RE: The Buddha Bums

[wudangspirit]

en garde

 

Point taken and i'll make my point more clearly next time. I will however start posting most Taoist topics when I get a chance. However, I think in my starting this thread I already proved on of the Taoist concepts...

 

One becomes two...two becomes ....three and three becomes 10,000...... hahahahahahahah!!!! Put out a discussion and get 10,000 directions and more concepts.....

 

Gotta love it

 

Tao Bless all of us!

 

 

 

OK, granted you werent whining per se.

 

But the fact you are stating is a commentary on too much buddhism, not enough Taoism.

 

My reply was, bring on the Tao yourself rather than talk about the oppressive presence of Buddhism.

 

Personally it's all conversation to be joined or ignored.

 

My joining here was probably less constructive and more noise about the too much Buddhism.

 

ha ha - thrust - parry - riposte

 

Daffy

 

PS - why are people coming to you in PM's or whatever. they too should post some good Taoishness.

PPS- I have nothing to say about the Tao now.

[nac]

I do like his 'collective subsconscious' theory though.

I disagree with him there.

[Marblehead]

I disagree with him there.

 

 

Oh, darn. And we were doing so well at agreeing with each other. Hehehe.

 

Happy Trails!

[TheSongsofDistantEarth]

[Reviving this thread now because it seems TOPICAL to me]

 

It seems that we are getting a big good dose of Buddhist line of thought, which in itself isn't a bad thing, but t seems to come from one source, mostly. And that source has been turning me off to Buddhism, because it comes across as proselytizing... but, more importantly, it represents mostly one person's strong views, philosophy and opinions served up as Superior Truth. (This Buddhist doesn't even call them beliefs, but his "comprehensions of the truth"...honest to God, that's what he said).

 

So, I went to my bookshelf, and the library, and got some books on Buddhism, and man, it's pretty cool, but it sounds not much at all like what has been discussed here in thread after thread...those pages and pages and pages, of 'esoterica philosophica' on reifying emptiness dependent origination blah blah blah and I am remembering/rediscovering that there's a whole lot more to Buddhism than this person 's narrow and opinionated semi-narcissistic views. Like, engaged Buddhism, social engaged Buddhism, lovingkindness, practical Buddhist conscious living, and more. Not so much the emphasis on the highest form of realization.

 

I would like to hear more about Buddhism, without others getting drowned out by one individual who seems to have to answer every question, and tout the superiority of his brand of Buddhism and is dismissive of all other paths.

 

Those pages and pages and pages of discussions present a certain fascination, because they are oppositional, but eventually everyone gets kind of irate at the everpresent-ness of this chap, but dammit, all those pages and pages are all drearily alike, and somehow draw off the energy off others for spirited discussion in other realms, so the topic always goes back to that brand of that person's Buddhism and his views, and there is very little liveliness happening elsewhere in the forum. And that person has monopolized the discussion, and gets to turn it, again and again, to his...well, agenda. He certainly is sincere, but yeah, this place seems like it has become the BuddhaBums. In a way, it's kind of troll-like behavior, isn't it?

 

So, I would like to suggest that we not feed the troll, and not endlessly engage in what has turned out to be, at this point, pointless discussion. We seem to be going around in circles, and the discussion always ends up with the omnipresence of this enthusiastic practitioner sort-of getting the upper hand and getting to discuss his stuff on and on, ad nauseam.

 

I for one, would like to have balanced discussion, and if Buddhism is discussed, would like to hear other voices. Perhaps if we engaged this person less by not actually engaging in this endless verbal wordplay, we might get some real energy back into this forum. As it is, lately, it seems rather flat, aside from the Buddhist/Taoist drams.

 

Please note, this is not a personal attack, but it seems like we're at an impasse here.

Edited October 7, 2009 by TheSongsofDistantEarth

[Sunya]

Songs, don't you have any other masks other than Taoist Crusader ?

 

damn you took out your Lebowski quote. I had a good one too.

 

I think Vajra presents Buddhism very accurately, as does Xabir and several others here. you just find his attitude threatening.

 

"engaged Buddhism" is interesting and worthwhile but really the core of Buddhism is mystical; experiential insight, not trying to put lipstick on samsara. All Buddhists are trained that real change happens within first, so change yourself then change the world.

