Andrew Lum/Patrick Moon contact

[Aetherous]

Since Mao Shan is becoming "public," I find it disheartening that it be introduced by a thread where it is more about conflicts than the art itself. sad.gif .

 

Good point. I wonder if this is what Si-Jo Moon would want.

[Mantra68]

I am surprised someone of Dr. Hata's level is so skeptical of the Gold Dragon Body state. What is funny is that Max has never mentioned it with any arrogance or to impress people. He has always downplayed it if anything, as it is just a marker along the path, not necessarily the end point (there is life after the GDB).

 

It is not some great achievement to try to prove to people. That is the wrong thinking.

 

There have been several cases where students in our seminars have witnessed Max in this state, so it is very real. People have even photographed him in this state. Some of you on this forum even have seen this. It is amazing, but it is also no big deal.

 

When Kan started to go transparent at a Starbucks in Tokyo in front of hundreds of people (much to his and their surprise), Max had to instruct him on a certain type of breathing to maintain his physical state. He could not give such advice without first understanding this state himself.

 

So, the point is that this stuff is real and I guess if you have never experienced it, it can seem like a big deal. It is not. Life goes on.

 

Also, people always accuse us of trying to create a cult. This is the most absurd thing in the world. If Max wanted a cult he could have easily had one. He did not.

 

If you want a cult you don't quit in the middle of creating one. Duuuuuuuuuuh.

 

Max QUIT TEACHING to prevent having more followers. His mission was to get the methods out there and that is what he did. When it was done, he quit.

 

Now everyone wants to audit his performance, desperately scrounging for even the slightest flaw in his approach and magnifying the significance of it to a ridiculous level.

 

Lame.

 

As some of you have suggested, Dr. Hata should be aware that he is coming off as a bit jealous of Max's ability and perhaps that has fueled his tirade of self promotion (ala Starjumper7) while broadcasting his alignment with Lum and Moon under the guise of defending them. I'm not sure Sifu Lum or Sifu Moon would appreciate this.

 

I think he seems very skilled and could be quite successful on his own (like Max), without using others to make his name.

 

I wish him the best.

[ssttinstitute]

 

It quickly became clear that this thread is nothing more than an advertising campaign.

 

Amazing how many times the names 'Andrew Lum' and 'Patrick Moon' could come up in one paragraph!

 

I know it sounds funny, but one of Andrew Lum's students has a travel agency.. so I'm just making it easier if you have a group of MMA people interested.

 

However times Andrew Lum's or Patrick Moon's name is mentioned is very little compare to Max. Most of the Kunlun Bliss people are just normal, average people leading perfectly normal lives.

 

Because of the inner politics of Kunlun/Maoshan, everyone in my class and Max's class can now visit the source of Maoshan. Max's students can verify how great, spendid, grand, etc. etc. Max is in real everyday life. Idol worship and cult tactics is something seriously detrimental to healthy behavior.

 

Andrew Lum is a very nice man, but I don't worship him nor idolize him. In fact this is the first thread I even discuss the attributes of Andrew. You don't need to see him as a 'Golden Dragon body'. He doesn't wear all the fancy clothes Max wears.. when I've met with Andrew Lum he very simple clothes. When you go to his class back in the days when Max started, Andrew was so low key that you wouldn't even know that he was a sifu.

 

No one worships Andrew Lum, no one is shaking or going into convulsion, no one is following Andrew Lum around when he has his classes. Andrew Lum doesn't charge $600 per seminar nor does he charge $1000 to be a teacher or facilitator. That is why I encourage the Kunlun/Maoshan community to visit Andrew Lum to get a clear perspective of Andrew Lum. This is why I find it highly odd that no Kunlun student, Facilitator, Instructor has ever met Andrew Lum. Until recently Andrew Lum only taught Tai Chi and Tao Ga with different variations.

 

The true Maoshan 'Spirit Fighting' for demonstration and explanation is to be done through Patrick Moon. When MMA Hawaii August 2009 went public, those of you who are curious about Maoshan have the opportunity to visit Patrick Moon.. bring all your UFC/MMA friends, etc.

 

Many of my students are highly critical of Patrick Moon, some think he is mean, some nice, some think this or that, etc. etc. At least my students are speaking from personal experience. I am not brainwashing my students to think Patrick Moon is nice, good, bad, extreme, subdue. My senior students don't need to hear stories about Patrick Moon because they met him in person. Their opinions are their own and not brainwash propaganda.

 

winpro07, you can only talk about how great Max is, then speak on behalf of Max, then again this could be Max, himself hiding behind this call sign. That is why there are people who love, despise, fear Max because very few are in the inner circle really know Max. My students heard many stories about Patrick Moon and many visited him.. then one day he showed up to a Tao class in L.A. posing as a student.. there is a big difference between stories about Patrick Moon and the reality of meeting Patrick Moon.

