Taoism and the dark night on the soul

[Pietro]

In another thread it was mentioned that one of the painful bits we need to go through is what is called the Dark Night of the Soul. The term is actually Christian, and by my very limited understanding represent a period of pain, depression, isolation and deep suffering that is seen as needed for a person on a spiritual path to purge himself (or herself). The term comes from a book from S.Giovanni de la Croce (St John of the Cross ?) in the 16th century.

 

Now here is the question does everybody go through a dark night of the soul? And is it inevitable?

 

I will suggest here that for Taoists it is not inevitable.

 

This comes out of a lesson that Bruce gave many years ago (I think Ulm, 2000, workshop on the 16 nei gung system).

 

What we were told is that through the dissolving process energy gets released. Now as this energy is released it needs the body to be clear enough to recycle it. If this does not happen it can remain again stuck, ataching to preexisting blocks. A bit like if you have some dirt on a river in two different points, and you release the one which is more near the source, the debris will go down and join the one downstream. Now you don't have two blockages anymore, but one... but bigger, much bigger.

 

So the idea is that as the energy is released, it makes a huge difference if the channel downstream is clear or not. The channel downstream, in this explenation, would be the physical body, the energetic body, maybe even the emotional body (respect to the mental), and so on.

 

I recall that according to Bruce teachings the human body is actually composed of 8 bodies, that go from physical, to energetic, to emotionals, mental, psychic, karmic/causal, body of identity, tao.

 

So the taoist way is to be always aware of its physical body, and make sure through qi gung, and calisthenic practices, and diet and all the rest that your connection to the eart is clear. If this is there, then the dark night of the soul would not be so dark.

 

Viceversa if the physical body is not clear, and we don't start from the physical body, then whateer we go through, and release, will work its way to our other bodies, and get stuck there. So a tradition that does not start with phisical practices, but with mental or emotional ones, runs the risk of making a person going through some harsh times before "going back to see the light".

 

If this is true then we should have darker night of the soul in traditions that have a stronger phisical component.

So Buddhism more than Taoism.

Buddhism more than Yoga.

Zen more than chan.

Christian more than Buddhism.

 

Thoughts?

 

Emotions?

 

Actions?

[Vajrahridaya]

That dark night is really just the experience of coming up against own's own self created walls of perception that limit love, compassion, and consciousness, through various conditional identifications that we are conditioned to identify with and hold as absolute truths... like, "THAT IS MY DAD" that just died, "THAT IS MY MOTHER" who just ran from me at 10.... etc.

 

Some identify further with these pains, these knots of identity and reify more, to the point of total self destruction and nihilism.

 

Those on wisdom paths, contemplate the wisdom teachings and end up on the other side of them freer and wiser.

[Sunya]

good topic. I think that its tough to say. I think for traditions that employ clearing of channels like Qi Gong, Tantra (Buddhist, Hindu) and other paths would have much less to deal with. the Christian Mystic, Jim Marion, wrote that in his experience the Dark Night is the clearing out of negativities once the pure subtle energies are activated in the being through contemplation. He just suggests surrendering. which is very good advice. this is basically what Kundalini teachers say as well. But the methods employed by Christian mystics aren't as robust as the ones used in the more... experienced? traditions from Asia. and mostly be concentration meditations.

 

Buddhism specifically is tough to say. in Vajrayana there is clearing of channels. in the Tantric and non-tantric Buddhist paths, the Vipassana methods are taught which are not concentration but more of bare awareness techniques, which would help A LOT during emotional upheavals and anything Dark Night related. so I think Buddhist practitioners have very good methods in dealing with negativities that surge forth.

 

I think Qi Gong is great.. I also think learning to take a step back and simply witness whatever arises without discernment or attachment is also great.

 

I think the problems lie in paths that do not have awareness techniques more so than paths that do not learn to work with energy. I think ultimately the best path should utilize both. and the biggest problems would lie in paths that rely solely on concentration like prayer/contemplation etc. maybe this is why the Christian mystics focused so much on the Dark Night? it must've been very strong for them.

[Vajrahridaya]

Buddhism in Vajrayana has lots of physical practices that are very intense but secret and not widely known. So... we get these teachings from the outset. Soooo...

 

Anyway... also I guess your Italian? In Spanish it is San Juan De La Cruz as he was Spanish. His works are considered the most beautiful works in the Spanish language by both Spaniards and Mexicans. I looooooved his work. Wow... to be trapped in a jail cell, forced to uncomfortably stand because the cell was so small, and to transcend that pain and anguish through focusing on the transcendent. Amaaaazing. I've gone through similar pains in my life and did the same, through focus... it works. Bliss of the nature of things is on the other side!

