Bloodstream Sermon attributed to Bodhidharma

[contrivedname!]

i have wanted to discuss this piece of zen literature at this forum for a while. i am bit strapped for time right now as i am at work, so i was hoping someone else would start (plus i dont really like leading off topics, though this is something i would really enjoy discussing).

 

Chris

[Sunya]

Edited August 26, 2009 by mikaelz

[contrivedname!]

thanks for posting it mikaelz.

[goldisheavy]

One of my favorite sermons. It's straightforward, to the point, utterly bad ass, just how I like it. None of this "goody two shoes" mushy vibe that I can't stand.

 

It's the ultimate truth for bad asses out there. For uncompromising people. For people who need to get to the bottom of things fast, without diversions. For honest people who can't stand lies and flowery language deceit or confused mysticism.

 

Even a real moron can gain enlightenment after hearing this. You don't need training or further instruction if you understand this text.

 

This text is a lot like Shodoka in spirit. Just "no bullshit" lightning bolt of truth.

Edited August 30, 2009 by goldisheavy

[Vajrahridaya]

This text is a lot like Shodoka in spirit.

 

Sounds a lot like Dzogchen Semsde, which is preliminary Dzogchen, thus it leads to liberated concepts of mind, but not necessarily the entire integration that bears the Jalus (Body of Light/Rainbow Body).

 

Still... Semsde is mostly what you'll find on Dzogchen when one roams the internet. Which is the first of the three Dzogchen teaching cycles, because it uses good wording a lot to help the mind relax it's grasping. Semsde = mind, Longde = space, Menngagde = oral instruction or instruction through symbols, are the traditional three divisions, though they are not separate in essence one generally get's Semsde first in order to prepare the mind for Longde, then Menngagde generally happens in private with your teacher, and can happen through dream inference or meditative vision as well.

[Sunya]

Sounds a lot like Dzogchen Semsde, which is preliminary Dzogchen, thus it leads to liberated concepts of mind, but not necessarily the entire integration that bears the Jalus (Body of Light/Rainbow Body).

 

dude, who cares.

 

comparing everything to Dzogchen is comparing apples to oranges and is fruitless It sounds very close to Mahamudra view and maybe Dzogchen Semsde, but Rainbow Body isn't a big deal to Mahamudra, its only the end-all be-all of Nyingma. other schools don't really care about it. so I don't think Rainbow Body should be mentioned in every thread as a comparison to how high a path leads.

Edited August 30, 2009 by mikaelz

[Vajrahridaya]

dude, who cares.

 

comparing everything to Dzogchen is comparing apples to oranges and is fruitless It sounds very close to Mahamudra view and maybe Dzogchen Semsde, but Rainbow Body isn't a big deal to Mahamudra, its only the end-all be-all of Nyingma. other schools don't really care about it. so I don't think Rainbow Body should be mentioned in every thread as a comparison to how high a path leads.

 

Well, what you think is also not the end all be all, now is it there Mr.?

 

I'll mention it because it is important to me. Ignore it if you wish...

 

p.s. It's also considered a big deal to our Rinpoche... and he's far more educated than both of us put together times as many times you wish to times anything.

Edited August 30, 2009 by Vajrahridaya

[Sunya]

Well, what you think is also not the end all be all, now is it there Mr.?

 

same for you. I just don't see the necessity of mentioning Dzogchen in every thread

 

p.s. It's also considered a big deal to our Rinpoche... and he's far more educated than both of us put together times as many times you wish to times anything.

 

yeah and he teaches from a certain perspective. Rinpoche himself said that practitioners of the Great Transfer (Phowa, which is what Kagyus focus on) achieve the same realization as Dzogchen with the Rainbow Body. Dzogchen is all method, like every form of Buddhism. are Dzogchen masters above Mahamudra masters or Chan masters who don't mention Jalus? I don't think so. Tibetan Buddhists always have a sense of superiority in their lineage and method and they always claim it as the best or the highest. this goes back in history to when lineages competed with each other. You gotta be Rime, and not just about TB but about Buddhism in general.

[Nanashi]

Ah, Daruma. A wise Master indeed.

