Andrew Lum/Patrick Moon contact

[Theladyphoenix]

Dear Sifu Hata,

I respectfully request that you please remove any and all videos from the SSTT website and youtube channel containing my likeness or voice. You may continue to use any videos I have edited for you that do not contain my likeness or voice.

 

I have stayed silent about this controversy on a public level out of respect for our previous friendship, but the escalating negative attention that this thread is receiving as it spreads on the internet is causing me personal discomfort as I do not share your position in the controversy between SSTT and Max Christensen..

 

I do not wish anyone to get the impression that I support SSTT's recent statements concerning Max nor do I wish to give the impression that I presume to speak for anyone in the Lum family lineage other than myself. Since you have chosen to expel me from both your tutelage and SSTT, it is only fitting that you remove my likeness and voice from any materials that you currently use to promote SSTT. At the very least, it will remove any potential confusion for SSTT in the future.

 

As your former student and friend, I humbly request that you grant me this one last favor.

Since I am unable to reach you in any other way, I am forced to put my request on this forum.

 

It is my sincere hope that this disagreement between you and Max be resolved in private in a peaceful manner in order to avoid any further negative attention to the Lum lineage...

 

Thank you for your quick action in this matter,

Your former student and friend,

Michael Denney

 

 

hmmm..... Like a gentleman, peaceful, with respect and dignity for all... without ego... or attachement to one's titles... without jealousy or fear... not immature and self serving or EGO driven.

 

It is really sad and shameful that someone of a teacher, sifu status, Mr. Hata would stoop so low, attempting to harm the reputation of a good man such as Max Christensen who is loved and appreciated by so many people.

 

One can only hope and pray that the appropriate lessons have been learned and all due apologies are made.

 

And as they say, the cream always rises to the top.

[-O-]

 

And as they say, the cream always rises to the top.

 

 

 

 

It is also important to note that even the cream of the crop have acted badly a times. We all have our moments both good and bad.

[Owledge]

It is really sad and shameful that someone of a teacher, sifu status, Mr. Hata would stoop so low, attempting to harm the reputation of a good man such as Max Christensen who is loved and appreciated by so many people.

Sifu means teacher, but we are all teachers and students in various areas.

Sifu is used to express respect, but we should all respect each other.

...

Max doesn't want to be called Sifu.

 

Personality has a multitude of facettes and I'd say is what makes us different on the immaterial plane, so I suspect that even enlightened people who ascend to higher realms of being still have their personality quirks.

 

The "sad and shameful" would perhaps apply more if Mr. Hata was a spiritual teacher instead of a Martial Arts teacher, because it should be obvious that the ego can often be big in Martial Arts, while spirituality deals a lot with the ego-problem.

[-O-]

Sifu means teacher, but we are all teachers and students in various areas.

Sifu is used to express respect, but we should all respect each other.

...

Max doesn't want to be called Sifu.

 

But he has assumed the role and the authority... not wanting to be called this doesn't make the responsibility go away.

 

Part of that responisbility is to have very clearly defined boundaries between "teacher" and "student" with precisely defined expectations and a healthy distance between the two. If these things are not in placed and constructed with comprehensive foresight then situations EXACTLY like what just happened WILL happen.

 

Unfortunatly to do this and assume the responsibility in this way, means sacrificing a certain innocence about human nature and relationship dynamics - one that I think Max is reluctant to do (don't blame'im for that).

 

At the end of the day it is (and should be) a very rare occurance to have a student become a friend and in some fields where there is an inherent inequality of emotional power in the relationship, to be friends with students is an unethical thing to do (as it blurs the lines between the roles and leaves the weaker of the two, the student, vulnerable to great injury). (think of the doctor patient dynamic, therapist/patient relationship)

Edited October 13, 2009 by -O-

[Theladyphoenix]

It is also important to note that even the cream of the crop have acted badly a times. We all have our moments both good and bad.

 

 

And the point here is not whether or not Max wants to be called Sifu or not. What is relevant is that Hata is out of line. As far as the cream rising to the top... Hata is is the one launching attacks with his Verbal arsenal on Max's good nature and character. Not the other way around.