 

 

p.s. In Dzogchen we surrender to Rigpa, which is the blissful experience of the empty nature of all phenomena and experiences.

 

Yes, yes!!!

Edited August 20, 2009 by Vajrahridaya

[nac]

Personally speaking, I have gone though something like a mildly grayish late afternoon of the soul. I'm heartened by the fact that according to Zen, greater the doubt, greater the satori. They say tantra and visualizations can help you bypass this step at the cost of occasionally making you a little crazy.

 

PS. Thought I might as well chip in, since the rest of the Buddha club is already here.

Edited August 20, 2009 by nac

[宁]

I get that sometimes...

I sometimes stop and think, that after all the years of training, i could only from time to time get a glimpse at what is beyond the physical realm.

I truely want to live with a complete perception on reality... if not complete, at least greately enhanced.

That has happened slowly and steadily over the years, but it's so little compared to what is out there.

Basically it's like this: we live two lives, one is the waking life and the other is the time of the night. There is so little that we perceive from the waking life, and little to nothing from the time of night.

 

I had some changes in my life recently which made me travel a bit and see other people, work in different groups... it's no wonder so fiew want to learn more about the unseen: there is so much that one needs to learn about the seen, which is human interaction...

There are so many layers of reality.

Sometimes if feel like i'm moving too slow.

Edited August 21, 2009 by Little1

[Sunya]

Edited August 20, 2009 by mikaelz

[Marblehead]

Well, as the word "Taoism" does appear in the title of the thread I thought I would say that I had many of those dark nights of the soul before I began my Taoist path but have not experienced any since that time.

 

Be well!

[JustARandomPanda]

So the taoist way is to be always aware of its physical body, and make sure through qi gung, and calisthenic practices, and diet and all the rest that your connection to the eart is clear. If this is there, then the dark night of the soul would not be so dark.

 

Viceversa if the physical body is not clear, and we don't start from the physical body, then whateer we go through, and release, will work its way to our other bodies, and get stuck there. So a tradition that does not start with phisical practices, but with mental or emotional ones, runs the risk of making a person going through some harsh times before "going back to see the light".

 

Considering how fat most North Americans are a freight train of pain is headed our way. Sadly, according to the latest WHO statistics the rest of the world will catch up within the next 10 years. Mexico already has.

 

 

I think Qi Gong is great.. I also think learning to take a step back and simply witness whatever arises without discernment or attachment is also great.

 

I always had a sneaky hunch Mr. Spock and Data were secretly closet Taoists.

Edited August 20, 2009 by SereneBlue

[dwai]

In another thread it was mentioned that one of the painful bits we need to go through is what is called the Dark Night of the Soul. The term is actually Christian, and by my very limited understanding represent a period of pain, depression, isolation and deep suffering that is seen as needed for a person on a spiritual path to purge himself (or herself). The term comes from a book from S.Giovanni de la Croce (St John of the Cross ?) in the 16th century.

 

Now here is the question does everybody go through a dark night of the soul? And is it inevitable?

 

I will suggest here that for Taoists it is not inevitable.

 

This comes out of a lesson that Bruce gave many years ago (I think Ulm, 2000, workshop on the 16 nei gung system).

 

What we were told is that through the dissolving process energy gets released. Now as this energy is released it needs the body to be clear enough to recycle it. If this does not happen it can remain again stuck, ataching to preexisting blocks. A bit like if you have some dirt on a river in two different points, and you release the one which is more near the source, the debris will go down and join the one downstream. Now you don't have two blockages anymore, but one... but bigger, much bigger.

 

So the idea is that as the energy is released, it makes a huge difference if the channel downstream is clear or not. The channel downstream, in this explenation, would be the physical body, the energetic body, maybe even the emotional body (respect to the mental), and so on.

 

I recall that according to Bruce teachings the human body is actually composed of 8 bodies, that go from physical, to energetic, to emotionals, mental, psychic, karmic/causal, body of identity, tao.

 

So the taoist way is to be always aware of its physical body, and make sure through qi gung, and calisthenic practices, and diet and all the rest that your connection to the eart is clear. If this is there, then the dark night of the soul would not be so dark.

 

Viceversa if the physical body is not clear, and we don't start from the physical body, then whateer we go through, and release, will work its way to our other bodies, and get stuck there. So a tradition that does not start with phisical practices, but with mental or emotional ones, runs the risk of making a person going through some harsh times before "going back to see the light".

