Andrew Lum/Patrick Moon contact

[-O-]

...it might be in regards to this.

 

 

 

Whether true or not, Max's account about confronting and besting his Maoshan teacher after his teacher turned to energetic vampirism, isn't an auspicious one to have in one's lineage...

[ssttinstitute]

Edited September 2, 2009 by ssttinstitute

[Maeven]

I have respectfully edited this as the post Sifu Hata wrote at the same time addresses everything well. I wish well being to everyone here and want to leave this topic in peace.

Edited September 1, 2009 by Maeven

[yangluchan]

Everything I'm saying is true, whether people want to consider or accept it or not, it is still true. There is something wrong here. What happens next, if anything, is up to those who are in it. I wish everyone peace and happiness. I will bow out of this forum now. People can choose to flame me, or accuse me of lying, but I am not. There is something not right here. I just hope this helps people look a little harder at what's beneath the surface.

 

Maeven, just one question:

 

Is is the practices or the organization of things you think is wrong? Do you still do Kunlun and Red Phoenix?

 

Thanks!

[Lucky7Strikes]

[Maeven]

Maeven, just one question:

 

Is is the practices or the organization of things you think is wrong? Do you still do Kunlun and Red Phoenix?

 

Thanks!

Those are two separate topics. I am a Reiki Master Teacher (that's the official title, not my ego) and have practiced energy work and healing through that and through Shamanic studies for 20 years. There was definite energy moving during the workshop, but the manner in which it was moved didn't flow along meridians or natural channels as every other style I've practiced has. I don't see a clear result anywhere in the practice with anyone I've met. I approached my kunlun class after seeing Max's youtube video where he was shooting energy from a distance and making a person across the park spaz out. There was also a shot of a person rushing up to attack him and upon contacting Max's energy field, the man went into instantaneous enlightenment and fell down, awakened and unable to harm Max. What I found later is that this only works on students who allow the energy in. I was told from a number of sources that it doesn't work on the average Joe Shmoe walking down the street. As I have been practicing martial arts and energy work all my life, and have worked in professions where I need to be able to fight in order to protect myself and other people, I found this information very disappointing. I am already on my path to enlightenment, so my interest in kunlun was only to find more tools to add to my skills which I can use in my life's work, both in psychic and shamanic work, and in physical protection.

 

One thing I've noticed is that in ripping open the 3rd eye in students, that some of them are then forced into a heightened level of psychic awareness, and then come under attack from entities that exist in that realm. They have no support or help in learning how to protect themselves psychically, even after as long as 2 years of training and continuously going to classes. I personally believe that a teacher who brings a student to this level should also teach them how to navigate that world, how to close it down or dampen it if they need to, and most of all, how to protect themselves in that dimension. So this aspect of the teaching has bothered me.

 

My primary concern for suddenly getting on line and speaking up is after seeing a flow of kunlun people with various difficulties, psychically and in dealing with behaviors that are in my opinion abusive and unhealthy. It is my nature to want to help and protect people, and after seeing so many of them with these same two patterns, I felt the need to bring attention to it so that people can get help.

 

No, I have discontinued the kunlun practices. I feel the ones I have already been doing are far more effective, fast and have clearer tangible results for me. I have also been on a path already for 20 years, so my situation will be different in that regard than others. I did not feel kunlun was able to add anything new to the tools I already have.

[gendao]

Edited September 1, 2009 by vortex

[Guest winpro07]

Those are two separate topics. I am a Reiki Master Teacher (that's the official title, not my ego) and have practiced energy work and healing through that and through Shamanic studies for 20 years. There was definite energy moving during the workshop, but the manner in which it was moved didn't flow along meridians or natural channels as every other style I've practiced has. I don't see a clear result anywhere in the practice with anyone I've met. I approached my kunlun class after seeing Max's youtube video where he was shooting energy from a distance and making a person across the park spaz out. There was also a shot of a person rushing up to attack him and upon contacting Max's energy field, the man went into instantaneous enlightenment and fell down, awakened and unable to harm Max. What I found later is that this only works on students who allow the energy in. I was told from a number of sources that it doesn't work on the average Joe Shmoe walking down the street. As I have been practicing martial arts and energy work all my life, and have worked in professions where I need to be able to fight in order to protect myself and other people, I found this information very disappointing. I am already on my path to enlightenment, so my interest in kunlun was only to find more tools to add to my skills which I can use in my life's work, both in psychic and shamanic work, and in physical protection.