 

winpro07 a lot of stories about Max, but who are you and what is your relationship to Max? Have you ever seen Andrew Lum or Patrick Moon in person? What are you so afraid to identify yourself, yet bold enough to speak on behalf of Max! You are very good at trying to pick on my students, but every time you weasel out of answering my questions with more praises about Max. Come visit our classes in person in Los Angeles or Patrick Moon class in Hawaii --rather hiding behind your call sign Let me know where you have your Kunlun/Maoshan practice, if Los Angeles or Hawaii, so we can experience you BLISS? You don't even have the dignify to enlighten us with your vast great, experiences Instead you rather pick on my student which is much easier. Come pick on Patrick Moon or myself then you try picking our students in person rather than hiding behind your winpro07 like a "coward" When you visit us we will verify who you are without any problems. I wouldn't make this an issue, but you have been so aggressive, disrespectful and rude toward my student.. that I am trying to extend an 'olive branch' of peace so you can experience true Maoshan Hawaiian hospitality! So what are you afraid of if you have so much BLISS and Kunlun magic?

http://www.sstt-institute.org/

 

By the way Max also knows Andrew Lum's student that has the travel agency in Hawaii so contact Max for special rates so Max can shoulder some of the responsibilities for using the name 'Maoshan/Andrew Lum' legacy! The offer was only for serious inquiries; otherwise, you any online travel agency

[-O-]

I implore you to stop.I honestly feel you are disgracing the men you hold in esteem with your posts.

 

At first you where saying things about uprooting Kunlun, then about abuse of students, then about your own student (which was right out of left fild), then about disrespecting elders, now cult tactics and event promotion.

 

You come across as a child in a playground picking fights - in fact you come across as manic.

 

So I ask with sincerity. How are you feeling? Are you okay?

Edited September 4, 2009 by -O-

[Owledge]

Dear Dr. Hata,

 

while I clearly see a lot of virtue in your writings, I also get a sense that apparently martial arts (almost always) has a powerful ego-boosting effect, or poses a serious competition for the development of humility. You stress your masters as the source, the original, the pure, real thing, and maybe you don't notice so much that you step in a trap there by automatically seeing Max in a strictly traditional hierarchy, because you take your lineage very serious and think in this hierarchical way. I also am a bit confused (after I saw your videos trying to convince people of the amazing art of spirit fighting) that you are so sceptical of the Golden Dragon Body phenomenon. Please look deep inside you and at least consider that while Max might not be valued highest in your ranking system, he probably has superceded traditional Mao Shan in certain aspects (by combining techniques), or to say it in another way, developed in a different direction that has the potential to even amaze you Mao Shan martial arts people, and that this creates a conflict in you due to your (alleged) view I described here. Although you seem to agree that it's about some of Max's students having trouble, you occasionally fall back to cheap shots against Max, a typical sign of inner demons speaking.

You should not only invite 'Kunloonies' to learn more about Mao Shan, but you should also do an effort to learn more about Kunlun, for your writings sometimes show that you simply lack some insight into or deeper knowledge of its current state. (Like when you mention Max's fancy clothes. You apparently don't know what Max himself said about the clothes thing.)

 

Tradition has its place in the world, but innovation has, too, for it serves evolution/development, without which humankind would stand still forever.

 

I in parts derive this thesis from history's accounts of even allegedly very enlightened (more likely just very skilled and revered) masters who still show basic fears as motivation for their actions and thinking. We all can only evolve spiritually in steps and can't immediately see all our deepest fears/demons, so we should always practice this awareness. So naturally I think that you still have inner demons (or attachments) to deal with, as has Andrew Lum, as has Patrick Moon, as has Max (that's why he is suffering), and of course certainly I have a whole lot of them, too.

Edited September 4, 2009 by Hardyg

[Mal]

(One thing I find interesting in these threads is how much impact they have on search engine rankings).

Yes TTB hits 1st page on google a LOT. This is both a blessing and a curse.

 

What do you think more than 10 pages but less than 20? Lets hope not but TTB loves a kunlun argument

[Maeven]

So assertions made by Maeven - such as "Kunlun people are now being forbidden and threatened from inquiring about the SSTT", or that we "feel vulnerable, scared, disproportionately indebted, unworthy because you have virtually nothing to show for the hard work at your practice, isolated, abused, at risk from the psychic part of the training or from your teacher, and unable to protect yourself." And implications that we revere Max as some kind of Master that we need to follow like mindless cultists is disrespectful to us and to Max.

 

Maeven, please don't include me in your generalised assertions. If you want to make specific comments and share opinions on specific events and people, then you're welcome to do so. By specific I mean what you, directly, saw, heard, felt or smelled/tasted... So rather than "x does Y" you would say "on monday I saw x do y"... Otherwise all the deletions, distortions and generalisations make your information as useful as provocative fiction - although entertainment should not be undervalued.

 

 

I knew I would be flamed for speaking up. One can imagine how much worse the reaction would be on the actual people being threatened and blackmailed if they were to do the same. That's probably really making it hard for them to do so. Not exactly a friendly environment for anyone except for the leader.

 

I'm not at liberty to reveal their personal information because they are actually being threatened, and they are the ones left to deal with those ramifications. As it is, me even saying any of this at all is causing enough problems.

 

Just to clarify once again, yes, I know these people directly. I know at least 6 people this has happened to, and I never said it was happening to everyone. If you missed the half dozen folks mentioned a few times already, hopefully now you would be aware of that. It's only because they are having the same issues that I have come to see it as a pattern and a community issue and not just individual ones.

 

Why is this community spending so much of it's energy protecting Max and not on taking care of the members having problems? I only wanted to alert the community so people can question a few things and hopefully get this situation resolved, but instead all that's happening is anyone who dares speak a negative about Max or kl gets burned at the stake! At the same time, many are contacting SSTT people behind the public front asking for help and describing a LOT of problems--all with this same pattern, yet no one has the courage to tell the kl community! I can see better now why they are so apprehensive to do so.