 

If you want to learn about Buddhism go on E-Sangha, but then again you were the one to say how its so terrible over there and elitist, and you got banned, so really the issue is with you and serious Buddhism, not the kind of fluff you'll read in books. Most books won't tell you flat out the things that Vajra is saying, you've gotta figure that out for yourself. maybe thats the problem Hari, you're giving too much away. we need more fluff here.

Edited October 6, 2009 by mikaelz

[TheSongsofDistantEarth]

Songs, don't you have any other masks other than Taoist Crusader ?

 

 

Thanks for the helpful reply.

 

Why are you so threatened? I am not even a member over at e-sangha. The person I referred to in my post is, shall we say, rather ubiquitous here, and has been able to offend quite a few. I'm just tired of the same old V-centered discussions...a couple hundred of pages, endlessly where he never concedes a point. Its very unbalanced. I'm not against Buddhism, just the fact that this forum has been taken over recently by this endless discussion, and there is a lot more to Buddhism than Dzogchen, presented as Gospel from the mouth of Buddha.

Edited October 6, 2009 by TheSongsofDistantEarth

[booktreasure]

[Reviving this thread now because it seems TOPICAL to me]

 

It seems that we are getting a big good dose of Buddhist line of thought, which in itself isn't a bad thing, but t seems to come from one source, mostly. And that source has been turning me off to Buddhism, because it comes across as proselytizing... but, more importantly, it represents mostly one person's strong views, philosophy and opinions served up as Superior Truth. (This Buddhist doesn't even call them beliefs, but his "comprehensions of the truth"...honest to God, that's what he said).

 

 

I have been silently following this thread for quite a bit and know some of you from E-sangha. This is the reason great Buddhist masters have discouraged teaching or preaching when a skillful approach is lacking. And the result would be exactly like this one; rather than feeling attracted to dharma, a feeling of repulsion sweeps over. Frankly, such exposition of Buddhism is very very E-sangha and one should not confuse it to be reflective of any or many aspects of true Dharma and when I say that, I don't mean just hard facts or suttas but also the attitude and the approach.

 

On the lighter side, why are you 'Taoists' encouraging the hyper fellow here when you know what he gets into? Silence is golden especially in this case. Allow him to preach whatever he wants and correct whoever he wants. You won't have a problem if you don't want to. Vajra drastically reduced his postings on Sangha and eventually will do the same here, if you stop feeding the troll. When his arguments were going no where on E-sangha, he had to bounce back some place else and I won't get into stories here. But a big fish in a smaller well

 

Michael was and is enchanted with Vajra and he is responsible for bringing him here. He will defend Vajra and dismiss all those who oppose him as closet cases or drama. That is because he traces everything Vajra does to that initial cause for which he is responsible - invitation to the troll to come here and argue, pretty simple to figure that out right? So he has to defend Vajra for everything he does whether he really likes it or not, his ego leaves him no other choice. Once you recognize this, you will see the futility of arguing with some like Michael.

[Sunya]

Michael was and is enchanted with Vajra and he is responsible for bringing him here. He will defend Vajra and dismiss all those who oppose him as closet cases or drama. That is because he traces his act to the root of everything Vajra does, pretty simple to figure that out right? Once you recognize this, you will see the futility of arguing with some like Michael.

 

 

lol furthest from the truth. I oppose any drama as its ridiculous.

 

examine your reason for posting here, examine your intent. what's the point of it? what's the purpose? what are you trying to gain? it's all selfish nonsense. argumentative dramatic bullshit. I feel good about bringing Vajra here as I feel many have gained from the exchange, but the few drama queens who can't let go of their emotions I feel pretty bad about. they just cocoon'd up even more.

[TheSongsofDistantEarth]

I have been silently following this thread for quite a bit and know some of you from E-sangha. This is the reason great Buddhist masters have discouraged teaching or preaching when a skillful approach is lacking. And the result would be exactly like this one; rather than feeling attracted to dharma, a feeling of repulsion sweeps over. Frankly, such exposition of Buddhism is very very E-sangha and one should not confuse it to be reflective of any or many aspects of true Dharma and when I say that, I don't mean just hard facts or suttas but also the attitude and the approach.