 

One thing I've noticed is that in ripping open the 3rd eye in students, that some of them are then forced into a heightened level of psychic awareness, and then come under attack from entities that exist in that realm. They have no support or help in learning how to protect themselves psychically, even after as long as 2 years of training and continuously going to classes. I personally believe that a teacher who brings a student to this level should also teach them how to navigate that world, how to close it down or dampen it if they need to, and most of all, how to protect themselves in that dimension. So this aspect of the teaching has bothered me.

 

My primary concern for suddenly getting on line and speaking up is after seeing a flow of kunlun people with various difficulties, psychically and in dealing with behaviors that are in my opinion abusive and unhealthy. It is my nature to want to help and protect people, and after seeing so many of them with these same two patterns, I felt the need to bring attention to it so that people can get help.

 

No, I have discontinued the kunlun practices. I feel the ones I have already been doing are far more effective, fast and have clearer tangible results for me. I have also been on a path already for 20 years, so my situation will be different in that regard than others. I did not feel kunlun was able to add anything new to the tools I already have.

How many seminar did you attend?

 

How long did you practice?

 

When you look at a practitioner did you not see all the nadis light up in kunlun?

 

When you looked at a practitioner in Red Phoenix did you not see the little alchemy?

 

What does it look like?

 

If you can "see" that the energy is not flowing as you are accustomed to then you must be able to describe

the exact internal pattern you did see?

 

What did it look like? -please be precise

[Guest winpro07]

. I think the point of the demos is simply to show that energy and intent/influence can be exerted over a distance, like a radio. Not that you can remote control people against their will.

 

The demos help people to begin to 'see' . There is a ton of information passed on during

that helps to 'wake-you-up'

Edited September 1, 2009 by winpro07

[Sloppy Zhang]

So, again, not to disrespect, but I don't know anything about the politics or who said what and who washed out whom and all that stuff.

 

But one thing that was brought up was the superiority of this martial art. And, not to be offensive, but that's got to require some proof. The vids on the website don't seem any better than most Wing Chun vids people show as demonstrations.... but WC has a poor track record when it comes to stuff like, say, fighting in the UFC.

 

So to say it's better than MMA and would render MMA useless, well, I'm gonna have to see more than some sloppy looking WC again, no offense. These qi strikes or whatever may be super good. But if they're so super good, why doesn't anybody prove it? You could floor pro fighters without breaking a sweat....

 

I mean, traditional martial arts had to establish themselves. Taiji established itself in actual combat (Yang Lu Chan didn't earn the name "unbeatable Yang" by not fighting). Baguazhang accepted challenge matches. Xingyiquan fought in challenge matches. Heck, if you want to go by "traditional old school rules", you couldn't even hope to run a school without proving your stuff. People would show up and say "who have you fought? How many times have you won?" and if you said something like, "our qi power is too much to use in the ring." They'd laugh and not sign up for your school.

 

Again, I mean no disrespect. I'm on the east coast of the US, Hawaii is quite literally half a world away from me. Haven't seen the MMA Hawaii article. Don't know these members of the MMA community that respect Andrew Lum so much (are these like, karate guys? Some other TMA guys? Or guys who run MMA gyms?) I don't know anything about Andrew Lum or anything beyond what I've heard in regards to him teaching Max, and some dragon dancing.

 

So, Sifu Hata, could you please elaborate a bit more on the martial arts aspect of your school?

Edited September 1, 2009 by Sloppy Zhang

[joeblast]

Lil: Get this to Johnny on the grapevine. Vermin is going to kill Johnny's brother at the savoy theater tomorrow night. Got it?

Polly the parrot: Got it.

[flies away]

Polly the parrot: [arrives at prison mess hall and lands on the shoulder of a prisoner] Vermin is going to kill Johnny's brother at the Savoy theater. Pass it on.

Prisoner: [to the next prisoner sitting next to him] Vermin is going to kill Johnny's brother at the Savoy theater tonight. Pass it on.

Prisoner: [to the next prisoner, "telephone" style] Vermin is going to kill Johnny's mother at the Savoy theater tonight. Pass it on.

