Discarding the Maps

[CarsonZi]

Namaste All....

 

I posted this topic this morning at AYP but thought it would be nice to see if I get some advice from those here at TTB's also......

 

Just wondering what the consensus is around here as to how "bad" an idea it is for someone on a spiritual path to discard all maps and "run blind".....I realize that there are multiple cultural maps of the "upcoming territories" and that although the wording may be different they are all maps of and/or to the same place. I have in the past used many of these "maps" to my advantage, but recently I have had almost an "aversion" to them. I used to read religious doctrines with a ferver...I used to compare my experiences and milestones with the ones talked about in these books, and I used to validate myself based on these things. I used to be very attached to specific "maps" that resonated with me over other "maps" that didn't. But I have recently found that I have no desire to "know where I am", and no desire to read these spiritual maps. It is almost like a loss of bhakti but in other ways is a letting go. I'm not totally sure how I feel about this "aversion" to reading and relating to the spiritual maps. Is it an unwise idea to set aside these maps in order to "forge my own way"? I am in danger of getting really lost if I do this? Thanks for any advice!

 

Love,

Carson

 

P.S. What I mean by "maps" are basically "maps of consciouness", "maps of the path to enlightenment" etc etc.... I used to read anything and everything I could get my hands on.... And some of it I became quite attached to because I felt it validated my own experience. But then I found myself looking for/waiting for the next "experience" that is supposed to happen according to the "map". This has been creating expectations and disappointments in me that I end up having to overcome. I feel it is time to discard those oh so validating "maps", grab my machette and start hacking my way through the bush, trusting Source that I will find my way without putting myself in situations that I can't or don't know how to handle....or without sending me spiraling into situations of "chasing my tail". I think that is what I most fear when thinking about dropping my maps.... that I will end up running in circles for the rest of my life. What do you think?

[thelerner]

For me there is a cycle of read learn apply and forget. I probably need to spend more time on the apply side . I don't think you can skip the read/classes/learn part. There are people who've gone before (sensei's) who've mapped out good paths. We can learn much from them, in modern times there are synthesizers who take the best from many traditions, thats good too, but without discipline we go nowhere. And without some warning we can go over a cliff.

 

Beyond the learning and discipline is the being/forgetting, which has secret ingredient X, I call surrender.

 

 

Michael

[sheng zhen]

I'm not totally sure how I feel about this "aversion" to reading and relating to the spiritual maps. Is it an unwise idea to set aside these maps in order to "forge my own way"? I am in danger of getting really lost if I do this? Thanks for any advice!

This sounds like a real good step! Maps are so often in the way of the real experience. Especially in spiritual development. If you drop the maps and look around where you really are (I mean really, as in "reality"; including inner and outer reality) it will be much easier to progress. And since you have done so much map-reading allready you certainly dont need to worry about getting lost.

 

Go for it!!!

[hyok]

I honestly think it's the only way to know for sure. Otherwise the discerning of mind creations would have to be placed on check.

 

For me, it's been a total "WINGING IT" attitude. I've dabbled with a lot and only when experience revealed itself would I accept it as part of some "system" for me, as well as something similar that others have experienced.

 

Basically i think it comes down to this -- we don't know who we are yet. We don't know what our connections are and what relationships we have within the universe. From what I gather, this is what we're trying to discover, so I would surmise that intuitively we sorta know what's good for us. Some how or another it seaps into our levels of attraction towards those sources.

 

Lastly, I think many things are different now - i.e. the rules of the past still apply, but it seems like things are bending to accomodate time. I dunno.

Edited August 26, 2009 by hyok

[Eric23]

I would hazard a guess that most of us on TTB's have read enough material to keep us occupied for several years if not lifetimes. Time to just do the work.

[joeblast]

Carson, looks like you have a balance approach, even though the pendulum swings in a particular direction at the moment.

 

Your post made me think of myself when I was 11, 12, 13...learned every guitar riff and solo from a few bands and I could play them verbatim....knew such a catalog that...what, you want me to write a riff?? Doldrums.

 

Picking up bass was what cured that. When I was ready for guitar again, I found myself stripped of the influence, but not of technique, my mind liberated from its shackles

[CarsonZi]

Namaste Micheal.....

 

For me there is a cycle of read learn apply and forget.

 

For me it is read, learn, apply, UNlearn.....not forget. I always remember where I've been and what I used to "know" (small "k").

 

I probably need to spend more time on the apply side.

 

Don't we all! Not pointing fingers

 

I don't think you can skip the read/classes/learn part.

