen and guide you based on what you personally need rather than dumping theory on you.

 

As to Atlantis, I've come across too many Atlantean connections in the area I live to dismiss this from lack of scientific evidence. In terms of spiritual evidence, it seems hard to avoid. If that bothers you just ignore it and move on. Either it is triggering a reaction related to your own past which you are not ready to listen to yet, or you have no relation to it and there's no point in giving it energy when you have your own path.

Edited January 31, 2015 by Daeluin

[liminal_luke]

Students who demand perfection of their teachers on every level (harmonious personal relationships, charging very reasonably for teachings yet not suffering financially, humble yet authoritative) have a long search ahead of them. Many have noted Michael Winn´s less than exemplary body mechanics. So what? I wouldn´t learn martial arts from him but it would be a mistake to conclude he has nothing to offer. Master Chia got a divorce. Yawn.

 

I´ve learned so much over the years from people with great spiritual refinement and (sometimes) lousy personal lives.

 

Liminal

[Sahaj Nath]

Students who demand perfection of their teachers on every level (harmonious personal relationships, charging very reasonably for teachings yet not suffering financially, humble yet authoritative) have a long search ahead of them. Many have noted Michael Winn´s less than exemplary body mechanics. So what? I wouldn´t learn martial arts from him but it would be a mistake to conclude he has nothing to offer. Master Chia got a divorce. Yawn.

 

I´ve learned so much over the years from people with great spiritual refinement and (sometimes) lousy personal lives.

 

Liminal

 

never cared much about the personal relationships in a teacher's life. i've always found it common for excellence in one or two areas of endeavor to come at the expense of other areas. not a rule, but very common.

 

but only in the past couple of years have i begun to soften about things like body mechanics. i've always been a bit of Nazi when it came to that kind of thing. if you couldn't demonstrate true excellence in movement, you couldn't possibly have the necessary skill to teach. i was wrong. perfect body mechanics is not a requirement for healing, invigorating, cleansing, or refining the body and its energies. this TTB community has taught me that. took a while for it to sink in, but i'm gettin' it.

[Daeluin]

Students who demand perfection of their teachers on every level (harmonious personal relationships, charging very reasonably for teachings yet not suffering financially, humble yet authoritative) have a long search ahead of them. Many have noted Michael Winn´s less than exemplary body mechanics. So what? I wouldn´t learn martial arts from him but it would be a mistake to conclude he has nothing to offer. Master Chia got a divorce. Yawn.

 

I´ve learned so much over the years from people with great spiritual refinement and (sometimes) lousy personal lives.

 

Liminal

 

The perfection we look for is not always apparent when it crosses our path. It is well for us to remember that those who cultivate tao to the higher levels place themselves low by necessity, and will not appear externally as much at all. Should we hope to learn from such a one, we too must lower ourselves or they will slip by invisibly.

 

The root of tao is subtle and exists between the lines. Much can be learned on the surface, but to get deeper one must get over one's self.

[henro]

The best pro golfers have coaches who will never play as well as them, and who may never progress further in their own game. Michael Jordan and Phil Jackson, the list is endless.

 

But a great coach, like a great teacher, can help you push your own game/practice in ways that you've never thought of. Likewise, not all good players and practitioners make good teachers or coaches. At least that's been my experience…

[Kundaolinyi]

As the one who revived this topic in the interest of defending Mantak Chia, I feel like such a fool for insulting Michael Winn, provoking others to defend him like I did for Mantak Chia. It's so easy to criticize.

 

Although I prefer Mantak Chia's work, for myself, I don't doubt that someone could get something out of Winn's work.

 

As for my Criticism of Michael Winn's postural mechanics, I should not have. There are many areas of expertise to have, there are many skills to develop, and one person's focus will differ from another person's. I have found, in my own practice, that opening the posture in accordance with Daoist principals grounds my spiritual development by being the outlet for it directly into the physical body, as nature intended. Because I value this very basic principle so dearly, I have clearly developed a bias for those who also do. It was wrong of me to be elitist about it though.

 

I don't want to get into the Atlantis thing, therefor I'll just say that I don't know anything about Atlantis and am not pursuing research into this area at this time. For this reason, I'll refrain from criticizing Michael Winn, or anyone else on this topic.