 

If this is true then we should have darker night of the soul in traditions that have a stronger phisical component.

So Buddhism more than Taoism.

Buddhism more than Yoga.

Zen more than chan.

Christian more than Buddhism.

 

Thoughts?

 

Emotions?

 

Actions?

 

Dark night of the Soul is not the same as Ru Ding now is it? Bruce's description of Ru Ding is very perturbing.

[Marblehead]

I always had a sneaky hunch Mr. Spock and Data were secretly closet Taoists.

 

Spock surely was. Don't know about Data.

 

Be well!

Edited August 20, 2009 by Marblehead

[October Gray]

Well, as the word "Taoism" does appear in the title of the thread I thought I would say that I had many of those dark nights of the soul before I began my Taoist path but have not experienced any since that time.

 

Be well!

 

 

All I can really say is the same...

[Taiji Bum]

According to Catholic Mystical Theology the "Dark Night of the Soul" happens ONLY after the "Vision of Illumination" and lasts about 10 years. I have personally always correlated this with the "9 Years Crushing the Void".

[Marblehead]

According to Catholic Mystical Theology the "Dark Night of the Soul" happens ONLY after the "Vision of Illumination" and lasts about 10 years. I have personally always correlated this with the "9 Years Crushing the Void".

 

That's a thought/concept I can accept and I'm an atheist. Thanks for sharing.

 

Be well!

[Chen]

I have no personal experience,but I have read several books about the lives of Orthodox Christian monks .There are descriptions that every one of theme, shortly after their first period of "enlightnment" they are loosing the clarity and they are falling in some kind of depress and a feeling of absense of God.

They beleive that it is a trial from God,everyone knows about it, but a lot of them become discourage,and somehow they are loosing their path.

[markern]

According to Catholic Mystical Theology the "Dark Night of the Soul" happens ONLY after the "Vision of Illumination" and lasts about 10 years. I have personally always correlated this with the "9 Years Crushing the Void".

 

Sounds like the arising and passing away of vipassana but it can be gone through much quicker and is not that hard on everyone.

[ryansmith]

 

 

What we were told is that through the dissolving process energy gets released. Now as this energy is released it needs the body to be clear enough to recycle it. If this does not happen it can remain again stuck, ataching to preexisting blocks. A bit like if you have some dirt on a river in two different points, and you release the one which is more near the source, the debris will go down and join the one downstream. Now you don't have two blockages anymore, but one... but bigger, much bigger.

 

So the idea is that as the energy is released, it makes a huge difference if the channel downstream is clear or not. The channel downstream, in this explenation, would be the physical body, the energetic body, maybe even the emotional body (respect to the mental), and so on.

 

 

 

 

I am currently going through something that is described above. I started KAP roughly a year ago and had some power chakra issues that were gradually dissolving. It got to the point where I was feeling like a million bucks and the issues I had and blockages were pretty well dissolved. However, the past 2 months it feels like there has been a physical blockage, not really emotional, in my third chakra. This happened after a lot of clearing involving the first two charkas in which it felt like a rod of energy had moved all the lower chakra gunk up into the power charka. I can feel kriyas and the kundalini energy gradually dissolving this blockage. Right now it's kind of like there is an iceberg in a free flowing ocean. I just try to surrender to the blockage, do some abdominal massages, and keep up w/ my practices. Some heart chakra throughout my body also helps. Pietro thanks for bringing this up b/c it describes precisely what happened to me and I haven't read anything that documented this type of occurrence.

Edited August 20, 2009 by ryansmith

[Marblehead]

I have no personal experience,but I have read several books about the lives of Orthodox Christian monks .There are descriptions that every one of theme, shortly after their first period of "enlightnment" they are loosing the clarity and they are falling in some kind of depress and a feeling of absense of God.

They beleive that it is a trial from God,everyone knows about it, but a lot of them become discourage,and somehow they are loosing their path.

 

Yes, that is a problem with everyone following a particular path. When we haven't yet had that first experience of Oneness we begin questioning if we are doing the right thing. Indeed, we can loose faith. But these questionings are good, I think, because it allows one to define themself and their goals. (I don't use the word "faith" too often.)

 

Be well!

[Meson]

Edited August 21, 2009 by Meson

[Sunya]

I always had a sneaky hunch Mr. Spock and Data were secretly closet Taoists.[/b][/color]

 

lol where does that come from? I love Data but he is much too conceptual and logical to be a Taoist

[Pietro]