 

I have always said all along that perhaps this practice DOES work for some, but when a sister group is having a spill over of kl people seeking help and all describing the same problems, fears, etc., it's hard to just watch that and keep your mouth shut. Use the good parts that work, but don't be afraid to make corrections with things that don't. It doesn't mean you have to throw the baby out with the bath water. You guys are trying to reach enlightenment. That's about awareness and taking the whole thing in. Take care of your own community and make sure it's truly a healthy one for everyone involved. A good place to start is to get out of flat denial and work on making it a safe space for people who are having issues--whether with people dynamics or with the practice, to be able to express that and get help with working to remedy it without being criticized, ostracized, attacked or blamed for reaching out.

 

My intention is not to destroy your group, I just want to bring what the SSTT people are experiencing into the group's awareness so you guys can take care of the issue and hopefully make a few corrections or adjustments to help those folks. No one can ever come forward if faced with being ostracized, blamed and torn apart simply from asking for help or saying that something is not working. This doesn't mean it's the same 100% for every single member. But there are enough kl people WE are encountering who are in crisis, that we just wanted your community to raise it's awareness and do something to fix those issues.

 

For those of you with nothing better to do than make personal attacks on anyone for speaking up, why are you so resistant to taking a deeper look? How does that possibly threaten you? If this isn't a cult mentality, then humbly taking a closer look to see if and why any members of the community are in distress, or to see if the situations we are mentioning could truly exist in some way and if there is a better way to perhaps handle them, and to create a safe space for people to speak up, should not destroy your gains in this practice, but rather strengthen them. Your concern should be making sure everyone in your community is ok, not only in defending Max. This issue isn't about blame, people are human and make mistakes. It's about taking care of one another.

 

I keep getting PM's and emails pulling me back into this thread, and all that really awaits me here is more attacks for speaking out. I have no interest in the drama or politics, and really don't want to be involved other than that I want the people I know and any others who need it to get help, to feel safe, and to not be afraid. I don't intend to be on this forum regularly (hopefully not at all) to have to keep justifying or defending myself. Please use your energy to ensure the well being of your community instead. Not everyone is having the same happy experience that some of you are having. When the situation remedies that my friends are going through, I'll be happy to retract my statements, but not until I see it. Again, my intention is not to harm your group by bringing attention to this, it is in the hopes that your community will take the concern seriously and work to correct it. I want to see everyone here succeed on their path.

 

I have no further intention of being involved in this, other than to update when the people I know are in a safe place and their issues are resolved. Please don't keep expecting to engage me further in defending myself, revealing private information of the folks in question, or use my absence as opportunity to argue with my silence and then claim no reaction from me as "proof" that you won your argument. I will come back on the forum when I see the problems solved and post an update. It's my hope that the community can heal these issues internally rather than attack, deny or blame those who would dare mention that they exist. This, too, is a part of the Path.

[gendao]

Edited September 4, 2009 by vortex

[Aetherous]

Maeven,

 

Fellow practitioners are experiencing problems.

They don't tell us.

They go to someone else and ask for help.

That someone else comes here and asks, "Why don't you guys help each other with your problems?"

 

...

 

That is what has taken place, from my viewpoint. And I check both forums regularly.

 

If people are having trouble and need help, then they need to speak up. I have no idea who they are!

 

They need to go on the kunlun forum and actually post something. Or do it here on taobums. Many practitioners who aren't even facilitators/instructors/Max are able to help...some of us have been through some of the things that may occur. In my view, no matter who it is, generally great advice is given.

 

I still don't believe this threatening and blackmail BS. There is still no real evidence for the claims. In my opinion, people are making it up entirely.

 

If you're going to make the claim, then actually prove me wrong and show evidence. Otherwise, no one should believe it. It is just outsiders trying to slander the community/practice.

 

Many taobums protect what is right and true, and that's all that's happening here. We are not defending our great master, Max...we're defending against people being able to come here and slander someone/a practice for the wrong reasons. It's a worthwhile use of energy. In the past, when there were legitimate concerns, many of us were very open to letting discussion occur about possible problems (see the "kunlun follow up poll" thread).

 

Now, when there are false rumors being spread with devious intentions, you won't find us being so lenient!

 

...gets burned at the stake!

 

Yikes...is that really happening, or are people simply disagreeing with you?

 

Lets keep this drama free, and simply focus on any real issues, instead of your projections.

 

why are you so resistant to taking a deeper look?

 

At least personally, I'm not. People experiencing problems should feel free to share what's happening, and seek help.

 

To those in need: if you do it publicly on this forum, I will protect you. I don't think my fellow practitioners would flame someone for simply asking for help, but just in case, know that I will stand by your side and argue against anyone who tries.

 

to create a safe space for people to speak up

 

The taobums is a safe place. Specifically, I think personal practice journals here are very safe. We can moderate our own journals (delete posts of others we don't like).

 

If anyone is getting hassled by my fellow Kunluners for simply asking for help, I will make it my personal mission to see that it ends. That's wrong behavior.

 

I haven't actually seen it happen, and won't tolerate it if it does.

[mgd]

[Guest winpro07]

Edited September 4, 2009 by winpro07

[Aetherous]

It is in your best interest to keep your conversation private.

 

I highly disagree.

 

Unless there's a good reason?

 

...