[thelerner]

I think people are often damned by success. A person is a great teacher, what started as a small class where they intimately knew each student becomes a large class. That becomes seminars where you can't know anyone too personally. Then comes books and videos. As the teacher moves further from the student so much is lost. Good teachings turn bad when given to all, especially without a teachers feedback and attention.

 

Anything powerful can cut both ways.

[Kundaolinyi]

I think people are often damned by success. A person is a great teacher, what started as a small class where they intimately knew each student becomes a large class. That becomes seminars where you can't know anyone too personally. Then comes books and videos. As the teacher moves further from the student so much is lost. Good teachings turn bad when given to all, especially without a teachers feedback and attention.

 

Anything powerful can cut both ways.

Although I agree that teachers become more heavily scrutinized as they gain success, I'm not sure if I can agree that spreading out is a bad thing. You have to remember that meditation, martial arts, etc.. has been taught by direct transmission for all of history, which is why those teaching methods work. Globalization of material through books and DVDs is new, so it's no surprise that this kind of teaching doesn't work very well... yet.

 

Yet.

 

Who's to say it wont in the future? I look ahead, and I see Virtual Reality devices like the Oculus Rift, and holographic devices like Microsoft's holoLense, and I can't help but think that this kind of mass teaching of eastern material is in its infancy, and can only grow. Fifty years from now, or a hundred, people probably will no longer say "you can't learn this without direct transmission from a teacher."

 

Author's like Mantak Chia have taken brave steps to teach the world through books and DVDs. A lot of people just want to cash in on a booming business too, it's true. You can't deny that Chia has made some money along the way as well. I don't think that's the fault of the medium though, it's the fault of the state of our capitalist society, and the kind of characters it develops. The future could be really terrible, and technology could ruin everything natural, raping the DAO... or it could be a really cool time for dedicated individuals who cannot otherwise afford to travel the world looking for the right teacher.

 

Good teachers still have to take those steps now, and risk the bad in it, to develop the way to reach more people effectively. Even within the context of books and DVDs only, there's still a lot that can be done to improve communicating eastern concepts to westerners. There's also a lot of work to be done in developing a better way for people who don't live in a temple. Beyond that, new mediums will become available. The old ways aren't actually that good, they're just the only thing anyone has come up with that works SO FAR. In actuality, direct transmission to a few students is pretty pathetic. It's inefficient. Teachers need to keep working towards future, and shouldn't avoid it just because modernization doesn't work well YET. It's a very exciting time, in the grander scheme of things. It's just slow moving enough that not everyone sees the potential yet.

[freeform]

My introduction to Taoist practices was through Chia's books. It opened a whole new world to me many years ago - so I'm thankful for that.

 

I did look deeper into the system, bought many of the books, met a couple of teachers of the system and grew very uncomfortable with it.

 

Firstly I noticed that many of the books were simply cashing in on Taoist training - that was clearly the aim of them ('multiorgasmic' series being one example, at least one completely plagiarised book being another). I also noticed a tendency with some of the teachers and students to develop sexual deviancy - there was an obvious vibe - and certainly one of the teachers clearly attempted and probably did sleep with a large number of his students.

 

Further to that I noticed that many students simply did not show any of the virtues that accompany spiritual development.

 

After a number of years of practicing only some of the foundational HT practices that I was comfortable with, I serendipitously met a legitemate teacher and within a few seconds I recognised the difference. With one touch he gave me a bigger energetic shift and deep understanding of Taoism than the couple of years of reading, training and meeting people within the HT system.

 

I'm glad to have come across Chia's material, and glad to have moved away from it when I did.

Edited February 6, 2015 by freeform

[Jox]

After a number of years of practicing only some of the foundational HT practices that I was comfortable with, I serendipitously met a legitemate teacher and within a few seconds I recognised the difference. With one touch he gave me a bigger energetic shift and deep understanding of Taoism than the couple of years of reading, training and meeting people within the HT system.

 

I'm glad to have come across Chia's material, and glad to have moved away from it when I did.

 

Loks like you get an empowerment, which changed your assembly point ... May you share to us, who is your legitimate teacher or which school you belong to?

Edited February 7, 2015 by Jox

[freeform]

 

Loks like you get an empowerment, which changed your assembly point ... May you share to us, who is your legitimate teacher or which school you belong to?

