Inner Ecstasy

[Yoda]

AYP calls it 'inner sensuality' and Winn calls it 'self intercourse.'

 

Per Cam, Yudelove says that inner smile practice is key to sexual practices and I like to think that Inner Sensuality/Self Intercourse is an expression of a very flourishing, 'passionate' inner smile practice.

 

Here's a cool quote from Craig:

 

And as has been discussed, though long ago, on the HT board the more complete solution is to begin and continue with the KanLi sexual self intercourse method. If you really begin to get this going on, things can really shift in the retention process through the resolution of this extra energy within this Kan and Li process. Some students have even reported they feel a diminishment of desire as a result of this.

To paraphrase M.Winn "of course if you are having self intercourse all the time you naturally will have less desire"

 

My interpretation of AYP says that the secret of celibacy or tantric sex rests upon igniting inner sensuality. Inner ecstacy seems to be developed by a great many general practices: affirmations, meditation, energy cultivation to specific yogas like kechari and siddhasana (sitting on your heel) anal breathing, sacrum breathing, etc.

 

It's quite likely that it all boils down to just feeling good inside. As Trungpa Rinpoche says you just hang out with yourself long enough to see that you are good. Once this basic goodness/bodhicitta is discovered then all the little yoga tricks become quite powerful.

 

-Yoda

[sean]

I just started in on the AYP Tantra lessons last night Yoda man. It's funny how sensitive I am to the way things are worded and author's tone of voice. The Chinese alchemical emphasis on the LTT seems to promote a tendency to interpret semen retention in terms of power, ie: energy loss vs. storage. Yogani's spin is more heart-centered IMO. Retention is in an organic relationship with increasing spiritual Bliss moving toward the internal orgasm of spiritual awakening. Probably a subtle distinction for some, but a much more appealing metaphor for me. I also like how he discusses the woman's need to eventually hold back orgasm as well, since as lovemaking becomes very prolonged many many orgasms are likely to occur in the woman which could add up to the pranic loss of the single male ejaculation. Really engages the woman into the same process of turning the orgasmic power inward and upward.

 

Sean

[Yoda]

It's always nice to get another perspective on it.

 

It is more low key. Aside from moderate retention for men, tantric sexuality isn't something that even needs to be practiced.

 

As my goal is bliss rather than enlightenment the problem with tantric sexuality is that it can't be done 24 hours a day. So how do I get my bliss for the rest of the day?

 

That's where inner sensuality kicks in.

 

I'd like to suffer workgasms and lifegasms and all that.

[thelerner]

Amongst my various breathing CD's there is one particularly interesting but dangerous one. Called The Healing Art of Conscious Breathing by Sadhana Concepts. Its a tape on rebirthing.

 

Specifically its has you follow its very rapid, near hyperventillating breath pattern for an hour. I've heard it can bring on near LSD type emotional situations. I bought it a while back, but found it very hard to sustain so I forgot abou it. I just loaded it onto my Ipod, one of these days I'll have to get back into it.

 

Michael

[thelerner]

Sean / Yoda is Yogani's work more aimed at non sexual retention. Trying to lessen sexual desire? I've always thought that a less energetic and more 'enlightened?' aim.

 

Michael

[Yoda]

It's my understanding of AYP that being sexually active is optional, modest male retention (1xweek max spooging) is important, but sexual activity can be a real boost to one's energy practice, but no substitute for meditation. And, of course, it is fun. Even in the fun dept, it isn't as fun as what's acheivable in meditation. I think that's the basics.

[VCraigP]

I just started in on the AYP Tantra lessons last night Yoda man. It's funny how sensitive I am to the way things are worded and author's tone of voice. The Chinese alchemical emphasis on the LTT seems to promote a tendency to interpret semen retention in terms of power, ie: energy loss vs. storage. Yogani's spin is more heart-centered IMO. Retention is in an organic relationship with increasing spiritual Bliss moving toward the internal orgasm of spiritual awakening. Probably a subtle distinction for some, but a much more appealing metaphor for me. I also like how he discusses the woman's need to eventually hold back orgasm as well, since as lovemaking becomes very prolonged many many orgasms are likely to occur in the woman which could add up to the pranic loss of the single male ejaculation. Really engages the woman into the same process of turning the orgasmic power inward and upward.

 

Sean

9102[/snapback]

 

I would like to point out another fine distinction which you may want to consider.

M.Winn emphasizes a Big difference between martial Chi Taoist practitioners and Alchemical practice. The concept that it is necessary to engage in the dynamic of always seeking to grasp/gather/hold on to energy is a concept of Limitations.

In the beginning stages of cultivation it is necessary to gather Enough energy to open up the energy gates of the body. Once the neceesary openings occur, according to Michael's theory, it is possible to tap into the infinite source of PreHeavenly Chi, physically located as the Ming Men (gate of life and death).

 

This is a major distinction. I am not even sure if this is a distinction Chia makes, but M.Winn is very clear on it.

Martial artists often come from the perspective of seeking more and more Power and continue to load up/retain/grasp as much as they can.

From what I can see this idea of using retention and other energy saving practices to build up enough energy to make this breakthrough is somewhat rare, though probably not unique to M.Winn's teachings.

It resonates with me.

At the risk of using metaphors similiar to M.Chia I would say that it is like a rocket to the moon, you have to have enough energy to break free of earth's gravity in order to move in the near frictionless environment outside earth's gravity well.

You need to have enough energy to open up the space leading out of later heaven and towards early heaven.

 

I also agree about the Woman's orgasm and retention. Women's sexuality is not really explored very fully in either M.Chia's or M.Winns works so far IMO.

My experience of prolonged lovemaking leads me to agree with the idea that energy circulation and recycling during the act is very important for both partners equally.