Prisoner: [to the next prisoner] Vermin's mother is going to kill Johnny tonight at the Savoy theater. Pass it on.

Prisoner: [to the next prisoner]

[unintelligible]

Prisoner: ... at the Savoy. Pass it on.

Prisoner: There's a message through the grapevine, Johnny.

Johnny Dangerously: Yeah? What is it?

Prisoner: Johnny and the Mothers are playing "Stompin' at the Savoy" in Vermont tonight.

Johnny Dangerously: Vermin's going to kill my brother at the Savoy theater tonight!!!

Prisoner: I didn't say that.

Johnny Dangerously: No, but I know this grapevine.

 

 

Edited September 1, 2009 by joeblast

[portcraig]

I have studied with Sifu Hata since last December. I had previously studied with Max for about a year and took several seminars and privates. I still practice some of the things I learned from Max, like Red Phoenix, and 5 elements standing, as he said those were from Grandmaster Andrew Lum. I am glad I was able to learn those from Max. Studying with Max caused me to be interested in learning more about the martial arts that he had studied with Grandmaster Andrew Lum.

 

I was then fortunate to find Sifu Hata and am grateful that he allowed me to become a student. Sifu Hata is authorized to teach from Si-Jo Patrick Moon and Grandmaster Andrew Lum. I attend his Sunday morning classes which are held in Los Angeles. Sifu Hata is an excellent teacher. He usually spends some time doing healing work on the new student. I have learned the following sets and forms since January: Sifu Hands, Ten Weapons Hands, the five elements forms (Wood, Metal, Fire, Water, and Earth.), Pa Kua stepping set. In January I will start the first of the three spirit fighting forms.

 

It is an honor to be studying with Sifu Hata in this martial art from this authentic Maoshan tradition. I am grateful to Sifu Hata for letting me be his student.

Edited September 1, 2009 by portcraig

[Aetherous]

Whether true or not, Max's account about confronting and besting his Maoshan teacher after his teacher turned to energetic vampirism, isn't an auspicious one to have in one's lineage...

 

That's not how I heard the story, at all, when I was there listening to it.

 

Maeven,

 

I wish you peace and happiness, too.

[Maeven]

That's not how I heard the story, at all, when I was there listening to it.

 

Maeven,

 

I wish you peace and happiness, too.

That was not my quote.

[Maeven]

How many seminar did you attend?

 

How long did you practice?

 

When you look at a practitioner did you not see all the nadis light up in kunlun?

 

When you looked at a practitioner in Red Phoenix did you not see the little alchemy?

 

What does it look like?

 

If you can "see" that the energy is not flowing as you are accustomed to then you must be able to describe

the exact internal pattern you did see?

 

What did it look like? -please be precise

 

It wasn't enough for me to decide to pursue. That doesn't mean it may not work for others. My other practices already more than have it covered. Making me justify my experiences has nothing to do with other people's experiences. They are irrelevant to them.

 

In Reiki the tangible results are in healing, which can be measured with diagnostic equipment. In psychic/Shamanic work it's measured in the resolution of the attack or conflict, and with precog or channeled information that can later be confirmed. In SSTT you can measure the effects on a person's nervous system or in the ceasing of paranormal attack. In kl, the goal is enlightenment, which can only be measured by a person's deeds or possibly if they can walk through walks or become invisible. I haven't seen the latter two, so my default is with the deeds. A number of people with the same issues makes a pattern and was cause for alarm.

 

If the problems behind the scenes get resolved and the environment is a healthy one in which your students can flourish, you'll have my respect. If attacks are made on others or myself, it can be verified with other masters and will become public. My goal is the well being of all involved, not in arguing about techniques or lineages. If things get resolved, become healthy and stable in that, I will be happy to retract or update what I've said.

[Aetherous]

That was not my quote.

 

I know.

[ssttinstitute]

Why not contribute and add to the the "peace"?

Sifu Hata,

 

I'm afraid you did not address the "endgame" of Maoshan besides it being "simple."

 

If you come to class we do go more into details and history. The end game was always about 'Spirit Fighting'. It has never been about easy enlightenment or instant bliss. Maoshan is about hard work and a lot of suffering in the physical and metaphysical to attain enlightenment. This also includes many years of focused, dedicated practice. Because of the confusion of the Kunlun/Maoshan branding many Kunlun students thought they were learning the pure Maoshan. Again this can be easily verified through Andrew Lum and Patrick Moon.