 

I'm more than happy to discuss that over pm if you'd like.

[Jox]

I'm more than happy to discuss that over pm if you'd like.

 

Hi freeform ... I just asked for the name of your school or teacher ... why to go "behind the door", for such a simple question ... so, let us know here openly ... 

 

Peace, Jox 

[Josama]

I think that's a good thing, that you beginning to figure this sort of thing out.

 

After practicing fusion of the five elements for some time, healing sounds, etc... I figured the approach either fake, or so inefficient that it was worthless.

 

I went on to other things-- however I threw Winn out with Chia.

 

PS is Winn still talking to aliens from atlantis ?

 

 

plebelebeebeellbe http://thetaobums.com/public/style_emoticons/#EMO_DIR#/wacko.gif

I don't know about Atlantis, but if you think that there are no other races out there who are much more advanced technology and spiritually than us then I would urge you to think again.

Concerning Aliens on Earth, it is evident today that the pyramids were not built by humans. Scientists believe at the moment they were built by a dead ancient civilization, but what if they were built by extra-terresterial instead?

 

Also, have you never wondered why in ancient times, in nearly every country, the people reverred serveral Gods, what if those were Aliens really?

 

Furthermore, there is still the Red Planet. You know the planet that's supposed to enter our solar system and approach Earth every 2000 to 3000 years? Wouldn't it have been possible for another race living on that planet to come to Earth during on of it's cyclings?

 

Finally, I want to remind you that the Universe is ever expanding and that there can be enourmous time gaps between different galaxies. Ours is still young while there are much older ones out there...

Edited February 16, 2015 by Josama

[vonkrankenhaus]

Re:

-----

"Concerning Aliens on Earth, it is evident today that the pyramids were not built by humans. Scientists believe at the moment they were built by a dead ancient civilization, but what if they were built by extra-terresterial instead?"

-----

 

It is not "evident" at all that the pyramids were not built by humans. That is to say, no real evidence clearly showing such a thing to have happened.

 

The true history of humanity on Earth is not really known, and has been actively covered up. There was recently a news item showing that the Smithsonian had covered up evidence of giants existing in America.

 

The article was titled "SMITHSONIAN ADMITS TO DESTRUCTION OF THOUSANDS OF GIANT HUMAN SKELETONS IN EARLY 1900′S".

 

The entire idea of humans or humanoids getting into tin cans and driving from one rock to another for light-years seems to me just a 1950s way to get people to build jets, rockets, and missiles. The whole phenomenon is a product of industry and media, a convenient "thought virus".

 

In reality, "alien" life forms are continually travelling the cosmos in the best space ships ever designed - inert microbial life forms.

 

In around 1.5 billion years, if surviving the current and future crises of planned idiocy and selective breeding and domestication, people of Earth will go move to Mars when the Earth becomes uninhabitable. This will create legends of space travellers who seeded the existing life on that planet.

 

When we get to the point where we understand how to make an interstellar space ship, we will understand that we never needed it. We are already on all habitable planets in some form. For very short distances, physical tin can ships do work, but will never work for interstellar distances.

 

So Michael Winn might just be appealing to the "new age" type of customers he seeks, or he may really be onto something.

 

Vibration, including thought, and especially "will", can travel any distance more or less instantly.

 

Then again, in terms of cosmic distances, by far the easiest vibrations and thoughts to pick up are the ones generated right here on Earth.

 

-VonKrankenhaus

[4bsolute]

From my life experience I can tell you the most important thing:

 

Your level of consciousness decides what you see and understand.

 

My most favorite explanation: Your consciousness is like a key. A multi-purpose-key for many keyholes. And the greater your level of consciousness is, the more keyholes you can unlock. And keyholes are everywhere around you, endlessly. Keyholes = wisdom that you are then allowed (by your own allowance of expanding your consciousness first, no 3rd party as falsely believed as "angels" or "masters" who give something to you) to bring forth into this dense reality.

 

The source of pure consciousness is the energetic source of your physical heart, the very center of your entire being, that projects itself outward into this reality.

 

That means if your mind can grasp universal truth's or is beginning to .. then you can hear and read and see whatever it is, and you will understand it. You will understand universal truth's in a MC Donalds sign.