 

 

Among the "Enlightened," I consider him and Bankei to have the best teachings.

[Vajrahridaya]

You gotta be Rime, and not just about TB but about Buddhism in general.

 

Rime is about all the TB lineages, not about every type of Buddhism. Vajrayana does transcend Zen/Mahayana/Chan in method and the view is more nuanced. Yes, it is superior, as it's Tantra, it's a subtler path.

 

You may not be able to see this, but it always has been a subtler path with more methods and faster enlightenment. That's how Tantra is defined. It doesn't matter what your personal opinion is, as it's not fully educated, not that mine is, but it is more educated.

 

Dzogchen is also the highest form of Vajrayana transcending Tantra with some view similar to Zen, but Zen is not as nuanced and does indeed have different results, though Mahamudra and powa results in the same.

 

I feel that I'm right, so I'll mention it in as many threads as I see fit. Why not? Why are you so effected?.. that's a better question.

 

I've hardly been writing in many threads anymore anyway. I just thought it should be mentioned because goldisheavy is interested in Dzogchen style it seems. Vajrayana method is considered superior, not that individuals in any path are superior, as there are phenomenal practicioners in any lineage that get it in a deeply subtle level who's speech all sounds like Semsde. Which is wonderful! I wasn't downplaying it... just expanding.

 

Dzogchen is my practice and Dzogchen is the most interesting to me. So... of course you'll find me mentioning it as well as Vajrayana. that's the way it is. I don't practice Zen and am not fighting secret attractions to it. Though I find it wonderful as well, just not as attractive for me for reasons of yes... Vajrayana superiority.

Edited August 31, 2009 by Vajrahridaya

[Sunya]

Rime is about all the TB lineages, not about every type of Buddhism. Vajrayana does transcend Zen/Mahayana/Chan in method and the view is more nuanced. Yes, it is superior, as it's Tantra, it's a subtler path.

 

You may not be able to see this, but it always has been a subtler path with more methods and faster enlightenment. That's how Tantra is defined. It doesn't matter what your personal opinion is, as it's not fully educated, not that mine is, but it is more educated.

 

Dzogchen is also the highest form of Vajrayana transcending Tantra with some view similar to Zen, but Zen is not as nuanced and does indeed have different results, though Mahamudra and powa results in the same.

 

I feel that I'm right, so I'll mention it in as many threads as I see fit. Why not? Why are you so effected?.. that's a better question.

 

I don't agree. you're more educated in the elitist view of Tibetan Buddhism, I know that.. but I've studied some Theravada and Chan/Zen and I feel i'm right that all methods of Buddhism all lead to the same goal.

 

Education doesn't always mean wisdom anyway. someone can be really educated but if their source of education is seeped in sectarian propaganda than that's not that wonderful. as great a method as sectarian propoganda is, i don't question, but we live in a global age now. trusting Tibetan source on Chan from the 9th century is kind of strange when you have access to the Chan sources themselves. same with Theravada, so called "Hinayana" by the Mahayanists, but doesn't share any of the criticisms because this isn't 2nd century AD India. Times change.

 

you feel that you're right that's fine. I think that brown rice is really excellent for digestion but i'm not gonna go to a diet forum and mention it on every thread. that's just weird. not every thread has to turn into brown rice is the best dish type deal.. even if it were true.

Edited August 31, 2009 by mikaelz

[Vajrahridaya]

I don't agree. you're more educated in the elitist view of Tibetan Buddhism, I know that.. but I've studied some Theravada and Chan/Zen and I feel i'm right that all methods of Buddhism all lead to the same goal.

 

Education doesn't always mean wisdom anyway. someone can be really educated but if their source of education is seeped in sectarian propaganda than that's not that wonderful. as great a method as sectarian propoganda is, i don't question, but we live in a global age now. trusting Tibetan source on Chan from the 9th century is kind of strange when you have access to the Chan sources themselves. same with Theravada, so called "Hinayana" by the Mahayanists, but doesn't share any of the criticisms because this isn't 2nd century AD India. Times change.

 

you feel that you're right that's fine. I think that brown rice is really excellent but i'm not gonna go to a diet forum and mention it on every thread. that's just weird.