 

On the lighter side, why are you 'Taoists' encouraging the hyper fellow here when you know what he gets into? Silence is golden especially in this case. Allow him to preach whatever he wants and correct whoever he wants. You won't have a problem if you don't want to. Vajra drastically reduced his postings on Sangha and eventually will do the same here, if you stop feeding the troll. When his arguments were going no where on E-sangha, he had to bounce back some place else and I won't get into stories here. But a big fish in a smaller well

 

Michael was and is enchanted with Vajra and he is responsible for bringing him here. He will defend Vajra and dismiss all those who oppose him as closet cases or drama. That is because he traces everything Vajra does ot that initial cause for which he is responsible - invitation to the troll to come here and argue, pretty simple to figure that out right? So he has to defend Vajra for everything he does whether he really likes it or not, his ego leaves him no other choice. Once you recognize this, you will see the futility of arguing with some like Michael.

 

Thanks. That fills in some gaps for me. I guess the answer is to not engage, and the energy will drain from the drama and hopefully pop up more productively elsewhere. If you read back through the various threads, he has been 'fighting' with a lot of people who don't seem to have problems with anyone else. I was trying to raise the topic in a calm way, and by troll, I mean someone who has 'taken over a forum to suit his purposes, which as I see it, is to spread the greatness and superiority of his brand of Buddhism, at the same time belittling every other path as lesser. We spend a lot of time here on that, and I'd like some of the members to free up energy for more enlightening discussion.

Edited October 7, 2009 by TheSongsofDistantEarth

[Sunya]

Vajra drastically reduced his postings on Sangha and eventually will do the same here, if you stop feeding the troll. When his arguments were going no where on E-sangha, he had to bounce back some place else and I won't get into stories here. But a big fish in a smaller well

 

Vajra is a busy guy. we rarely speak now actually. both quite busy but him especially. he's far from a troll, and he started a pretty interesting thead recently on E-Sangha actually and there was really no arguments... everything he says is basically established Buddhism. http://www.lioncity.net/buddhism/index.php...=93578&st=0

 

but anyway, I don't know who you are, and it seems like you're just trying to get involved in the mud slinging. so I can just show you the door and assure you that it's better for you to walk back out but you won't take my advice;you already have pre-conceived notions, so enjoy your time in the fray I guess. keep circling that karma around.

[Mal]

I would like to hear more about Buddhism, without others getting drowned out by one individual who seems to have to answer every question, and tout the superiority of his brand of Buddhism and is dismissive of all other paths.

 

Fanatics always seem like that but I like that Vaj is secure in his belief system. He does not seem to flood that much anymore although I stay out of the endless debate threads so YMMV

 

Lin and Mat Black certainly inspire me when it comes to Buddhist thought here on TTB

[Tao99]

keep circling that karma around.

 

I'm so sick of these underhanded Buddhist Threats to people's future, and all based on nothing, trivial disagreements, misinformation, incomplete information and/or DO DO voodoo doodoo. Would the Buddha consider that skillful? If so I'll gladly quit zen. But I think not.

Edited October 7, 2009 by Tao99

[nac]

I'm so sick of these underhanded Buddhist Threats to people's future, and all based on nothing, trivial disagreements, misinformation, incomplete information and/or DO DO voodoo doodoo. Would the Buddha consider that skillful? If so I'll gladly quit zen. But I think not.

That doesn't look like a threat to me, more like a rather rude, flippant remark.

[Seth Ananda]

The more Buddhist material I read and listen too the more I find great teachers saying things like Sogyal Rinpoche says when he includes all the saints and masters of all traditions as embodiments of Enlightened mind...

 

I have backed away from Buddhism again as It just cant answer certain questions for me with any depth, such as Why? Why for existence? And beginingless endless dependent origination is a real shabby answer. How is such an amazing universe made? How does Unintelligent E&DO in its infinite blind cycle make such and awesome display? Impossible. There are deeper answers outside Buddhism!

 

Also the After death teachings in Buddhism (to me) seem to lack much connection to reality. Near death experiences all over the world have a fairly universal element within them (as long as they went into the light) and that is the experience of the life review. It offen differs a bit in its external form but its essence is that the person having it gets to see/review their whole life in the light of how well they did in achieving what they came here to do. This smacks of conscious volition in incarnating and is very unbuddhist as a result. No reincarnating as an animal or hungry ghost. Often the person is given a new task or mission in the experience, and usally comes back deeply transformed. You cant write this off as new age waffel as it happens to people all over the world from different religions and perspectives, including Buddhists.

 

Key features that stand out about this experience to me are:

1. We have a spirit.

2. Our spirit chooses to come here with a purpose in mind

3. The universe is an Intelligent and Loving consciousness that is actually helping unfold the needed events for us in our lives. So its not all E&D.O. There is purpose.