 

No, probably not....not unless you did them in a past life

 

There are people who've gone before (sensei's) who've mapped out good paths. We can learn much from them,

 

Yes indeed....but in the end we all have to walk using our own two feet, not a guru's. There are many who can point the way, but when it comes down to it it is all about individual effort/non-effort (however you see it).

 

in modern times there are synthesizers who take the best from many traditions, thats good too, but without discipline we go nowhere.

 

Yes for sure! In fact my own practice set is the AYP system (mostly) which is a prime example of a "synthesized" or "integrated" tradition....but in the famous words of NA (Narcotics Anonymous) "it [only] works if you work it".

 

And without some warning we can go over a cliff.

 

True...but if that DOES happen, it is meant to happen and there is a lesson to be learned...either in this life or the next. Time to have faith in the "inner guru" I think.

 

Beyond the learning and discipline is the being/forgetting, which has secret ingredient X, I call surrender.

 

Absolutely....preaching to the choir.

 

Love,

Carson

 

 

 

Namaste sheng zhen....

 

This sounds like a real good step! Maps are so often in the way of the real experience. Especially in spiritual development. If you drop the maps and look around where you really are (I mean really, as in "reality"; including inner and outer reality) it will be much easier to progress. And since you have done so much map-reading allready you certainly dont need to worry about getting lost.

 

Go for it!!!

 

Thank you for the validation.

 

Now it is time to stop looking for validation that I don't need to have validation (which is what these "maps" are for me...validation that I am going the right direction) and time to just DO it.

 

Time to BE.

 

Thank you.

 

Love,

Carson

Edited August 26, 2009 by CarsonZi

[Marblehead]

Hi Carson,

 

I see nothing wrong with what you are suggesting.

 

I have never used Lao Tzu and Chuang Tzu as maps along my journey. For me they are more like guides. That is, I keep the guide close but I wander off in whatever direction I am called. Sometimes I get lost, pull our my guide, identify where I am and where I should get to then continue my journey.

 

The thing about following maps is that we miss out on a lot that life has to offer that just isn't on the map. But keep the map handy just in case you get lost.

 

Happy Trails!

[CarsonZi]

Namaste hyok...

 

I honestly think it's the only way to know for sure. Otherwise the discerning of mind creations would have to be placed on check.

 

For me, it's been a total "WINGING IT" attitude. I've dabbled with a lot and only when experience revealed itself would I accept it as part of some "system" for me, as well as something similar that others have experienced.

 

So what you are saying is that you would try this, try that, and once you had an experience with a practice you would ask around to see if others could validate this experience and then if they could you would adopt this practice as part of your system? Am I understanding you correctly?

 

Basically i think it comes down to this -- we don't know who we are yet.

 

Well, everyone is different so we should be careful about stating anything as fact....I DO feel that I Know who I am, (and even better who I am not ) but I often find myself needing to know that others feel the same way....if they don't, then I feel I am perhaps confused. It is time for me to stop looking for validation in books, on forums and from others, and time for me to Trust what I Know regardless of validation from outside sources.

 

We don't know what our connections are and what relationships we have within the universe.

 

Very true...time to Surrender to what Is.

 

From what I gather, this is what we're trying to discover,

 

Or perhaps UNdiscover!

 

so I would surmise that intuitively we sorta know what's good for us. Some how or another it seaps into our levels of attraction towards those sources.

 

Totally agree....we always seem to get just what we need....especially in hindsight. Thank you for your insights!

 

Love,

Carson

 

 

 

Namaste joeblast...

 

Carson, looks like you have a balance approach, even though the pendulum swings in a particular direction at the moment.

 

Yes, balance is important to me, and for every up there is a down. I do feel that it is time to walk the Path without the map in hand....time to lift my head and BE where I am instead of LOOKING at where I am on a "map".

 

Your post made me think of myself when I was 11, 12, 13...learned every guitar riff and solo from a few bands and I could play them verbatim....knew such a catalog that...what, you want me to write a riff?? Doldrums.

 

Hahaha.....complete opposite of myself. I was a certified piano teacher by age 15, but I also moved out at the age of 15 so I lost the opportunity to play (they are expensive). So I bought a guitar from a pawn shop and taught myself to play by writing songs. I absolutely REFUSED to learn someone else's song. My how that pendulum swings You couldn't see me over the past few years without some "yoga" "self realization" book in hand...Time to stand on my own two feet once again. Life, and the lessons it brings are such a blessing. We should all be truly thankful for this opportunity at a human life.