 

You've hardly been around the practices of Vajrayana which incorporate visualisation, vipashyana, physical yogas, specific tantric practices which have specific fruits, medicinal practices, dancing practices... I'm sorry, but there are endless more methods in Vajrayana than any other form of Buddhism, it's just true that as the wheels turn, as Dzogchen is the 4th turning, it's the highest turning. You have very little exposure to it thus far. So you can't really speak much on what it actually teaches, and I hardly can, but only can say what little I know.

 

Agree or not. Even ChNNR agrees that Dzogchen is the highest path in Buddhism. Not that individuals aren't great in any tradition, but Vajrayana is faster and does the Buddha dance more quicker.

 

To me, your view lacks understanding. I'll tell you so. Take it or leave it...

 

not every thread has to turn into brown rice is the best dish type deal.. even if it were true.

 

I speak what I know... I hardly mention Dzogchen in every thread.

[Tao99]

[Sloppy Zhang]

[Vajrahridaya]

Thanks for posting this. Not done reading all the way through, but I encountered this bit and have a question:

So this sort of thing says that there is a difference between getting good karma, and attaining buddhahood. Does that mean one can attain Buddhahood while having bad karma? Does attaining buddhahood clear your karma?

 

Because it seems that while you can recite and donate your way up the ladder, it won't free you, but if you just go right to freeing yourself, then you don't have to bother about all that stuff

 

Your kind of right, though it's much easier to become a Buddha with good karmas, though not too good, otherwise you don't question. Like if your life is filled with pleasure and good circumstances, there is no pressure and you'll just go along life quite innocently and nice, but not really wise and complete in one's view.

 

This is why it's considered very fortunate to have a human rebirth, because it's a kind of mixture between good and bad karmas we have night and day. In hell realms they just have night and in heaven realms they just have day. Though it's possible to have a really hellish human life and on the other hand a really heavenly human rebirth and neither are really good for cultivation. If one has a balance of hard circumstances and good circumstances then one generally has the friction to challenge one's psyche and then the time to cultivate questioning that hard time that just passed. Those with constant hard times are just spending their life in survival mode and those with constant good times are just spending their time innocently burning up their good merits.

 

But really a Buddha can happen anywhere from the hells to the heavens as it's really just about the persons particular ability to cultivate contemplation no matter what. That's why really, the best path is the path that evolves you personally. Though I feel that Dzogchen and Vajrayana are superior in the fact that there is such a wide array of methodology, from sexual tantra to energy cultivation, dancing practices, physical excersizes... etc. etc. Thus it's considered superior because it's not a path of renunciation, it's a path of integration.

 

But, if a person can't see how good of a path it is, it's not really going to benefit them, so they may need that strip down Zen method because that's what suits their particular sensabilities. That is what's going to evolve them and thus, that will be the best path for them, but see, that's subjective.

Edited August 31, 2009 by Vajrahridaya

[Sunya]

You've hardly been around the practices of Vajrayana which incorporate visualisation, vipashyana, physical yogas, specific tantric practices which have specific fruits, medicinal practices, dancing practices... I'm sorry, but there are endless more methods in Vajrayana than any other form of Buddhism, it's just true that as the wheels turn, as Dzogchen is the 4th turning, it's the highest turning. You have very little exposure to it thus far. So you can't really speak much on what it actually teaches, and I hardly can, but only can say what little I know.

 

Agree or not. Even ChNNR agrees that Dzogchen is the highest path in Buddhism. Not that individuals aren't great in any tradition, but Vajrayana is faster and does the Buddha dance more quicker.

 

To me, your view lacks understanding. I'll tell you so. Take it or leave it...

I speak what I know... I hardly mention Dzogchen in every thread.

 

 

I don't think you read my posts. I'm not saying Dzogchen doesn't have more methods. i'm saying it doesn't lead to a "better" or "higher" realization than other Buddhist paths. so saying fuck Chan because it doesn't lead to Ranbow Body is silly. I view Rainbow body as one expression of enlightenment.