 

Edit: By the way, for those who don't want to "go public", and require direct assistance from the teacher who taught them...Max just said on the kunlun forum that you can PM him and he wants to help. I'm not his spokesperson, but people who don't see that message should should know that he offered this.

Edited September 5, 2009 by Scotty

[Aetherous]

Somewhat personal-toned post...but it has an actual point relevant to all, regarding helping others...

 

Okay. Above, I offered to defend anyone who has problems in feeling free to ask for help on this forum. I was honest. I said I will stand by their side if anyone tries to badmouth and flame them.

 

That is me, taking my time and energy, and making a promise, to assist someone else. It's not something I have to do. I just think it's right, and it's worth the expenditure.

 

What's so wrong about this?

 

I got a couple of PMs from someone (guess who) saying that I'm a big hypocrite for offering my help...and that they'll post "proof" of my hypocrisy.

 

 

You will know who it is, if they actually do that. I told them to go ahead.

 

Now, I'm not posting this because I'm afraid of what I've said in the past, or how I'll seem when the "true Scott" is revealed. It should be obvious that I don't really give a damn how I'm seen, because I'm posting this personal thing here for all to see.

 

The point:

 

I'm posting this, because I feel that it's good to bring the question to light: can we actually help others without being perfect people ourselves?

 

I think so.

 

Is it wrong for someone like me, who is essentially a nobody, to offer their help?

 

I really don't think so.

Edited September 5, 2009 by Scotty

[ssttinstitute]

Maeven,

 

Fellow practitioners are experiencing problems.

They don't tell us.

They go to someone else and ask for help.

That someone else comes here and asks, "Why don't you guys help each other with your problems?"

 

...

 

That is what has taken place, from my viewpoint. And I check both forums regularly.

 

If people are having trouble and need help, then they need to speak up. I have no idea who they are!

 

They need to go on the kunlun forum and actually post something. Or do it here on taobums. Many practitioners who aren't even facilitators/instructors/Max are able to help...some of us have been through some of the things that may occur. In my view, no matter who it is, generally great advice is given.

 

I still don't believe this threatening and blackmail BS. There is still no real evidence for the claims. In my opinion, people are making it up entirely.

 

If you're going to make the claim, then actually prove me wrong and show evidence. Otherwise, no one should believe it. It is just outsiders trying to slander the community/practice.

 

Many taobums protect what is right and true, and that's all that's happening here. We are not defending our great master, Max...we're defending against people being able to come here and slander someone/a practice for the wrong reasons. It's a worthwhile use of energy. In the past, when there were legitimate concerns, many of us were very open to letting discussion occur about possible problems (see the "kunlun follow up poll" thread).

 

Now, when there are false rumors being spread with devious intentions, you won't find us being so lenient!

Yikes...is that really happening, or are people simply disagreeing with you?

 

Lets keep this drama free, and simply focus on any real issues, instead of your projections.

At least personally, I'm not. People experiencing problems should feel free to share what's happening, and seek help.

 

To those in need: if you do it publicly on this forum, I will protect you. I don't think my fellow practitioners would flame someone for simply asking for help, but just in case, know that I will stand by your side and argue against anyone who tries.

The taobums is a safe place. Specifically, I think personal practice journals here are very safe. We can moderate our own journals (delete posts of others we don't like).

 

If anyone is getting hassled by my fellow Kunluners for simply asking for help, I will make it my personal mission to see that it ends. That's wrong behavior.

 

I haven't actually seen it happen, and won't tolerate it if it does.

 

Hi Scotty, I've seen many of your past post and your voice has always been a voice of reason We can all learn to agree to disagree agreeably, to help each other and work together toward mutual peace.

 

Please know that our SSTT classes are so much easier than they was in previous years. My training with S-Jo Moon was so rough and brutal that washout rates were very high When Si-Jo Moon did visit the Los Angeles classes some of the L.A. students thought that they could be consoled by Si-Jo Moon voicing their complaints that some training policies were just too rough Si-Jo then went off on all the L.A. students asking, "Do you know 'Why, he(Sifu Hata) is the way he is?" This went on for hours as one woman kept crying during this whole session. Somewhere around 3a, Si-Jo Moon said, "I made him(Sifu Hata) that way so if you want to blame anyone.. blame me(Si-Jo Moon)!

 

Si-Jo Moon makes the character "John J. Rambo" look like a choir boy. From the reaction of the students that night, we lost even more students. This art is not for everyone and at this time I will never make training as difficult as what I went through for my students!

 

So I do agree with Maeven that any one of Andrew Lum's lineage really needs to take a reality check including SSTT! I have done everything I could to make SSTT more accessible to the public, but also know that sometime next year I am seriously thinking of removing SSTT Martial Arts as it is known today. I am making a serious reality check that something this dangerous should never be accessible to the general public! Please know that I am not in denial and we have lost many students in the past because training had been so difficult.

 

I don't expect any of my students to try and support what I have done in the past nor what I represent today. I don't expect any of my students to stand up for me and tell everyone on this board what a "nice person" I am. If you notice no one on this board including myself is telling anyone on this board what a kind, gentle person I am. There are people reading this forum who know both me(Sifu Hata) and Si-Jo Moon and think both of us are just the meanest SOBs on the planet That is their right as we do not threaten them to change their opinions about us, because we have no problems if they want to leave our classes and join other schools, we do NOT expect them to be our cheerleaders, etc. ! We also do not threaten nor harass our students if they want to quit and/or attend another martial arts, meditation school/classes/seminars.