 

I subscribe to the theory (backed up with experience) that once a certain degree of recycling and co circulation has happened that the net Jing loss from ejaculation is much less. I am sure this is controversial in some circles, but it's where I am.

 

Craig

[spyrelx]

I would like to point out another fine distinction which you may want to consider.

M.Winn emphasizes a Big difference between martial Chi Taoist practitioners and Alchemical practice.  The concept that it is necessary to engage in the dynamic of always seeking to grasp/gather/hold on to energy is a concept of Limitations.

In the beginning stages of cultivation it is necessary to gather Enough energy to open up the energy gates of the body.  Once the neceesary openings occur, according to Michael's theory, it is possible to tap into the infinite source of PreHeavenly Chi, physically located as the Ming Men (gate of life and death).

 

This is a major distinction.  I am not even sure if this is a distinction Chia makes, but M.Winn is very clear on it.

 

I subscribe to the theory (backed up with experience) that once a certain degree of recycling and co circulation has happened that the net Jing loss from ejaculation is much less.  I am sure this is controversial in some circles, but it's where I am. 

Craig

9179[/snapback]

 

Thats probably the most articulate representation of Winn's position I've heard. But I have to say I really struggle with it.

 

It somehow always strikes me as more wishfull thinking than actual fact. I'm also troubled that there is PRECIOUS LITTLE in any of the daoist literature I've read that supports it. Finally -- perhaps because of where I am in my practice (i.e., haven't opened the channels sufficiently or whatever) -- I don't really have any personal experience that supports it.

 

Indeed, MY personal experience is that energy ebbs and flows and that these practices can increase energy till you do something (exercise, ejaculation, sickenss, etc.) that drains that accumulated energy. Winn's concept of someone opening channels, connecting with the source and having unlimited energy at your call . . . . well, I've just never experienced it.

 

I mean, can Winn run a marathon? When he gets exhausted in the tenth mile does he just check in with his dan tien and refuel fro the next 16? Somehow I doubt it.

 

It may be that you need a certain buildup of energy to open channels (the "100 days" comes to mind) and that, once opened, a single-minded hoarding of energy is less required. But to me so much of the daoist literature is geared to building and conserving energy for alchemical purposes that it's incongruous to me to say that you get to a stage (in this life, as a practitioner) where you don't have to do it.

 

I mean even breatharians seem to have VERY DELICATE SYSTEMS. I.e., they figured out a way to live off air (primordial chi) but only with a VERY RESTRICTED lifestyle (lots of cave meditation, very little marathon running, etc.)

 

I wonder if you could expand a bit on your experience with this, whether with respect to sex or not. I'd be interested in hearing more about how you see it.

[Cameron]

Interesting stuff Craig and Michael. I read Winn's approach and heard it from him live and can easily make the distinction of what you are saying to two teachers..Winn and Ken Cohen.

 

Cohen clearly is from the "you need to gather qi and store it" philosophy. At one point yesterday he said this very animately. He got pretty excited and goes "everyone just wants to go, go, go and not store energy. You need to gather and store your energy(while saying this he made motions of drawing qi to youself).

 

Then he did something which really made an impression for me. He said doing qigong and living your life are just like a baseball player swinging the bat. When the ball player swings the bat backwards to gain momentum and power that is like qigong practice and when he releases and finally swings that is your life(activity). most people are always in a "bunt" position and just going forward all the time instead of turning back to gain energy.

 

His perspective is qigong is basically an advanced form of excercise and some degree of sexual retention is necissary for optimul qi development.

 

I wrote about the difference between Winn and Cohen's view in my journal a few months ago. Like I said, Winn's view is appealing to any Taoist guy but I have gotten much better results from Cohen.

 

But maybe Winn is just really advanced stuff I am just not ready for yet. Obviously if you can really merge your qi with the sun and moon and open this door to pre heaven that atleast theory sounds like it would make semen retention reduntant.

 

But I remain in the gather qi and watch the jing camp at the moment.

[Yoda]

Maybe chi is like money... the more you can accumulate the more you can spend, but everyone--even Bill Gates--needs to stay in balance.

 

Rock stars might be the sperm analogy--they pull in a tremendous amount of energy and they spend a lot too. If they stay in balance they stick around longer.

[sean]

Specifically its has you follow its very rapid, near hyperventillating breath pattern for an hour. I've heard it can bring on near LSD type emotional situations.

Michael, this sounds similiar to Stanislav Grof's holotropic breathing that I've experimented with. It is extremely powerful and should probably only be done under proper supervision. It induced an experience in me once where I had a two way conversation with a "being". The being's face appeared floating in the middle of my completely dark room. The being emitted light from itself that illuminated my room to the point that shadows where cast. I spoke to the being out loud and heard it's voice externally spoken, not "inside my head". It was hands down the most intense "hallucinogenic" experience I've ever had and I was on no drugs.

 

I mean, can Winn run a marathon? When he gets exhausted in the tenth mile does he just check in with his dan tien and refuel fro the next 16? Somehow I doubt it.

Spyrelx, I think this is the exact distinction between Marital vs. Spiritual retention that Craig is talking about, or in my words further up, Power vs. Love. IMO it's likely that frequent (ie, more than once a week) ejaculation will cause a power drain, decreasing your performance in sports and perhaps even your competitive edge in general, eg. in business, romance, personal life, etc. But IMO if you are consistently extracting Power from your Jing and refining it into the higher centers of Love and Wisdom then IMO what happens with your actual literal semen is not so important. IOW if you want to cultivate Bliss and Lovingkindness, the long-term semen retention obsession is just not necessary, maybe even detrimental. If you want to be a great athlete, maybe it's more important. If you want both then you find a balance. Just my two cents.

 

Sean.