[-O-]

And the point here is not whether or not Max wants to be called Sifu or not. What is relevant is that Hata is out of line. As far as the cream rising to the top... Hata is is the one launching attacks with his Verbal arsenal on Max's good nature and character. Not the other way around.

 

 

 

The point is that there is a flaw in how all of it is all structured which leads to these issues. The issues really are no different than what a franchise or or nation organization with a large distribution chain would expereince if it is not structured properly - and in those cases, those organization do not last... so regardless of this as a "he said she said" arguement - there is the longevity of Kunlun as an organization at stake.

 

 

 

Where will it be after Max is gone - where will it be in 10 years. Will it go the way Theta has, of Malchezidek...

 

 

 

I am trying to bring to light a larger issue which has more to do with the managment on a brand and a service. For example one flaw is the intial promotion of Kunlun based on Max's reputation and acomplishements. This down the line leads to a number of thing - people motivated to come to

 

1) see the amazing teacher

 

2) become like the amazing teacher

 

3) gain abilities like the amazing teacher

 

4) Leaves the organizations reputation vulnerable to the man's reputation (which is what happened here - call Max a fraud will then discredit Kunlun.)

 

 

 

This is just a few examples which all have a myriad of possible negative outcomes.

 

Also you have no real means of action to deal with this nor has there been enough thought into how a situation like this would be handled if it did come up.

 

 

 

Right now the only means of holding facilitators or instructors accountable is to remove them from a list and hope that not being held in good standing will hurt their feelings enough to have them fall in line.

 

 

 

You are blindly walking down the same path to obscurity and eventual failure a many, many very well intentioned "schools" have in the past.

 

 

 

So let me ask you this... how the school is structured now, will it be around in 10 years, 50 years, 200 years? Have you thought of a way of organizing it so that it can be around in 10, 50, 200 years.

 

 

 

Kunlun is essentially a global presence - but is handled in situations like this - like a local, small establishment.

 

 

 

As an organization you have left yourself open to this and many other problems which could also manifest over time. You can take responsibility for this now and ensure the survival of what could be a very important teaching for humanity - or you can be stuborn and lean on the usual PR approach you have in the past

 

 

 

Let me ask you... how much time was spent in fact checking before acting out in rectify in the situation? Do you have a review process in place for, not punishing or controlling your representatives, but in reconcilling all of the information? Could you simplly walk over to a file cabinet - pull out the facilitators signed agreement and say "yes they are not in accordance with this as stated in line..." I bet not.

 

 

 

You have a knowledge base that is wide open to being molested by the egos of others (both internally and externally) - you have a brand which is wide open to being devalued by situations just like this...

 

 

 

The thing to keep in mind is that breakdowns like this are not always so black and white. This one is easy - Hata has fallen off of his rocking chair and is unreaonably & irrationally motivated. But the really sticky situations to work out are when you have good people on both sides of the case, each sincerly doing what they feel is the right thing to do... its just, what is the right thing to do for two parties sometimes is diametrically opposed to the other. And how is that going to be handled - have you already thought of, defined and communicated what is allowable uses of the term "Kunlun nei gung" - (I know you haven't because you haven't registered the trade mark). You are wide open and at risk.

 

 

 

I may put your nose out of joint by pointing this out - and will surely jump on the ad hominem attack - but I am pointing this out, because on some level I do care.

[joeblast]

I see your point, O...but this "community" is not a "school"....

[Theladyphoenix]

I see your point, O...but this "community" is not a "school"....

 

My heart is full of love, appreciation and respect for you, Max Christensen. Thank you for all the wonderful practices you have shared, and through your example, all the positive virtues we have witnessed. Thank you for being who you are.

 

I am called to remember some of the simple yet positive and powerful words I have heard you say over the years:

 

I am no better than you are. You are your own best teacher. Everything you need to know is already inside you. Live your art. Be a good example for others. Have compassion and respect for others. Always smile and remember your childlike nature.

 

Just a few simple yet positive and powerful words. Thank you Max.

[gendao]

Where will it be after Max is gone - where will it be in 10 years. Will it go the way Theta has, of Malchezidek...

 

4) Leaves the organizations reputation vulnerable to the man's reputation (which is what happened here - call Max a fraud will then discredit Kunlun.)