 

duh Namkai Norbu Rinpoche says Dzogchen is the highest path. that's his path lol, and Tibetan Buddhism is the only tradition he's been exposed to... actually since he was a kid... well,, before he was born. so you could say he is a little biased I doubt any Rinpoche's have truly given any other Buddhist tradition an objective viewing without being biased by the 3 Yana system.

 

this really is like Catholics arguing against Protestants saying their path gets them in a higher better heaven. it's the same damn religion. chill.

 

Dzogchen is the 4th turning according to Dzogchen btw. i know this sort of sectarian bashing is common in the Tibetan Buddhist forum on E Sangha, but you should go to the Chan/Zen forum and try that and see the kind of response you get.

Edited August 31, 2009 by mikaelz

[Vajrahridaya]

 

duh Namkai Norbu Rinpoche says Dzogchen is the highest path. that's his path lol, and Tibetan Buddhism is the only tradition he's been exposed to... actually since he was a kid... well,, before he was born. so you could say he is a little biased I doubt any Rinpoche's have truly given any other Buddhist tradition an objective viewing without being biased by the 3 Yana system.

 

this really is like Catholics arguing against Protestants saying their path gets them in a higher better heaven. it's the same damn religion. chill.

 

Dzogchen is the 4th turning according to Dzogchen btw.

 

Well I have been exposed to all sorts of paths first hand, including going to zen meditations, reading zen, reading chan, reading all sorts of stuff from around the world.

 

I do feel that there are particulars that Vajrayana teaches that are quite necessary to be able to be a really good bodhisattva and learn what to do even after enlightenment. Like teachings on how to do certain things like be a tulku, project different bodies in different directions and the specifics on how to do that. Though... eh... Mahayana is Mahayana and individuals will receive teachings in higher realms even after having various levels of attainment.

 

Who can say really unless one is an actual Buddha, which I am not. So, I can only know what I know... right? I've spent a lot of time reading and studying all traditions though? Hey... LOL!! Why are we having this argument anyway?

[Sunya]

Hey... LOL!! Why are we having this argument anyway?

 

because we're in Samsara and its losing its appeal.

 

 

that sermon does really have a lot in common from what Rinpoche teaches during his retreats. Bodhidharma seemed to have taught the same view as Dzogchen which is the view of the fruit, or the view that our true nature is already liberated. This is why Chan is called a non-gradual path

 

I remember the story of Bodhidharma traveling to the Emperor of China and the Emperor, who was building a lot of temples and sponsoring monks, asked how much merit has he gained through his actions.. Bodhidharma said no merit. The emperor then asked Who is standing before me? and Bodhidharma replied: I don't know.

 

The emperor was trying to 'gain merit' with a selfish view, not realizing his true nature which is already liberated. this sort of materialistic merit gaining activity was prevalent in China during the time that Bodhidharma came.. and he introduced the Chinese to the real core of Buddhism which is beyond merit gaining and becoming.

 

If you look at the 12 links of Dependent Origination, you can see that it begins with Ignorance. the direct paths like Chan and Dzogchen cut at the root... they cut at ignorance. other paths cut at craving, which is the slow path. this is what vows do. other paths focus on the body. the 'karmic formations' of thoughts. these are very slow paths compared to cutting right at ignorance by seeing your true nature.

 

http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/snapshot05.htm

Edited August 31, 2009 by mikaelz

[Vajrahridaya]

 

Dzogchen is the 4th turning according to Dzogchen btw. i know this sort of sectarian bashing is common in the Tibetan Buddhist forum on E Sangha, but you should go to the Chan/Zen forum and try that and see the kind of response you get.

 

I've gone there. I've asked questions and I don't bash. I just sometimes speak openly about interpretation of various things from a point of view that actually is just all stages of the path. I just speak... if someone thinks it's bashing... that's not me. I think that all paths are valuable. Certain points of view may be categorized certain ways and people say... "oh that's not our sects point of view"... I'm just speaking my own experience. Sometimes I don't even know what sect my point of view is and other people let me know.

[Vajrahridaya]

because we're in Samsara and its losing its appeal.