 

Fighting evil spirits, curses, black magic or whatever term you feel most comfortable. Once proficient it gives the person the ability to send the spirit(s) or curse back to the person or entity with devastating effects. I do have it written above in length why this art is not to be abused to hurt others. I have since edited my spelling and syntax so when you re-read the post it will make more sense. Max has someone else writing his post for him. I do not have the luxury of letting anyone write or post for me.

 

There have been discrepancies that Chris is the mastermind of Kunlun while Max only gives the classes and seminars so they have the ability for plausible deniability where no one person will take responsibility if there are discrepancies. Because I have to answer directly to Patrick Moon and Andrew Lum, I don't give answers about not wanting to communicate with them. I encourage my students to visit both Andrew Lum and Patrick Moon when visiting Hawaii. For any of the students who want to visit Andrew Lum or Patrick Moon, you will not be subjected to any training that is extremely difficult. You will be treated as a guest, so there is no fear if you want to visit classes given by Andrew Lum or Patrick Moon.

 

The main problem is that for some people it became to easy to use limited knowledge of this art to harm other people even if they do not have any intention of hurting others.

 

For this reason I had posted a courtesy alert to Max and the Kunlun/Maoshan community that there are people in his community who are suffering with no place to go. This also was also a wake up call that Andrew Lum and Patrick Moon will be made aware of any major improprieties of people trying to label their martial arts teaching as "Maoshan" without authorization. If people have a question about what is or is not authentic, you can now compare notes directly with Andrew Lum, Patrick Moon or myself.

 

The end game is also about helping and empowering people! It is not about training followers that need to be led. If people are not being empowered then there is a support group and a way of validating what you learn as being authentic from the *SOURCE*! My students have always been free to visit any martial arts class. Some of my students have already met Patrick Moon and/or Andrew Lum. Max may not have been aware that some people in his group were so frightened of him. Now that he is aware, he has the ability to be more sensitive toward the needs of his students.

 

My classes are different and trains individuals to be mentally and spiritually very tough and disciplined. This type of training may not be for everyone, so my students are free to visit and join Kunlun or any other disciplines that they feel is more suitable for them. I don't know where the Kunlun community was getting the idea that Max is doing mind control, but this has to stop! If Max tries to comfort his community and his students still are unable to break out of this mentality, then I have offered my assistance regarding this matter.

 

For the ancient history version, "In the beginnning.."; come visit our classes as we go indepth into this tradition.

 

The SSTT website was offline, but it is now fully operational

http://www.sstt-institute.org/

[gendao]

If you come to class we do go more into details and history. The end game was always about 'Spirit Fighting'. It has never been about easy enlightenment or instant bliss. Maoshan is about hard work and a lot of suffering in the physical and metaphysical to attain enlightenment. This also includes many years of focused, dedicated practice. Because of the confusion of the Kunlun/Maoshan branding many Kunlun students thought they were learning the pure Maoshan. Again this can be easily verified through Andrew Lum and Patrick Moon.

 

Fighting evil spirits, curses, black magic or whatever term you feel most comfortable. Once proficient it gives the person the ability to send the spirit(s) or curse back to the person or entity with devastating effects. I do have it written above in length why this art is not to be abused to hurt others. I have since edited my spelling and syntax so when you re-read the post it will make more sense. Max has someone else writing his post for him. I do not have the luxury of letting anyone write or post for me.

 

There have been discrepancies that Chris is the mastermind of Kunlun while Max only gives the classes and seminars so they have the ability for plausible deniability where no one person will take responsibility if there are discrepancies. Because I have to answer directly to Patrick Moon and Andrew Lum, I don't give answers about not wanting to communicate with them. I encourage my students to visit both Andrew Lum and Patrick Moon when visiting Hawaii. For any of the students who want to visit Andrew Lum or Patrick Moon, you will not be subjected to any training that is extremely difficult. You will be treated as a guest, so there is no fear if you want to visit classes given by Andrew Lum or Patrick Moon.

 

The main problem is that for some people it became to easy to use limited knowledge of this art to harm other people even if they do not have any intention of hurting others.