Just a note - ThetaHealing has recently been subjected to some allegations of impropriety or malfunction...however I don't think anything's been proven for a fact. But such things are difficult to prove, so probably only time can tell. And, I am not indicting ThetaHealing or relating Kunlun to it here, just thought it was interesting that they have both been put under some similar scrutiny lately. Like, maybe it's a passing trend? But everyone can decide for themselves whatever they want to believe...

 

I do think that anyone with common sense can tell when some accusations are transparent proxies for less noble, underlying motives, though.

 

Well, I'm still Gold Dragon Body or bust!

 

 

PS - Who cares what Bullshido thinks? Obviously, they are not going to believe in any metaphysical art, with controversies or not..

Edited October 13, 2009 by vortex

[Guest winpro07]

The end result of Kunlun Red Phoenix is ego dissolve and complete independence.

 

to quote max again "it is called the path of no more learning" no more learning implies

 

'no more teaching' Teaching is an act of the ego. 'Becoming' or Being is what happens next

 

Mudras can be shown, but the Experience that is this Art cannot ever be taught.

 

what Max has done is Shared something of the greatest value in the only way that it could have been.

[-O-]

As far as the cream rising to the top... Hata is is the one launching attacks with his Verbal arsenal on Max's good nature and character. Not the other way around.

 

 

 

Let me remind you, as someone who has had to live with some of the consequences of Max's choices. He told an entire "community" he was dead - for whatever rational that lead to this action - it was a lie and had no regard for the people whose "...heart is full of love, appreciation and respect for you, Max Christensen. "

 

 

 

We all have acted badly - and although I point gnarly fingers at people - keep this in mind in regarding Hata - who might be dealing with physical or emotional issues beyond his immediate control.

[Lucky7Strikes]

The end result of Kunlun Red Phoenix is ego dissolve and complete independence.

 

to quote max again "it is called the path of no more learning" no more learning implies

 

'no more teaching' Teaching is an act of the ego. 'Becoming' or Being is what happens next

 

Mudras can be shown, but the Experience that is this Art cannot ever be taught.

 

what Max has done is Shared something of the greatest value in the only way that it could have been.

 

He clarified that statement by saying it was "no more learning" on earth. I'm guessing it means transforming the physical body's state as a "self," therefore beyond earth.

 

Max has stated several times that he is still cultivating, that he too is still learning.

[Owledge]

Teaching is an act of the ego.

Doesn't that depend? Can't it also be an act of compassion? And compassion moves away from ego.

 

Let me remind you, as someone who has had to live with some of the consequences of Max's choices. He told an entire "community" he was dead - for whatever rational that lead to this action - it was a lie and had no regard for the people whose "...heart is full of love, appreciation and respect for you, Max Christensen. "

Had to live with? No regard for the people who love and respect him? Hey, didn't you think that maybe this was totally intentional and exactly something he wanted to teach you? The bad feelings you might have had when you heard of his death are attachments. It was a test, nothing more. Of course it can hurt, but if you still have after-effects about it, then ... well maybe you shouldn't.

And don't say you haven't been warned. Max himself says that he's a coyote (=trickster).

[devi]

Dear Sifu Hata,

 

It has been drawn to my attention that a link to my website is posted on your website. With utmost respect, I would like to request that you please remove this link. I only attended a couple of your classes this summer which I enjoyed very much. I hope you can forgive but, I did not find myself to have the stamina to continue in this true Maoshan Martial Art. Although we discussed at length the possibility of doing a Kunlun class with SSTT, we mutually agreed it would serve the tradition best if they were kept whole and complete on there own merit. Since we never worked together in this manner and decided not to collaborate in the future, I think it would be best not to confuse the two practices by having a Kunlun website link on your site. Also, in light of the recent harsh words against Max Christensen who is my Kunlun teacher and whom I hold in the highest regard, I wish not to be associated with SSTT. I hope that you can come to some peace about Max and see him for the amazing being that he is. He has served many and I am sure would appreciate some rest from all this disturbance. I also hope that you can see his sincerity in respecting the traditions and in passing on the opportunity to share these practices with others. Since some of us are new to teaching, we sometimes become a little to eager, get ahead of ourselves, make mistakes, have misunderstandings, ego etc... This is in no disrespect to the practices nor should it reflect on Max, just sometimes a difficult learning process as you can understand.