 

The student aspect of SSTT is very gentle, but I have to rethink my priorities every day including the IC program. No matter how much I try to make this easier, is it still too rough for some? Please know that myself & Si-Jo Moon do make this reality check. Some days are better than others; however, there is always room for improvement. According to Si-Jo Moon.. he said that Andrew Lum makes this reality check every day and IMHO, Andrew Lum does a better job than Si-Jo and myself.

 

All I am asking is that Max does the same reality check.. because his version of Kunlun/Maoshan is way more peaceful than Si-Jo or myself, which is why it is embraced more than SSTT. I have no illusions, people are NOT going to flock to SSTT. I have no illusions that SSTT Martial Arts should seriously consider termination by early next year! SSTT has other options to be more profitable and lucrative for 2010 that we doesn't need martial arts to be successful

 

IMHO, the average person does not need "spirit fighting" to defend themselves against people! For this reason I respect Si-Jo Moon's wishes that all demonstrations and detailed explanations to the public be done through him. Si-Jo Moon is the most qualified person to speak and demonstrate on behalf of this Maoshan Tao.

 

So if all possible let us end this topic which is fine with me. I have not made any remarks against anyone on this forum with this posting and ask that we can leave this topic *AS IS* without any personal attacks or threats against myself, Si-Jo Moon and Andrew Lum. Scotty is truly a man of reason and peace both now and in the past.

 

Anyone is welcome to visit us(myself, Patrick Moon & Andrew Lum) and we welcome you in *Peace*.

 

So if you will allow this "SOB(myself)" some rest and relaxation, everyone have a nice weekend

http://www.sstt-institute.org/

 

edited for grammar & syntax

Edited September 6, 2009 by ssttinstitute

[de_paradise]

Yes, I was just thinking of how balanced and reasonable Scotty's views are, and how nice if this thread were to finally to come to a happy ending.

[Spirit Ape]

I cant believe I just read all those pages!!! LMFAO

Edited September 5, 2009 by Spirit Ape

[ssttinstitute]

THE REAL ANDREW LUM & PATRICK MOON

 

I got a call from Patrick Moon so for those of you that never saw Si-jo Andrew Lum or Si-jo Patrick Moon... This picture below is for the Golden Sash ceremony for Si-jo Andrew Lum given by Si-jo Patrick Moon. The Golden Sash ceremony has been recognized by the City and State of Hawaii. The proclamation given by the Hawaii City Council and State of Hawaii by Lt. Governor Aiona for their contributions to world of the martial arts & the community of Hawaii

 

Si-Jo Andrew Lum & Si-Jo Patrick Moon

These two men are the best of the best in the world and until you've see what they can do.. you've never seen real martial arts.

 

However; to put matters into perspective... true martial art is not about senseless violence for the sake of violence. If you get a chance to read what is given to both Si-Jo Moon and Si-Jo Lum by the city and state of Hawaii... this is all put into perspective.

 

To put another matter into perspective, I have just gotten off the telephone with Si-Jo Patrick Moon who does know of Max Christensen --as well as many other students of Si-Jo Andrew Lum. Max Christensen was never in the Maoshan lineage nor did he received any specialized training from Andrew Lum. I really did not want to ask Patrick Moon today about Max Christensen because I already had feedback from another student of Andrew Lum. Please know that no one has any harsh feelings toward Max Christensen. This is the truth as some of Andrew Lum's students and Patrick Moon's students know about Max and his students "shaking all over the place" The Red Phoenix is not Maoshan. I'm merely trying to put this into perspective as one day some of you, including my students will meet the real Patrick Moon and Andrew Lum. You will then have the opportunity to meet the real Maoshan community and what is really practiced in the art of Maoshan Tao.

 

There are no "hidden secret Maoshan" that Max has been teaching anyone. There are no "conspiracy theories" to harm Max or the Kunlun Community. If you can get Max to tell you the true story about his experience at the grave yard in Maui or how he tried to bring some of his early students to meet Andrew Lum... This is the *REAL* Max!

 

For those students of Max who feel they have benefited from Max's training, bless your hearts and I wish you continued success! There are indeed many good, friendly people I have met within the Kunlun Community so please do not feel intimidated by Andrew Lum, Patrick Moon or me.

 

We, within the Maoshan community were asked not to reveal ourselves for many years...

http://khawaii.com/hk.nsf/PhotoNewsList/D5...A25764700691206

...this being a new era --It was deemed by Andrew Lum that the shroud of secrecy be removed from the few real Maoshan and put to rest the many falsely claiming to be Maoshan.

 

I cant believe I just read all those pages!!! LMFAO

 

Spirit Ape, I completely agree with you!!! LMFAO!

 

http://www.sstt-institute.org/

[gendao]

THE REAL ANDREW LUM & PATRICK MOON

 

I got a call from Patrick Moon so for those of you that never saw Si-jo Andrew Lum or Si-jo Patrick Moon... This picture below is for the Golden Sash ceremony for Si-jo Andrew Lum given by Si-jo Patrick Moon. The Golden Sash ceremony has been recognized by the City and State of Hawaii. The proclamation given by the Hawaii City Council and State of Hawaii by Lt. Governor Aiona for their contributions to world of the martial arts & the community of Hawaii

 

Si-Jo Andrew Lum & Si-Jo Patrick Moon

These two men are the best of the best in the world and until you've see what they can do.. you've never seen real martial arts.