 

Yes, but Dzogchen is very nuanced and our level of exposure is quite limited at this point. You would see if you would do the levels starting at the Precious Vase.

 

Dzogchen was kind of given only to high stage bodhisattvas because they already were in Nirvana and Dzgochen transcends this Nirvana/Samsara dichotomy, the 2 truths dichotomy.

 

But... Rinpoche is giving Dzogchen to loosers like us, so he has to be gradual about it and incorporate some Tantra.

 

It is nuanced though with the subtler views on what to do once you've really realized the emptiness in every circumstance and when everything is already experienced as blissfully open. Dzogchen takes a high level bodhisattva the extra way in order to learn how to be a Tulku and project Nirmanakayas in many realms, and all sorts of very high up subtle techniques and siddhi's. We have a long way to go to really discover what exactly Dzogchen teaches.

[Vajrahridaya]

 

http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/snapshot05.htm

 

That's a good story! I like it.

 

Your link isn't working though??

[Sunya]

That's a good story! I like it.

 

Your link isn't working though??

 

 

what do u mean? link works for me. its just the cycle of the 12 links of dependent origination.

 

ignorance -> karmic formations -> consciousness -> form -> six senses -> contact -> sensation -> craving -> clinging -> becoming -> rebirth -> death -> back to ignorance

 

 

I was taught about this by a wonderful Tibetan nun named Tenzin Chokyi when I did a retreat at Root Institute in Gaya. She taught about the 12 links and talked about how different paths try to break the links at different points. She is truly an amazng teacher. did 6 years of personal retreat I don't think many others teach the 12 links in this way. The link between Sensaton and Craving is where most paths aim, one way or another. but then how does that lead back to Ignorance? say that craving is gone... does that mean sensation is gone? if sensation is gone... does that mean contact is gone? I don't know.. something to meditate on

 

edit: I think i'm wrong. I think that the link between sensation and craving is aimed at only in the beginning. the link of ignorance is focused on by all paths to gain wisdom. this is done through various methods. I think that maybe Dzogchen and other direct paths are too advanced for most because craving is too strong, hence the preliminaries.

Edited August 31, 2009 by mikaelz

[Vajrahridaya]

what do u mean? link works for me. its just the cycle of the 12 links of dependent origination.

 

Oh... all of a sudden the link works now. My internet is strange...

 

Cool... your blessed to have gone to Bodh gaya! I hope to someday go myself.

 

p.s. LOL! The link really didn't work on my computer, it went to "blank" then broken link... so odd that it happened to be a link to the 12 links description. Wasn't trying to be symbolic by the way.

Edited August 31, 2009 by Vajrahridaya

[Sloppy Zhang]

Your kind of right, though it's much easier to become a Buddha with good karmas, though not too good, otherwise you don't question. Like if your life is filled with pleasure and good circumstances, there is no pressure and you'll just go along life quite innocently and nice, but not really wise and complete in one's view.

 

This is why it's considered very fortunate to have a human rebirth, because it's a kind of mixture between good and bad karmas we have night and day. In hell realms they just have night and in heaven realms they just have day. Though it's possible to have a really hellish human life and on the other hand a really heavenly human rebirth and neither are really good for cultivation. If one has a balance of hard circumstances and good circumstances then one generally has the friction to challenge one's psyche and then the time to cultivate questioning that hard time that just passed. Those with constant hard times are just spending their life in survival mode and those with constant good times are just spending their time innocently burning up their good merits.

 

But really a Buddha can happen anywhere from the hells to the heavens as it's really just about the persons particular ability to cultivate contemplation no matter what. That's why really, the best path is the path that evolves you personally. Though I feel that Dzogchen and Vajrayana are superior in the fact that there is such a wide array of methodology, from sexual tantra to energy cultivation, dancing practices, physical excersizes... etc. etc. Thus it's considered superior because it's not a path of renunciation, it's a path of integration.

 

But, if a person can't see how good of a path it is, it's not really going to benefit them, so they may need that strip down Zen method because that's what suits their particular sensabilities. That is what's going to evolve them and thus, that will be the best path for them, but see, that's subjective.

 

 

Makes sense, thanks

[contrivedname!]