 

Wishing you the best,

 

Debbi

Kunlun Facilitator

www.kunlunblissbody.com

[-O-]

Doesn't that depend? Can't it also be an act of compassion? And compassion moves away from ego.

 

 

Had to live with? No regard for the people who love and respect him? Hey, didn't you think that maybe this was totally intentional and exactly something he wanted to teach you? The bad feelings you might have had when you heard of his death are attachments. It was a test, nothing more. Of course it can hurt, but if you still have after-effects about it, then ... well maybe you shouldn't.

And don't say you haven't been warned. Max himself says that he's a coyote (=trickster).

 

 

 

Yes I did consider and contemplate and meditate on it being an intentional lesson - for more years then you have most likely know him. The death had little bad feelings on me - it was emotionally driven actions later that were different. A lesson only... think about what you are saying - it is also a deception and a lie - is this the best example to others. Haven't been warned - I respected every request of Max's without question until he behaved very badly.

 

 

 

As for coyote's... my first and longest teacher was lippen apache. Being a coyote is not an excuse to be flippent in your teachings or the well being of your students. An example of a coyote teachings is... "Elder I want to learn about the owls" - "your not ready for owls, go study the mice" and while you study the mice you learn - indirectly all about the owls behaviour (because the two are intertwined). This trickster mentality from the mountain you are using as an excuse is highly distorted my friend.

 

 

 

Max has said himself, he is not better than you or I. You guys are not defening Max, you are defending an ideal you hold in your minds which he represents. You are limiting yourself - specifically in bringing the insights from your practices to the rest of the ordinary world - where faking deaths, publically airing credibility issues, claiming people are dopplegangers or energetic vampires is considered to be juvenile and irresponsible. Stop making excuses for these people just because they represent something to you. It is not only preventing you from moving into greater awareness and applicable skill - it is also preventing them from doing the same.

 

 

 

There is a serious heuristic issue here, where any thought that runs through the mind is considered to be a spiritual reality and as they progress to teachers themselves the flaws in awareness go unchalleged and even supported by the loyal. All of this has happened before. The teachers intention has shifted from teaching back to the his own evolution and all of this is back in spades. Excuses... nonsense then more excuses... Again the gnarly fingers are an effort to help - your current community hasn't faced this. Face it or make excuses - I will not make excuses for this type of behaviour.

 

 

 

It is not a matter of harbouring bad feeling - forgiving and moving on does not mean ignoring the consequence of the actions taken - or worse yet making excuses for the perpetrators. The actions have had their manifestations - my stance today is one of them - not out of bad feeling but because I have learned from the experience and can now comment with some validity.

[lino]

I am surprised someone of Dr. Hata's level is so skeptical of the Gold Dragon Body state. What is funny is that Max has never mentioned it with any arrogance or to impress people. He has always downplayed it if anything, as it is just a marker along the path, not necessarily the end point (there is life after the GDB).

 

I'm also inclined not to believe in it. For all of the literature and talk in other Esoteric Arts about shape-shifting,

attachments, and hooks.

[Theladyphoenix]

Let me remind you, as someone who has had to live with some of the consequences of Max's choices. He told an entire "community" he was dead - for whatever rational that lead to this action - it was a lie and had no regard for the people whose "...heart is full of love, appreciation and respect for you, Max Christensen. "

 

We all have acted badly - and although I point gnarly fingers at people - keep this in mind in regarding Hata - who might be dealing with physical or emotional issues beyond his immediate control.

 

Dear -O-

 

First of all, I wish you the gift of peace. Also, You must realize this: the words I wrote in my previous post, were spoken from my heart not yours. I do not speak for you, or to you in the previous posting. I was speaking from my heart to Max. Furthermore, I have chosen the path of Love, not Fear, and I am proud that my heart is full of love and appreciation rather than fear and negativity. I do not apologize for this.