 

I meditate and I am still stuck sometimes in the gravity I brought forth playing video games. I consciously discover universal truth's developers have put apparently "by accident" in games. They would never see them as universal truth's but the key is that you do.

 

It is all about you. This all around you here is just a mirror. A very, very, Very powerful and important one. But it just is a mirror of you.

 

Isnt it heavinly and hellish at the same time? Hellish because you see your slackery, you could be so much more! And heavenly when you grasp that you get what you are. And that you dont have to think or operate linearly! You can get everything, right now! Without having to step by step work for it. But who would tell you this on this earth, at this time? Where everyone wants your subscription and feeds you only with tiny drops of information.

 

As far off as I have seen this statement a year ago when I first came across it.. it gets more and more real, the more I put my conscious light into it, every day.

 

This is so powerful.

 

God, allows you to be everything. At all time. Humanity (and also the most part of this forum and it's members) strips you off your powers and calls you nothing. That is why it is so crucial to be with your Self. Especially in these times. You will find everyone when you be with your Self. You find true and authentic connection to everything, when you be with your Self in silence.

 

Fragen / Anregungen / Verbindung - einfach per PM.

Edited February 16, 2015 by 4bsolute

[freeform]

why to go "behind the door", for such a simple question

 

Haha it's not the complexity of the question that's of concern - I would rather keep my teacher's names out of public domain for now.

 

Regarding Michael Winn and his 'friend from Atlantis' - that's not something that puts me off really. Once you start getting into advanced nei dan training and meeting the various people and masters involved, you start to hear some pretty surreal stories! Way more out there than that...

 

Michael is an impressive businessman and seems like a nice enough chap, but watching him stand or move, it's clear to see that his body is still pretty bound up and tight. His 'qi belly' (aka stagnation belly) is also questionable. That doesn't mean he's no good - just that he doesn't exude the qualities of a realised master. This is also evident when you pay close attention to him speaking - (and I don't mean the 'content' or the words he says, but how he talks... 'where' the words are coming from...)

 

[Kundaolinyi]

but only in the past couple of years have i begun to soften about things like body mechanics. i've always been a bit of Nazi when it came to that kind of thing. if you couldn't demonstrate true excellence in movement, you couldn't possibly have the necessary skill to teach. i was wrong. perfect body mechanics is not a requirement for healing, invigorating, cleansing, or refining the body and its energies. this TTB community has taught me that. took a while for it to sink in, but i'm gettin' it.

This is the kind of thing I can't entirely get on with.  Why would the final product of a healing technique be a mangled form that'll just harm you again?  If you have a bad relationship with gravity, then you haven't healed all the way.  If you can't even stand up straight, how can you be considered healed?  It's ridiculous (sorry, no offense, this is just my thinking).

 

I guess I learned about healing differently.  Step 1 cleanse, step 2 flush, step 3 energize.  Step 1 and 2 wont reach everywhere if things aren't aligned, Step 3 will harm you if the energy is knock'n about making tense spots and whatnot. 

 

It's not just about 'judging' a teacher, it's very important to healing.  Basics are everything.

[Sahaj Nath]

This is the kind of thing I can't entirely get on with.  Why would the final product of a healing technique be a mangled form that'll just harm you again?  If you have a bad relationship with gravity, then you haven't healed all the way.  If you can't even stand up straight, how can you be considered healed?  It's ridiculous (sorry, no offense, this is just my thinking).

 

I guess I learned about healing differently.  Step 1 cleanse, step 2 flush, step 3 energize.  Step 1 and 2 wont reach everywhere if things aren't aligned, Step 3 will harm you if the energy is knock'n about making tense spots and whatnot. 

 

It's not just about 'judging' a teacher, it's very important to healing.  Basics are everything.

 

i'm happy to have a real conversation with you, but if there's no openness on your part to consider another way, then there's no point.

 

no, you didn't learn differently. you learned the EXACT same way that i did, too, which is why i was such a nazi about it for so long. but what i've been able to learn over the years, from the testimony of students here on the boards as well as direct witnessing of sick people healing themselves, is that the way you and i were taught is extremely limited, and unnecessarily so. maybe you'll come around in time, and maybe you won't. but consider this:

 

an obese guy needs to change eating habits and to shift into a more physically active lifestyle. what guys like me and you have been saying all these years (essentially) is that he needs a nutrition expert and an Olympic caliber athlete in order to really accomplish anything. that's just not true. the guy can exchange the soft drinks in his diet for tea & real juice, and commit to walking around the block every morning, maybe every evening as well. he could do this with a friend or while listening to music or encouraging self-help lectures. regardless, he's going to experience some real benefits. and as his energy increases, he's gonna want to do more. maybe one day he'll want to become a serious athlete, but if not, that's totally fine as well.  it's all so much simpler than guys like us tend to make them.