 

Picking up bass was what cured that. When I was ready for guitar again, I found myself stripped of the influence, but not of technique, my mind liberated from its shackles

 

Beautiful....Time to strip my mind of the shackles of other peoples experiences and time to be liberated into my own experience. No better teacher then Life itself.

 

Thank you for your advice.

 

Love,

Carson

 

 

 

 

Namaste Marblehead... (hahaha, I love that moniker....I have such a funny mental image of you in my mind's eye)

 

I have never used Lao Tzu and Chuang Tzu as maps along my journey.

 

Neither have I quite honestly .... I resonate deeper with Adyashanti then I do with Lao Tzu.... No offence to anyone who is the opposite, that is just me. But either way, I still need to let go of Adyashanti and his experience in favor of my own.

 

For me they are more like guides. That is, I keep the guide close but I wander off in whatever direction I am called. Sometimes I get lost, pull our my guide, identify where I am and where I should get to then continue my journey.

 

Yes, it is always nice to have guides. But sometimes the hardest (yet the most valuable) lessons in life are learned when you are broken, confused, lost and utterly alone....these lessons have to be learned and by clutching to our guides we continue to step over these lessons missing them entirely. Or at least that is how it seems to me right now.

 

The thing about following maps is that we miss out on a lot that life has to offer that just isn't on the map. But keep the map handy just in case you get lost.

 

Yes, probably good advice. Thank you.

 

Happy Trails!

 

Yeehaw!!!

 

Love,

Carson

Edited August 26, 2009 by CarsonZi

[Mal]

I would hazard a guess that most of us on TTB's have read enough material to keep us occupied for several years if not lifetimes. Time to just do the work.

 

But there is always another new interesting book waiting to take up my practice time

 

Well, everyone is different so we should be careful about stating anything as fact....I DO feel that I Know who I am, (and even better who I am not ) but I often find myself needing to know that others feel the same way....if they don't, then I feel I am perhaps confused. It is time for me to stop looking for validation in books, on forums and from others, and time for me to Trust what I Know regardless of validation from outside sources.

Very true...time to Surrender to what Is.

 

Maps just seem to be the way we generally learn. Some people are gifted and seem to be able to trust themselves enough, or just know, the right way to travel.

 

For me it's like a martial arts. You start off with very definite ways to do something, learning a set of tools to be applied A - B - C But with experience over time these tools become you and you just flow through them spontaneously in harmony with the situation.

 

So depending one where you are in that in that continuum of

beginner - advanced - formless

determines the type of map (instruction) that is relevant to you.

 

Another music one. I was handicapped by learning saxophone via the school band system. I could sight read but not play what was inside me. I just never learnt how to jump into improvisation, although I wrote some songs for our 7 piece jazz band and went on to do some sax stuff at uni. Ended up AMEB grade 4 which is mid level, not real skillful and I could tell I was never going to be world class or even really good But I can improvise on harp as my grandfather taught me to play by listening to him. Jerry Portnoy's lessons took my harp to a new level. He talks about people learning to improvise and the importance of starting off listening too and copying the greats that went before you.

Some people don't like to copy others because they want to have there own style, and they do develop there own style. It's just not something I would ever want to listen too

[rene]

set it down

go chop wood

go carry water

 

see what happens

[Lucky7Strikes]

At times the maps lead me astray as my purpose becomes less clear. I have to ask again why I had picked up the map in the first place. Is it a map within another map? .

 

This is my map for now. But it's not really a map and I don't know where it will take me either.

 

The mind that is ungrasping,

 

A heart that is virtuous,

 

And laughter!

 

.

[Wayfarer64]

For me at this time "maps" are like recipes as well as doctrines... They give you a good idea of where you want to go, but to get to what you are really looking for, the "fine tuning" is totally up to you...

[Old Man Contradiction]

Nisargadatta Maharaj says that you don't need a guru, and also that a book can replace a guru if you do need some guidance.

[innerspace_cadet]

Wow, this thread is really striking a chord with me. I am the veritable Rand McNally of spiritual maps, because I have collected so many of them, but as of yet have been unable to stick with one or two long enough. I have explored Vipassana, Tai Chi, Chi Gung, Silent Illumination, yoga, Shikantaza, Kung Fu, shamanism, Hinduism, etc. etc. etc.

 

There was a wonderful book called "A Path with Heart" where the author recommends "taking the one seat." By this he means finding a spiritual practice that works for you and sticking with it. I think part of the problem is that so many Westerners are so bookish, that they think reading and intellectualizing can carry them to enlightenment. But you have to apply what the books teach; that has been my weak spot all along.