 

But what is the purpose here in pointing gnarly fingers ? Only to hurt another? Hasn't there been enough gnarly finger pointing and ill will perpetrated by Mr. Hata on Max without you interjecting more rude commentary? It sounds like you may have been hurt. I am sorry for this. We all know what hurt feels like, I am sure. Apparently, you have spoken your truth, and I hope you feel better for doing so. A wise man once told me, 'If you can feel it... you can heal it." So I tip my hat to you, and say, be healed.

 

In my opinion, Max, at the very least, deserves an apology. The behavior and verbal assaults towards him, especially by someone who doen't even know him, have been way out of control and unwarranted. Good grief.

 

Why don't we try to provide the space for some healing to take place. It's time. It's time to shift this negative and hurtful dynamic and stop the petty mud slinging. I humbly extend love, peace and forgiveness to everyone, including Dr. Hata, who have been affected directly and/or indirectly by this extremely hurtful commentary and thread. Thank you for listening.

 

P.S. Man, at times my life can be so challenging and people so demanding, full of expections, that sometimes I wish I could dissapear for day, never mind a year. Cool Max. Did you really do that? Dude you are my hero- not my Sifu- but my Hero! haha hehe!

Edited October 14, 2009 by Theladyphoenix

[Aetherous]

Again the gnarly fingers are an effort to help - your current community hasn't faced this.

 

I for one would like to face everything, and I appreciate any "gnarly fingers" if they help...but it's unclear to me what the actual issue is. What must I face?

[Guest winpro07]

"on earth" means duality, the mind or achieving non duality. The problems existing at the heart of this thread and on both sides of the argument where duality can be seen at any level individual or communal are of the ego. The Kunlun community cannot be considered a school or any of its participants as teachers. The practices them selves shatter the beliefs that carry fear that supports duality. In non duality there is no resistance born from fear. There is no "I know" or "I don't know" -only experience, as learning for the joy of it. There are those with more experience, but the heart of joy passes these things on freely and any willing to receive transform quickly. This is not teaching. It is sharing. It is sharing because there is no preconception of the dual mind that sees any other as 'not whole' This is the absolute truth and it is a choice for each individual. The choice is presented in all creation constantly throughout life and arrives in many forms -some times in personage -a Bodhisattva.

He clarified that statement by saying it was "no more learning" on earth. I'm guessing it means transforming the physical body's state as a "self," therefore beyond earth.

 

Max has stated several times that he is still cultivating, that he too is still learning.

[-O-]

 

I for one would like to face everything, and I appreciate any "gnarly fingers" if they help...but it's unclear to me what the actual issue is. What must I face?

 

 

 

Think of it this way - when people in these roles act badly - it leaves the rest of the community in a fix. On one hand here is a person of superior skill or achievement, greater than our own, who we look to as an example of what we could be. On the other hand there is behaviour, if executed by anyone else in our lives, would be seen as simply bad behaviour.

 

 

 

It is a tough conflict of information. One where if we accept the former (they are of superior skill or awareness) than how can they behave this way. So we can over look it - ignore it - or paint in the cracks. "He must know something that I don't... there must be something less obvious (or spiritual) going on..." We make excuses for the behaviour to protect what it is they represent to us. This adds more and more tension to the psyche.

 

 

 

An extreme case would be - Teacher has died which evolves into teacher has executed the rainbow light body - to teacher is still around in spirit - to teacher is teaching me and my students in spirit. Then one day teacher shows up alive - and the fragile ideal which has been wrapped up in these thoughts is confronted with the reality that teacher has lied. This becomes too much to handle so more perception is created to cover the even bigger cracks - things like - "my teacher would never lie to me" - to "this can't be my teacher" - to this is an imposter. By doing this the ideal is preserved, and maintains a immedaite presence of the ideal in the persons life (in spirit or other dimensions) But the perception does not integrate all of the information - it ignores the possiblity that teacher is very alive and teacher has lied. So the reality of the teacher and the bad behaviour is pushed out...

 

 

 

So how do good hearted - kind - fairly reasonable people get to this point?