 

For this reason I had posted a courtesy alert to Max and the Kunlun/Maoshan community that there are people in his community who are suffering with no place to go. This also was also a wake up call that Andrew Lum and Patrick Moon will be made aware of any major improprieties of people trying to label their martial arts teaching as "Maoshan" without authorization. If people have a question about what is or is not authentic, you can now compare notes directly with Andrew Lum, Patrick Moon or myself.

 

The end game is also about helping and empowering people! It is not about training followers that need to be led. If people are not being empowered then there is a support group and a way of validating what you learn as being authentic from the *SOURCE*! My students have always been free to visit any martial arts class. Some of my students have already met Patrick Moon and/or Andrew Lum. Max may not have been aware that some people in his group were so frightened of him. Now that he is aware, he has the ability to be more sensitive toward the needs of his students.

 

My classes are different and trains individuals to be mentally and spiritually very tough and disciplined. This type of training may not be for everyone, so my students are free to visit and join Kunlun or any other disciplines that they feel is more suitable for them. I don't know where the Kunlun community was getting the idea that Max is doing mind control, but this has to stop! If Max tries to comfort his community and his students still are unable to break out of this mentality, then I have offered my assistance regarding this matter.

 

For the ancient history version, "In the beginnning.."; come visit our classes as we go indepth into this tradition.

 

The SSTT website was offline, but it is now fully operational

http://www.sstt-institute.org/

I'm just curious, what sort of physical and metaphysical suffering are we talking about? Taking lots of painful, but empowered hits? Holding grueling training stances or forms for hours? Detoxing? Is the suffering during the training itself, or after-effects from the training?

 

Also, is there any similarity with "traditional" (like Quanzhen) Taoist alchemical methods, often involving a lot of seated meditation to open the various orbits and channels?

Edited September 2, 2009 by vortex

[Guest winpro07]

It wasn't enough for me to decide to pursue. That doesn't mean it may not work for others. My other practices already more than have it covered. Making me justify my experiences has nothing to do with other people's experiences. They are irrelevant to them.

 

In Reiki the tangible results are in healing, which can be measured with diagnostic equipment. In psychic/Shamanic work it's measured in the resolution of the attack or conflict, and with precog or channeled information that can later be confirmed. In SSTT you can measure the effects on a person's nervous system or in the ceasing of paranormal attack. In kl, the goal is enlightenment, which can only be measured by a person's deeds or possibly if they can walk through walks or become invisible. I haven't seen the latter two, so my default is with the deeds. A number of people with the same issues makes a pattern and was cause for alarm.

 

If the problems behind the scenes get resolved and the environment is a healthy one in which your students can flourish, you'll have my respect. If attacks are made on others or myself, it can be verified with other masters and will become public. My goal is the well being of all involved, not in arguing about techniques or lineages. If things get resolved, become healthy and stable in that, I will be happy to retract or update what I've said.

What is your connection with Hata, Lum, Moon?

[ssttinstitute]

What is your connection with Hata, Lum, Moon?

 

Winpro07, Maeven is one of my students. That is the association between Maeven and Sifu Hata. I notice you are starting to pick on Maeven? What is it that you want or need to know?

 

If I may ask, who are you to speak on behalf of Max? Can't Max type his own post to the forum rather then relaying messages through you?

 

If you live in Los Angeles, I can arrange a meeting so you can meet both myself and Patrick Moon. You can then ask Patrick Moon yourself what is my relationship and Max relationship in connection with Patrick Moon, Andrew Lum and Maoshan. Patrick Moon is really busy now so I could only arrange a 10-15min meeting. He will be returning to Hawaii shortly.

 

It is my belief that you/winpro07 are also at least a Kunlun Facilitator or a Kunlun Instructor. At least I give you this respect which is more than you are giving my student Maeven.

 

Brah, Who you? No gimme hard time where you live? If you live in L.A. you're welcome to attend my classes. Just sign up on the meetup below

http://www.sstt-institute.org/classes.html

 

If you live in Hawaii, Patrick Moon will be more than happy to explain the relationship between Max and myself in relationship to Maoshan and Andrew Lum. --and I'm still polite as I am not making any demands other than you identify yourself before I make the introductions

 

The Kunlun Facilitator/Instructor is below, just let me know!

http://www.primordialalchemist.com/Instruc...acilitator.html

 

Vortex

I'm just curious, what sort of physical and metaphysical suffering are we talking about? Taking lots of painful, but empowered hits? Holding grueling training stances or forms for hours? Detoxing? Is the suffering during the training itself, or after-effects from the training?