 

I think it is a good idea to have a map that outlines the potential pitfalls of spiritual practice, so you can recognize them when they come up. For example, most spiritual traditions emphasize that psychic powers are signs of spiritual progress, but they are not to be sought in themselves, because you can end up feeding the ego. There is no reason to reinvent the wheel. Maps are a guide, not the territory.

[Old Man Contradiction]

[joeblast]

 

Namaste joeblast...

 

Yes, balance is important to me, and for every up there is a down. I do feel that it is time to walk the Path without the map in hand....time to lift my head and BE where I am instead of LOOKING at where I am on a "map".

Hahaha.....complete opposite of myself. I was a certified piano teacher by age 15, but I also moved out at the age of 15 so I lost the opportunity to play (they are expensive). So I bought a guitar from a pawn shop and taught myself to play by writing songs. I absolutely REFUSED to learn someone else's song. My how that pendulum swings You couldn't see me over the past few years without some "yoga" "self realization" book in hand...Time to stand on my own two feet once again. Life, and the lessons it brings are such a blessing. We should all be truly thankful for this opportunity at a human life.

Beautiful....Time to strip my mind of the shackles of other peoples experiences and time to be liberated into my own experience. No better teacher then Life itself.

 

Thank you for your advice.

 

Love,

Carson

Swing away with the breeze, brother! Many correlations between the music in your ears and the music of the spheres. Namaste!

[Marblehead]

 

And laughter!

 

.

 

Yeah. We need to remember to laugh. I think this is important.

 

Editing to add one more thing: If your map is not leading you to beautiful, peaceful places you need to throw your map away and either get a different map or just flow with whatever breeze pushes you along.

 

Happy Trails!

Edited August 27, 2009 by Marblehead

[Albert]

This thread has been a fantastic read for me...so many valuable lessons are discussed here

[CarsonZi]

Namaste All and thank you for the wonderful contributions to this thread.....many great posts in here.

 

@innerspace_cadet......

Wow, this thread is really striking a chord with me. I am the veritable Rand McNally of spiritual maps, because I have collected so many of them, but as of yet have been unable to stick with one or two long enough. I have explored Vipassana, Tai Chi, Chi Gung, Silent Illumination, yoga, Shikantaza, Kung Fu, shamanism, Hinduism, etc. etc. etc.

 

Glad you have resonated with this thread.... I personally don't have a problem with bouncing from map to map (tradition to tradition)....my childhood was spent searching as a Christian, my adolescence and early adulthood spent searching via the path of entheogens, and the past few years via "yoga" (mostly AYP, which has been my stand alone practice set for about a year and a half now)....but my main issue is that I use these "spiritual maps" as validation for my personal experiences. In the past if I can't validate my experiences with someone else's experience I begin a process of second-guessing myself and "spinning my wheels" often resulting in a time of going in circles. Time to drop the need for "experience validation" and time to just Be here Now.

 

There was a wonderful book called "A Path with Heart" where the author recommends "taking the one seat." By this he means finding a spiritual practice that works for you and sticking with it.

 

Wise advice for sure. I definitely have a practices set that works for me....it has manifested many "miracles" in my life, some of which are physically impossible....there is no issue there, for me. I can let go of searching for more and better practices.

 

I think part of the problem is that so many Westerners are so bookish, that they think reading and intellectualizing can carry them to enlightenment. But you have to apply what the books teach; that has been my weak spot all along.

 

Yes, this is exactly my issue. I do do my practices, but I end up living my daily life trying to relate every experience to someone else's experience and in the end, end up missing out on my own life. Not very intelligent.

 

I think it is a good idea to have a map that outlines the potential pitfalls of spiritual practice, so you can recognize them when they come up. For example, most spiritual traditions emphasize that psychic powers are signs of spiritual progress, but they are not to be sought in themselves, because you can end up feeding the ego.

 

Yeah I have read all about the pitfalls...and pretty much every other aspect of the "spiritual journey", but I am learning that avoiding pitfalls like the plague ends up taking a lot more time then just walking straight into them, refusing to deny they exist, and dealing with them right then and there. Once you have made a mistake and learned from it, it is easy to see it coming up the next time and avoid it. No need for a map. Sometimes we need to just make our own mistakes just so that we can truly learn from them....learning from other's mistakes can help sometimes, but in the end we all have to get our hands dirty at least every so often.

 

Thanks for the input everyone!

 

Love,

Carson