 

 

 

The assumption that teacher is superior in everyway. and teacher could have limitations which are very worldly -meaning they are energetically advanced but perhaps maybe not so good with people, or words, or knowing the impact of words. Well how does this asumption get made in the first place... there is a high focuss on teacher. The word teachings are as much about the teachers life as they are about the practice. This doesn't mean that the person is promoting themselves - they may just want to convey what is possible to you. Or the validity of the practice has is heavily weighed on the accomplishements of the teacher - which is not nessesarily so. An accomplished practictioner might be a crappy teacher and visa versa.

 

 

 

This puts a focus on the person and not the teachings. Then community is built around not only the teachings but the teacher... (one of the most absurd phone calls I recieved was somebody asking if we could get together and chat about teacher... teachings sure but teacher WTF.) The validity of the practice is transferred from the attainments of the teacher - which means an ideal of what can be accomplished is the teacher. Then we have to protect that, or our efforts have been in vain. To be disrespectful - or question - or stand up and say that was bad behaviour means soiling our own efforts and our ideal. So we protect the teacher when common sense and critical thinking would state otherwise - and in a far more damaging way, we protect teacher against what our own awareness tells us. This is important to note - it is against our own awareness. (and you could replace "teacher" with community through any of this).

 

 

 

So say from the current conversation - teacher has enough foresight and wisdom to know that faking a death will result in an appropriate test and lesson for the students - but yet in the situation that has just past he couldn't tell if the student thought to be out of line was even awaren of what was going on.... and yet this doesn't cross anyones mind. Or Hata's behaviour - accusing spiritual attack and taoist sorcery - weighed against what is most likely jeliousy. By painting in these cracks we damage our own awareness. Then eventually a few become teachers and when faced with circumstance they don't enjoy or are at thier limit of stress - they then claim that what is emotionally driven nonsense to be spiritual awareness. And at this point they are beyond reproach from anyone aiding in thier own testing of reality and intigration of ALL the information (including their own emotions). "But of course teacher could never be emotionally driven because they have transcended their ego - it must be spiritual awareness".

 

 

 

Consider that a large part of Hata's motivation is to reinforce his affinity for and association with his "teachers" and that this dynamic is no different than love letters written to your own teacher.

 

 

 

The tao doesn't find balance by holding extremes in each hand (that is duality) - it finds balance by constant transmutation. So one one hand you have a very loving community an on the other hand at the periphery of your community there is all this negativity. We could say - that is the balance of the tao... no that is an excuse to not get your hands dirty. The periphery and the love are the same thing - an effort to hold to love in a constant state and avoid the negative (which keeps it in a constant state). This is protecting the ideal.

 

 

 

Now there is all this talk about respect - hata is not respectful - facillitators must be respectful etc. But when push comes to shove there isn't any respect for the facilitator - there isn't the benefit of the doubt that there is misunderstanding, or that they haven't received email in a while - it is straight to a demand for compliance. This is to jump to a conclusion written in language of drama and propelled froward by emotionally driven impatience to get rid of the negative. And it ignores any past experience with that very real person - which I am assuming from everyone else in your community would be an expereince of love and respect, admiration. Perhaps tao doesn't draw the line and say below here is negative and above here is positive - perhaps it is one energy in different phases of the same process of transmutation. You will never get to a point of mastery with that if you are drawing lines of positive and negative. It is a contridiction of the teaching - or a limitation in its application.

 

 

 

Consider a scenario - a very advanced practioner - who sucks at personal relationships. The relationships are all one sided, superfical (meaning they can't hold up to conflict), based only on their practices & achievements and are highly conditional on being positive only. There is an immediate avoidance and regressive reaction to anything negative regarding personal relationships - how do you think the tao will rectify this? Do you think it would come up through interactions with people? How do you think it would be avoided? Perhaps it will be labeled as powers that be, deamons attacking at the gates.

 

 

 

The issue at hand is these limitations are being past down to the future generation. We meet teacher - gather enough information to emulate teachers - repeat teachers words - and mimick teachers actions. We adopt the same philosophy and then find ourselves in the same situation. Perhaps that is why with in one lineage across a few of the 15+ year practitioners there as been - faked deaths, claims of spiritual attacks, claims of energetic vampirism, claims of dopplegangers and I'm sure more that never bubbles up to the surface.