 

Also, is there any similarity with "traditional" (like Quanzhen) Taoist alchemical methods, often involving a lot of seated meditation to open the various orbits and channels?

 

Vortex Just as it is difficult to understand how Kunlun manipulates energy for "Bliss" with the use of "cooperative energy". Maoshan works on manipulation of energy for "Pain" and using "Non-Coopertive" energy. The shaking that you see on Kunlun is cooperative energy. If you see my class or Patrick Moon's class, we have learned that "Mr. Pain" and non-cooperative energy is our best friend. You see someone shaking in Patrick Moon's class or my class, they are in pain.

 

Please note that this is not trying to intimidate any members of this forum from visiting SSTT or Patrick Moon's class. Andrew Lum's classes are run much differently as "spirit fighting" is not what he teaches to his student. Patrick Moon teaches some of Andrew Lum's classes just so the students will see the Maoshan spirit fighting techniques.

 

"Mr. Pain" and "uncooperative energy" is very difficult to explain in metaphysical terms especially in words; however, you are more than welcome to visit our classes. Our classes are very friendly only because we cannot be afford to be unfriendly. This art is far too dangerous so we do treat this art with respect as we do all our students.

 

http://www.sstt-institute.org/

[Guest winpro07]

whether you are aware or not, you have caused very much harm.

 

Quote Maeven:

 

""Kunlun people are now being forbidden and threatened from inquiring about the SSTT side of Max's training/lineage, or having any contact with people able to confirm or deny his claims""

 

Did Maeven hear this from Hata or did Hata hear this from Maeven?

 

In either case it is gossip.

 

Gossip is always disrespectful.

 

Hata was advertised several time on the Kunlunforum.

 

The posts are still there.

[freeform]

People are making assertions about what 'the kunlun community' think and do. So as someone who's part of 'the kunlun community' I wanted to clear some things up.

 

In all the times I met Max, never was it stated that the Kunlun practice has anything to do with martial arts or 'control' of anyone or anything.

 

In fact, it has been made abundantly clear - both verbally and experientially in practice - that your progress is directly correlated with how willing you are to let go of any contrived, superficial control and your willingness to open your heart.

 

Never was I, or anyone I know, told in any way, directly or otherwise, that we shouldn't see any teacher that we want to see. And SSTT was openly advertised on the Kunlun Forum.

 

Max teaches Kunlun, not Maoshan. And he respectfully explains that the techniques we practice in Kunlun originate in disparate Maoshan traditions - as taught by Jenny Lamb and Andrew Lum.

 

So assertions made by Maeven - such as "Kunlun people are now being forbidden and threatened from inquiring about the SSTT", or that we "feel vulnerable, scared, disproportionately indebted, unworthy because you have virtually nothing to show for the hard work at your practice, isolated, abused, at risk from the psychic part of the training or from your teacher, and unable to protect yourself." And implications that we revere Max as some kind of Master that we need to follow like mindless cultists is disrespectful to us and to Max.

 

Maeven, please don't include me in your generalised assertions. If you want to make specific comments and share opinions on specific events and people, then you're welcome to do so. By specific I mean what you, directly, saw, heard, felt or smelled/tasted... So rather than "x does Y" you would say "on monday I saw x do y"... Otherwise all the deletions, distortions and generalisations make your information as useful as provocative fiction - although entertainment should not be undervalued.

[YMWong]

I find it funny, if not sad, that with so much information available nowaday people would still believe that a bunch of kung fu/lion dance people have anything to do with Daoism, just because they call themselves 'maoshan'

 

What a pity

 

YM

[Lucky7Strikes]

I agree with freeform.

 

Max did mention not harassing his teachers when there was a lot of suspicion about his authenticity.

 

He has also stated several times that he isn't a master or a teacher. To see him as such is a mistake on the part of the practitioner.

 

Kunlun has always been about the guiding the individual.

 

Seems much misinformation is going around.

Edited September 2, 2009 by Lucky7Strikes

[Guest C Yu C He Taiji]

Thanks freeform, that is just exactly what i think