 

However; to put matters into perspective... true martial art is not about senseless violence for the sake of violence. If you get a chance to read what is given to both Si-Jo Moon and Si-Jo Lum by the city and state of Hawaii... this is all put into perspective.

 

To put another matter into perspective, I have just gotten off the telephone with Si-Jo Patrick Moon who does know of Max Christensen --as well as many other students of Si-Jo Andrew Lum. Max Christensen was never in the Maoshan lineage nor did he received any specialized training from Andrew Lum. I really did not want to ask Patrick Moon today about Max Christensen because I already had feedback from another student of Andrew Lum. Please know that no one has any harsh feelings toward Max Christensen. This is the truth as some of Andrew Lum's students and Patrick Moon's students know about Max and his students "shaking all over the place" The Red Phoenix is not Maoshan. I'm merely trying to put this into perspective as one day some of you, including my students will meet the real Patrick Moon and Andrew Lum. You will then have the opportunity to meet the real Maoshan community and what is really practiced in the art of Maoshan Tao.

 

There are no "hidden secret Maoshan" that Max has been teaching anyone. There are no "conspiracy theories" to harm Max or the Kunlun Community. If you can get Max to tell you the true story about his experience at the grave yard in Maui or how he tried to bring some of his early students to meet Andrew Lum... This is the *REAL* Max!

 

For those students of Max who feel they have benefited from Max's training, bless your hearts and I wish you continued success! There are indeed many good, friendly people I have met within the Kunlun Community so please do not feel intimidated by Andrew Lum, Patrick Moon or me.

 

We, within the Maoshan community were asked not to reveal ourselves for many years...

http://khawaii.com/hk.nsf/PhotoNewsList/D5...A25764700691206

...this being a new era --It was deemed by Andrew Lum that the shroud of secrecy be removed from the few real Maoshan and put to rest the many falsely claiming to be Maoshan.

Spirit Ape, I completely agree with you!!! LMFAO!

 

http://www.sstt-institute.org/

Max in a Maui graveyard, hehe, sounds interesting...

So, I guess Andrew Lum is the guy with the yellow leis...and Patrick Moon is the guy in the black suit?

Interesting,

[Lucky7Strikes]

To put another matter into perspective, I have just gotten off the telephone with Si-Jo Patrick Moon who does know of Max Christensen --as well as many other students of Si-Jo Andrew Lum. Max Christensen was never in the Maoshan lineage nor did he received any specialized training from Andrew Lum. I really did not want to ask Patrick Moon today about Max Christensen because I already had feedback from another student of Andrew Lum. Please know that no one has any harsh feelings toward Max Christensen. This is the truth as some of Andrew Lum's students and Patrick Moon's students know about Max and his students "shaking all over the place" The Red Phoenix is not Maoshan. I'm merely trying to put this into perspective as one day some of you, including my students will meet the real Patrick Moon and Andrew Lum. You will then have the opportunity to meet the real Maoshan community and what is really practiced in the art of Maoshan Tao.

 

There are no "hidden secret Maoshan" that Max has been teaching anyone. There are no "conspiracy theories" to harm Max or the Kunlun Community. If you can get Max to tell you the true story about his experience at the grave yard in Maui or how he tried to bring some of his early students to meet Andrew Lum... This is the *REAL* Max!

 

For those students of Max who feel they have benefited from Max's training, bless your hearts and I wish you continued success! There are indeed many good, friendly people I have met within the Kunlun Community so please do not feel intimidated by Andrew Lum, Patrick Moon or me.

 

So Max does not get Red Phoenix from Mao Shan nor has he trained "like a son" under Andrew Lum. .

 

Sifu, please be straight forward with your intentions. You are basically calling Max a liar. Giving a bit of hint at "some" event that happened awhile back claiming it is the "real" Max and what not.

 

But then you say you hope the Kunlun community well because they are good and friendly people. Max is more or less the one who created the Kunlun community, and people have put their trust on the methods he has given. I am sure you are aware of this.

 

You have also openly stated your doubts regarding the "light body" which is one of the things accepted by Kunlun practitioners. Furthermore, why do you assume that people are intimidated by Sifu Lum of Sijo Moon?

 

All this is very puzzling.

Edited October 8, 2009 by Lucky7Strikes

[ssttinstitute]

Max in a Maui graveyard, hehe, sounds interesting...

So, I guess Andrew Lum is the guy with the yellow leis...and Patrick Moon is the guy in the black suit?

Interesting,

 

Yes, you are correct. Andrew Lum is wearing with the yellow leis and Patrick Moon is the man in the black suit

 

 

So Max does not get Red Phoenix from Mao Shan nor has he trained "like a son" under Andrew Lum. .

 

Sifu, please be straight forward with your intentions. You are basically calling Max a liar. Giving a bit of hint at "some" event that happened awhile back claiming it is the "real" Max and what not.

 

But then you say you hope the Kunlun community well because they are good and friendly people.

 

All this is very puzzling.

 

To be more respectful toward Max; however, the answer is "YES"... Max has been less than truthful to his students and to the public about being "like a son" under Andrew Lum. Andrew Lum, Patrick Moon, myself and our students have known this for quite some time .