 

more directly, i've watched dozens of patients put their cancer into remission of the past... 5 years, let's say. many of them still have bad balance and never wrapped their heads around the internal body mechanics of tai chi or qigong. and yet they show up daily, sincerely, and surrender to the process in a way that has nothing to do with mastering body mechanics. you can pull up videos right now of cancer patients in china or san francisco who are now in remission from terminal cancer. they've been at it for years, and they don't move anything like masters. they're still gettin' it done.

 

this is why i consider myself a student of principles rather than systems. in the beginning i excelled in the area of body mechanics, and it enabled me to pick up other styles very easily. but as a healer, i never limited myself to chinese gong fu. i learned about the shakers of Bali and the Kalahari shamans, and how they related in principle to Yao Feng Bai Liu (Flowing Breeze, Swaying Willows). i saw the miraculous power of spontaneous movement and free expression in a way that i hadn't learned even when studying a form that even emphasizes relaxing into  randomness and chaos (Wuji Hundun).

 

it's a bit of a paradigm shift to realize that we don't need to micro-manage every inch of our bodies to experience healing and transformation. i'm still a lover of excellence and precision in movement, but i no longer see it as the necessity i once did. 

Edited February 26, 2015 by Hundun

[Trunk]

this is why i consider myself a student of principles rather than systems.

 

That's a gem.

[Kundaolinyi]

1. i'm happy to have a real conversation with you, but if there's no openness on your part to consider another way, then there's no point.

 

2. no, you didn't learn differently. you learned the EXACT same way that i did, too, which is why.......yada yada..... maybe you'll come around in time, and maybe you won't. but consider this:

 

3. ........what guys like me and you have been saying all these years (essentially) is that he needs a nutrition expert and an Olympic caliber athlete in order to really accomplish anything......

 

4. more directly, i've watched dozens of patients put their cancer into remission of the past... 5 years, let's say. many of them still have bad balance......

 

5. this is why i consider myself a student of principles rather than systems. in the beginning i excelled in the area of body mechanics, and it enabled me to pick up other styles very easily. but as a healer, i never limited myself to chinese gong fu....

 

6. it's a bit of a paradigm shift to realize that we don't need to micro-manage every inch of our bodies to experience healing and transformation. i'm still a lover of excellence and precision in movement, but i no longer see it as the necessity i once did. 

I've labeled, 1-5, specific points, so to stay organized.  My responses will be labeled accordingly.

 

1. I'm happy to have a real conversation with you too.  I'm not specifically close minded on the topic, I just have had no reason to change my opinion on it as of yet.  I too, could easily accuse you of being close minded as well.  Neither of us have shown any willingness to budge, so calling each other out for not having an open mind is pointless, we are both pots and kettles, and we are both black.  I get it, that you think you're not close minded because you feel like you've 'been there done that' with my perspective, I think you are mistaken.  We should just enjoy the diversity in our perspectives, and hope that we both learn something from discussion.

 

2. I've given a brief overview of some of my philosophy on the basics, and you say you've learned the same way.  Excellent.  I'm not sure why you have taken my abbreviated dissertation on the basics as an indication of the extent of my skill level though.  I keep saying 'foundational basics', I said nothing about my advanced practices, or where I'm at now.  I appreciate that you're taking the position that you've been where I am, and have moved on.  I understand how this works, because I too have taken this position with others on different topics.  I am not yet convinced that this is actually the case with us though, I'll address this more in point number 3.

 

3. This is where your idea of what I'm doing, where I'm at, what my level of understanding etc. has become a strawman.  I'm not saying you did this intentionally, but you're clearly addressing a skill level and knowledge base, here, that is not representative of me, my skills, and my perspective.  That makes the position you're taking, as the wiser more experience practitioner, seem questionable.  I'm not struggling for dominance here, I just want to keep those attitudes you've brought in out of the discussion.  I keep repeating my mantra of 'foundational basics', and you keep talking as if everything I've ever learned has been written here.  I have to admit, this irks me a bit, but I can stay patient and hope we both walk away more knowledgeable.