 

The divine Has many aspects and I feel that Buddhism and some other traditions are very 'one sidedly focused' on the Being aspect, and their adherants only ever experience the 'Being' and 'wide open' face of divinity. What about Divinitys Intelligence and Will, it's Creativity and Energy?

[Lucky7Strikes]

1. We have a spirit.

2. Our spirit chooses to come here with a purpose in mind

3. The universe is an Intelligent and Loving consciousness that is actually helping unfold the needed events for us in our lives. So its not all E&D.O. There is purpose.

 

1. We have a spirit, but it exists through our intent/creative consciousness dependently rising from other intent/creative consciousnesses. The world is co-created and even that co-creation creates you.

 

2. Our spirit chooses, but, as in it tries its best to manifest the best way it knows how to. Like trying to make the best painting you know from the skills you have.

 

3. The universe is intelligent and has a consciousness of its own, just as mother earth does.

 

There is purpose in realizing our potential as an infinitely loving being! .

Edited October 7, 2009 by Lucky7Strikes

[Sunya]

I have backed away from Buddhism again as It just cant answer certain questions for me with any depth, such as Why? Why for existence? And beginingless endless dependent origination is a real shabby answer. How is such an amazing universe made? How does Unintelligent E&DO in its infinite blind cycle make such and awesome display? Impossible. There are deeper answers outside Buddhism!

 

All of Buddhism is a means, a path, to realizing these questions, or rather the futility of these questions.. so I would kindly suggest that instead of continuing these questions, rather question who is questioning?

 

Since we are all of the same condition, and that condition has the aspect of pure knowing, or wisdom, then to know the method is to simply relax and get in touch with your true nature. you are the truth that you seek.

[DalTheJigsaw123]

No need to rename the forum. Just post more Tao topics. I have been trying to do just that. Maybe get another category where we can put Buddhism? Instead of combining all the topics together?

[Vajrahridaya]

 

 

I have backed away from Buddhism again as It just cant answer certain questions for me with any depth, such as Why? Why for existence? And beginingless endless dependent origination is a real shabby answer. How is such an amazing universe made? How does Unintelligent E&DO in its infinite blind cycle make such and awesome display? Impossible. There are deeper answers outside Buddhism!

 

If you still want to cling to a mysterious self of all.. go ahead... no ones stopping you... the end game will originate dependent upon your view and realization.

What about Divinitys Intelligence and Will, it's Creativity and Energy?

 

That's dependent origination. You have to get it intuitively. Get some good transmission.

 

It can only make sense through direct experience transcending a self of any kind. It will be a quantum leap.

 

Take care.

[xabir2005]

I have backed away from Buddhism again as It just cant answer certain questions for me with any depth, such as Why? Why for existence? And beginingless endless dependent origination is a real shabby answer. How is such an amazing universe made? How does Unintelligent E&DO in its infinite blind cycle make such and awesome display? Impossible. There are deeper answers outside Buddhism!

 

Buddhism does not deny intelligence. So E&DO is not unintelligent. But even intelligence and consciousness dependently originates. In Buddhism the universe does not have a strictly material cause but interdependently originates with consciousness and karma.

 

As Namdrol says: ...there are no merely five principles that govern empirical reality in Buddhist theory, but rather six: solids, liquids, gases, heat, dimensionality, and consciousness. Even if matter composed of the first five are disturbed, the presence of consciousness (es) will always ensure the flow of time. Why? because mind is, in Buddhist theory, a species of dravya, substance. It is a phenomena, and hence time will be dependent on it for as there are consciousnesses....

 

In Buddhism, there is no monotheistic/judaistic intelligent sole creator God sitting up in heaven designing things below, but rather, consciousness and intelligent beings is always making conditions and karma which affects what we call the universe. However consciousness/intelligence is not reified as an all powerful controlling entity.

 

There is no first cause in Buddhism, just endless flow of dependent origination.

 

Consciousness does not 'create' the universe, but the universe is interdependent with consciousness-es. (Not one supreme intelligence/consciousness or God, but endless mindstreams of consciousness and intelligence) Consciousness is not an all powerful creator because consciousness also dependently originates, as Dalai Lama says:

 

Mind came into existence because of its own cause. To deny that the origination of mind is dependent on a cause, or to say that it is a designation given as a means of recognizing the nature of mind aggregates, is not correct. With our superficial observance, mind, which has concrete experience and clear cognizance as its nature, appears to be a powerful, independent, subjective, completely ruling entity. However, deeper analysis will reveal that this mind, possessing as it does the function of experience and cognizance, is not a self-created entity but Is dependent on other factors for its existence. Hence it depends on something other than itself. This non-independent quality of the mind substance is its true nature which in turn is the ultimate reality of the self.