 

Si-Jo Andrew Lum for many years refused to go public about being a Maoshan master. Many other people like Max had studied briefly or for some time never serious about their studies in Maoshan, only later to call themselves Maoshan masters using the lineage of Andrew Lum as a marketing tool because Andrew Lum is a true Maoshan master. For many years Andrew Lum, Patrick Moon and myself were only "Sifus" but this is what Andrew Lum wanted until the middle of this year(2009). Because there were so many fake and bogus people claiming to be Maoshan, Si-jo Andrew Lum decided that it was time to go public with Maoshan and expose the phony people claiming to be Maoshan! Meanwhile Si-jo Andrew Lum could bring back the dignity of the real Maoshan that the "bogus Maoshan" teachers could never achieve.

 

A Maoshan charlatan like Max (also called swindler or mountebank) is a person practicing quackery or some similar confidence trick in order to obtain money, fame or other advantages via some form of pretence or deception. Please do not confuse this with the sincerity, kindness and genuineness of the Kunlun Community! I am in no way putting down the Kunlun/Maoshan community as I know them to be genuine, kind and sincere. The Kunlun/Maoshan community deserve to know the truth both individually and collectively so they can exercise their free agency to decide whether or not they want to seriously commit themselves to something that is insincere and bogus in it's true origin. Please know that within the Kunlun Community, I have only met sincere, kind individuals. They have been loyal and respectful to Max believing him to be a high level Maoshan Sifu and/or Si-jo which is completely false.

 

Because the Maoshan Sifu and Si-jo training is so difficult, we do not pay our Sifu or Si-jo $1000 to be trained in a week so we can become a Maoshan Sifu or Maoshan Si-jo. Even being a Maoshan Instructor is very difficult that one cannot teach Maoshan without permission and only with guidance from a Maoshan Sifu or Si-jo.

 

Max is correct that learning Maoshan can be very alluring because even with a little knowledge of Maoshan will produce "Maoshan charlatans". "Maoshan charlatans" often possess skills far above the average martial artists "Masters" who have studies for many years in their particular art and field of discipline. Even some of my students have studied under me like Max studied under Andrew Lum then proclaiming themselves to be masters in Maoshan. They conduct classes without permission creating their own mystique to lure in students. Before becoming a Maoshan Sifu, I personally asked both Patrick Moon and Andrew Lum for permission to teach before I started any classes. When one of my students had tried to teach Maoshan without permission, Si-jo Patrick Moon went into an attack mode and personally kicked out my former student from instructing, teaching or learning Maoshan.

 

Now that the State of Hawaii officially recognizes Maoshan Tao through the lineage of Andrew Lum and Patrick Moon...

http://khawaii.com/hk.nsf/PhotoNewsList/D5...A25764700691206

we will be much more pro-active in identifying those individuals claiming to be Maoshan, but are neither qualified nor granted permission to teach Maoshan.

 

Don't expect Maoshan schools to open in your local area like McDonalds or 7/11 as was with Chuck Norris, Ed Parker, Gracie Brothers Jujitsu, studios/schools. The training of Maoshan is so difficult most quit in under 6 months. I terminated the SSTT-Instructor Candidate program recently as my students were unable to handle the training.

 

Maoshan Tao is not about fighting and injuring people so I'll end with this quote from Andrew Lum in the Honolulu Advertiser...

 

http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/article/...6/il/il01a.html

 

"Martial arts are basically for defending yourself from aggression," said Andrew Lum, a tai chi and kung fu instructor. "But sports like Ultimate Fighting, by their very nature, reward people for hurting someone else. And I ask the question, 'What do these people attain from this, other than trophies and lifelong injuries?' "

 

Lum is among the purists concerned about the morphing of martial arts. Traditional kung fu and tai chi, Lum said, hold values that nourish a person's mind, body and spirit. "True martial arts are, in and of themselves, about things like good behavior, respecting yourself, respecting others. But as Americans, we think of what we can take, not what we can give."

 

http://www.sstt-institute.org/

Edited October 8, 2009 by ssttinstitute

[Lucky7Strikes]

To be more respectful toward Max; however, the answer is "YES"... Max has been less than truthful to his students and to the public about being "like a son" under Andrew Lum. Andrew Lum, Patrick Moon, myself and our students have known this for quite some time .

 

Si-Jo Andrew Lum for many years refused to go public about being a Maoshan master. Many other people like Max had studied briefly or for some time never serious about their studies in Maoshan, only later to call themselves Maoshan masters using the lineage of Andrew Lum as a marketing tool because Andrew Lum is a true Maoshan master. For many years Andrew Lum, Patrick Moon and myself were only "Sifus" but this is what Andrew Lum wanted until the middle of this year(2009). Because there were so many fake and bogus people claiming to be Maoshan, Si-jo Andrew Lum decided that it was time to go public with Maoshan and expose the phony people claiming to be Maoshan! Meanwhile Si-jo Andrew Lum could bring back the dignity of the real Maoshan that the "bogus Maoshan" teachers could never achieve.

 

A Maoshan charlatan like Max (also called swindler or mountebank) is a person practicing quackery or some similar confidence trick in order to obtain money, fame or other advantages via some form of pretence or deception. Please do not confuse this with the sincerity, kindness and genuineness of the Kunlun Community! I am in no way putting down the Kunlun/Maoshan community as I know them to be genuine, kind and sincere. The Kunlun/Maoshan community deserve to know the truth both individually and collectively so they can exercise their free agency to decide whether or not they want to seriously commit themselves to something that is insincere and bogus in it's true origin. Please know that within the Kunlun Community, I have only met sincere, kind individuals. They have been loyal and respectful to Max believing him to be a high level Maoshan Sifu and/or Si-jo which is completely false.