 

4. "i've watched dozens of patients put their cancer into remission of the past... 5 years, let's say. many of them still have bad balance"  Then they're not fully healed.  The cancer is gone, but the bad balance isn't.  Is that hard to understand?  Some things were healed, some were not.  Simple.  It's an amazing feat, but it's not a complete heal, factually speaking.  Once you have the youth of a child and no ailments, you are healed COMPLETELY.  Curing cancer is great, I love it, but you're talking like it's the end of the road.  The end of the road = back to the basics, this is what I'm saying.

 

5.  Good for you!  I too consider myself to be a student of principles, rather than systems.  I still see no reason to think that my principal, that the basics are the beginning AND the end, is wrong, even after reading what you have written.  I certainly don't limit myself to Chinese Gong Fu either, I'm not sure why you would imply such a thing.  Too much strawman again, probably unintentional.  I'm not accusing you of cheating an argument, communication just doesn't seem to be working between us. 

 

6. That's not a paradime shift, it's fine once you're in a state of auto-regulation to allow the body to do on its own without micro-management.  The cancer patients with bad balance you spoke of are not there, don't be silly.

 

 

What we have here is a philosophical difference.  You seem to be convinced it is a matter of progression, I am convinced that it is a matter of personal prioritization.  For me, once you have progressed all the way, you can then joyfully embrace the basics.  It's a circle.

 

So, I might be mistaken here, but to me it sounds like you've turned your focus to more difficult things to heal, like cancer, but you have done so by lowering your standard for what you consider to be a final outcome, ie- just 'not having cancer' is good enough for you.  If true, that's fine, but it's not my way.

 

I'll admit, my expertise comes from confronting my own Chiari Malformation that I was born with (type 0 or 1), also considered incurable from the western medical community.  I don't have documentation to prove my progress, but I'm about 90-95% symptom free.  Maybe that makes me a low level kid to you, not sure, but I admit, I haven't healed cancer as of yet.  Never had it, never treated someone with it.  Have you actually cured cancer?  Or was that a bunch of talk?  It's okay, you don't have to be the big great master to have an opinion.  Just say what's on your mind, it's all good.

[Sahaj Nath]

it wasn't my intention to come off as adversarial or condescending to you, but your response is pretty heavy-handed. can you really not see how your initial post that started this conversation might make someone wonder if you were open to another way of seeing things? somehow you've interpreted our exchange as jockeying for superiority. you can have it.

 

"Then they're not fully healed.  The cancer is gone, but the bad balance isn't. Is that hard to understand?"

 

nope, not hard to understand at all. someone is cured of a terminal condition, and your attitude is, "yeah, but their balance is still off. how can that be considered healed?"

 

this is a reasonable position to you.

 

i've got nothing.

Edited February 27, 2015 by Hundun

[Kundaolinyi]

it wasn't my intention to come off as adversarial or condescending to you, but your response is pretty heavy-handed. can you really not see how your initial post that started this conversation might make someone wonder if you were open to another way of seeing things? somehow you've interpreted our exchange as jockeying for superiority. you can have it.

 

"Then they're not fully healed.  The cancer is gone, but the bad balance isn't. Is that hard to understand?"

 

nope, not hard to understand at all. someone is cured of a terminal condition, and your attitude is, "yeah, but their balance is still off. how can that be considered healed?"

 

this is a reasonable position to you.

 

i've got nothing.

Okay, I admit, maybe I can sound close minded.  I think you do too though.  Can you really not see how comments like "maybe you'll come around in time" come off as if you're 'teaching down' at me?  As if I'm in ignorance, and you need to enlighten me...  -That's where my defensiveness is coming from.  I totally don't want to 'jocky for superiority', I'm hoping we can somehow get passed that.  The fact that you're saying now, that "it wasn't my intention to come off as adversarial or condescending" makes me think we have a chance at comunicating.  Let's move on.

 

 

"someone is cured of a terminal condition, and your attitude is, "yeah, but their balance is still off. how can that be considered healed?"" 

 

...but you said they've been cancer free for 5 years!  The cancer is gone, work on something else.