 

 

So in Buddhism our nature as luminous clarity, vitality, intelligence aspect is not denied and is experienced in full, but its empty (dependent origination) essence is also understood. In Dzogchen it's explained as the three aspects of Essence (emptiness), Nature (luminosity), Energy (manifestation) -- these three are not separate but are inseparable and are corresponded with the three bodies of Buddha: Dharmakaya, Sambhogakaya, Nirmanakaya. These three bodies are not (from the Dzogchen way) to be achieved by efforting but is something that is already spontaneously perfected as our very nature/the nature of universe/the nature of all experiences.

 

The luminosity is not other than the very magical display (manifestation, energy) itself, empty, illusion-like but not an illusion, dependently originated, yet vivid and clear and aware.

 

So does our will and ability to make our lives and others' lives better and so on -- they too are not denied but their aware-empty nature, dependently originated nature, is understood.

Edited October 7, 2009 by xabir2005

[Vajrahridaya]

 

So does our will and ability to make our lives and others' lives better and so on -- they too are not denied but their aware-empty nature, dependently originated nature, is understood.

 

Which removes clinging and assumptions, thus granting more objective responses to circumstances.

Edited October 7, 2009 by Vajrahridaya

[Marblehead]

... thus granting more objective responses to circumstances.

 

I find that ability in open-mindedness, strength and flexibility. (Yes, I really am very open-minded regarding nearly all aspects of my life. Yeah. Yeah. I know if you selectively read some of my posts it would be hard to believe.)

 

Peace & Love!

[nac]

Why? Why for existence?

Dependent Origination.

 

 

And beginingless endless dependent origination is a real shabby answer.

It's not IMO. DO is thus far the only answer I've discovered in spirituality that avoids sloppy thinking (not to mention wishful thinking) and is 100% consistent with modern science, especially certain findings of quantum physics. The first thing that comes to mind: the Big Bang wasn't a "causeless cause" as previously supposed and it didn't start out as an ideal singularity either. According to DO, a single cause cannot produce manifold consequences when the rest of the universe is devoid of phenomena. Hence, an interdependent web of manifold phenomena must have always existed, and will always exist in some form or other. Best of all, it doesn't even imply that this physical universe will last forever or be continually reborn like a pendulum, because it won't. After the heat death, a handful of minuscule particles will be left as residue within this spacetime continuum. (not even going into multiverse-related theories...)

Edited October 7, 2009 by nac

[nac]

Impossible.

Not just possible, 99.99999% probable.

 

There are deeper answers outside Buddhism!

I haven't seen them yet.

 

Also the After death teachings in Buddhism (to me) seem to lack much connection to reality.

IMO that depends on several factors including your Abhidharmic model and interpretation.

 

This smacks of conscious volition in incarnating and is very unbuddhist as a result. No reincarnating as an animal or hungry ghost. Often the person is given a new task or mission in the experience, and usally comes back deeply transformed. You cant write this off as new age waffel as it happens to people all over the world from different religions and perspectives, including Buddhists.

Woah, you have no idea!

 

Key features that stand out about this experience to me are:

1. We have a spirit.

2. Our spirit chooses to come here with a purpose in mind

3. The universe is an Intelligent and Loving consciousness that is actually helping unfold the needed events for us in our lives. So its not all E&D.O. There is purpose.

All of these can fit Buddhism, but I personally disagree with them all.

 

The divine Has many aspects and I feel that Buddhism and some other traditions are very 'one sidedly focused' on the Being aspect, and their adherants only ever experience the 'Being' and 'wide open' face of divinity. What about Divinitys Intelligence and Will, it's Creativity and Energy?

True, we're one-sidedly focused on overcoming such delusions that infest the mind like poison due to it's nature.

[Trunk]

I haven't been following this thread; probably this has already been said.

It's (obviously) really valuable to learn from traditions X,Y,Z, but

Bottom line is experiential and, once meditation sets in, labels are the first to go.

[Tao99]

Edited October 7, 2009 by Tao99