 

I am not concerned with Max being a Mao Shan lineage holder or not. He never claimed to be so.

 

I am concerned with these accusations of him practicing "quakery" to obtain money, fame, and other advantages. You cannot make these claims and declare "I am in no way putting down the Kunlun community." They, after all, practice these "quakeries" you speak of.

 

Because the Maoshan Sifu and Si-jo training is so difficult, we do not pay our Sifu or Si-jo $1000 to be trained in a week so we can become a Maoshan Sifu or Maoshan Si-jo. Even being a Maoshan Instructor is very difficult that one cannot teach Maoshan without permission and only with guidance from a Maoshan Sifu or Si-jo.

 

...

 

I personally asked both Patrick Moon and Andrew Lum for permission to teach before I started any classes. When one of my students had tried to teach Maoshan without permission, Si-jo Patrick Moon went into an attack mode and personally kicked out my former student from instructing, teaching or learning Maoshan.

 

This is irrelevant to the point at hand.

 

Max is correct that learning Maoshan can be very alluring because even with a little knowledge of Maoshan will produce "Maoshan charlatans". "Maoshan charlatans" often possess skills far above the average martial artists "Masters" who have studies for many years in their particular art and field of discipline. Even some of my students have studied under me like Max studied under Andrew Lum then proclaiming themselves to be masters in Maoshan. They conduct classes without permission creating their own mystique to lure in students. Before becoming a Maoshan Sifu, I personally asked both Patrick Moon and Andrew Lum for permission to teach before I started any classes. When one of my students had tried to teach Maoshan without permission, Si-jo Patrick Moon went into an attack mode and personally kicked out my former student from instructing, teaching or learning Maoshan.

 

Again this is irrelevant. Max did not teach as a master of Mao Shan and less as a martial artist. Sifu, these are false accusations that damage your own credibility.

 

But as a Sifu of Mao Shan lineage, I would like to know from you whether the techniques Max has called Mao Shan truly belong to the school.

Edited October 8, 2009 by Lucky7Strikes

[-O-]

 

 

But as a Sifu of Mao Shan lineage, I would like to know from you whether the techniques Max has called Mao Shan truly belong to the school.

 

 

 

I believe I read somewhere that Max consulted his "aunties" in Hong Kong regarding RP - So RP may have nothing to do with Lum's (just a thought).

 

 

 

Sifu Hata, are you in contact with PH Toledo?

 

Honestly your words are always referencing Moon and Lum and at this point any comment you make I find to be incredulous - if Moon or Lum have issue which they would like to raise publically then perhaps they should formally do so.

 

Do you have permission, consent from Lum/Moon to speak on their behalf?

 

Are they wanting you to publically address these things for them - if so be clear - no more allusions?

 

Or do you have another MA demonstration coming up that you would like promoted? Travel deals?... You come of as some one with mixed intention who tries to pretend to be respectful and sincere - but is very obviously hostile and gossip mongering (and very intentionally doing so) - just come out and say what you have to say. Make the accusation you want to make - cause, dude, you are coming acorss as someone with emotional issues, who is too much of a coward to stand in the drama he wants to create. Either start your meds again, or say what it is you want to say with out the politically correct two step. Own it!

[ssttinstitute]

Who you '-O-'? and what relationship do you have to Lum Dai Yun lineage if any?

*SERIOUSLY* What qualifications do you have if any to the Lum Dai Yun lineage?

 

You don't have to answer the questions above: I'm only indicating that you're very disrespectful and arrogant with no sufficient qualifications and/or training background. I've had students like you before with much more qualifications than yourself with your same sarcastic cavalier attitude and washed them out of class the same day

 

Hang loose, Brah! *RESPECTFULLY* Stay in whatever martial arts or meditation/medication discipline(s) you may, may not have or own!

 

*PEACE*

http://www.sstt-institute.org/

[-O-]

 

What qualifications do you have if any to the Lum Dai Yun lineage?

 

 

 

None - that is why your title and claims hold no water with me. I am talking to you as a member of a forum who is just trying to cause shit. Your titles, belts, lineages etc are irrelevant - your words and actions are not. You do not have my respect because, behind your fascade of respectfulness you are being very disrespectful. I would be ashamed to be a student of yours after reading your posts. This is the impact you are having on the reputation of the men you hold in high esteem. You sifu hata are a straw dog.

[Aetherous]

I agree, Sifu Hata, your actions do come off as "shady". And the old saying, "if you point your finger at someone else, 3 others are pointing back at you" totally applies to many of the accusations. For instance, using the Lum/Maoshan name to attract more followers...isn't it you who is doing that here?

 

We should remember that Max is done teaching, and therefore isn't using the names and isn't attracting any more followers.

 

About the Kunlun/Maoshan claims...

 

At one time, someone from the forum (xienkula is I think how you spell their screenname) contacted Sifu Lum about the Red Phoenix practice. Sifu Lum knew it, and said that it was specifically for Max. It was taught from him to Max. This is documented on this forum.

 

So at least personally, that's all the proof I need in order to continue practicing. Besides the fact that it works. If something was simply made up by Max, it wouldn't have any effect, or the effect would just be imagined.

 

That is not the case with RP.

 

I consider all of the rest of this to be "politics". It has its place, and I respect that.

 

Anyway, thanks for the updates on the Maoshan lineage.