 

 

 

It is past down through how the teachings are being presented, how the relationships are being formed and it is propegated by our need to protection our ideal. Max has told you - he is no better than you, he is not a teacher... but I am not sure that you really know what that means, at least for some of you. And that goes for many other communities as well. This isn't exclusive to Kunlun.

 

 

 

At every turn there has been an opportunity to transmute these situations to higher states - but what I have seen demonstrated is "stop what you are doing" "I don't care just as long as they stop" "it is just people and their egos" "too much negativity, I'm not going there" "I quite, I retire" "just tell them I am dead" (sorry but it is true). Or when a gnarly finger is raised then it must just be that other person feeling hurt - and saying "hey buddy get over it" from the moral high ground. Or they are just not doing the work - go heal. The healing is in engaging this not trying to stiffle it. Look at how well Mr Demmey is handling this - that is supurb.

 

 

 

Anyway this isn't just for the Kunlun community - although I do appreciate the emails from those of you who are open to what I have been saying today - I was supprised at how many of you there are. It's the only reason why I press on. It really makes no difference to my life - I have more concern and emotional involvement with my emerging bald spots (I use to have great hair). (Winpro- love the sharing definition by the way)

[Theladyphoenix]

Think of it this way - when people in these roles act badly - it leaves the rest of the community in a fix. On one hand here is a person of superior skill or achievement, greater than our own, who we look to as an example of what we could be. On the other hand there is behaviour, if executed by anyone else in our lives, would be seen as simply bad behaviour.

 

 

 

It is a tough conflict of information. One where if we accept the former (they are of superior skill or awareness) than how can they behave this way. So we can over look it - ignore it - or paint in the cracks. "He must know something that I don't... there must be something less obvious (or spiritual) going on..." We make excuses for the behaviour to protect what it is they represent to us. This adds more and more tension to the psyche.

 

 

 

An extreme case would be - Teacher has died which evolves into teacher has executed the rainbow light body - to teacher is still around in spirit - to teacher is teaching me and my students in spirit. Then one day teacher shows up alive - and the fragile ideal which has been wrapped up in these thoughts is confronted with the reality that teacher has lied. This becomes too much to handle so more perception is created to cover the even bigger cracks - things like - "my teacher would never lie to me" - to "this can't be my teacher" - to this is an imposter. By doing this the ideal is preserved, and maintains a immedaite presence of the ideal in the persons life (in spirit or other dimensions) But the perception does not integrate all of the information - it ignores the possiblity that teacher is very alive and teacher has lied. So the reality of the teacher and the bad behaviour is pushed out...

 

 

 

So how do good hearted - kind - fairly reasonable people get to this point?

 

 

 

The assumption that teacher is superior in everyway. and teacher could have limitations which are very worldly -meaning they are energetically advanced but perhaps maybe not so good with people, or words, or knowing the impact of words. Well how does this asumption get made in the first place... there is a high focuss on teacher. The word teachings are as much about the teachers life as they are about the practice. This doesn't mean that the person is promoting themselves - they may just want to convey what is possible to you. Or the validity of the practice has is heavily weighed on the accomplishements of the teacher - which is not nessesarily so. An accomplished practictioner might be a crappy teacher and visa versa.

 

 

 

This puts a focus on the person and not the teachings. Then community is built around not only the teachings but the teacher... (one of the most absurd phone calls I recieved was somebody asking if we could get together and chat about teacher... teachings sure but teacher WTF.) The validity of the practice is transferred from the attainments of the teacher - which means an ideal of what can be accomplished is the teacher. Then we have to protect that, or our efforts have been in vain. To be disrespectful - or question - or stand up and say that was bad behaviour means soiling our own efforts and our ideal. So we protect the teacher when common sense and critical thinking would state otherwise - and in a far more damaging way, we protect teacher against what our own awareness tells us. This is important to note - it is against our own awareness. (and you could replace "teacher" with community through any of this).

 

 

 

So say from the current conversation - teacher has enough foresight and wisdom to know that faking a death will result in an appropriate test and lesson for the students - but yet in the situation that has just past he couldn't tell if the student thought to be out of line was even awaren of what was going on.... and yet this doesn't cross anyones mind. Or Hata's behaviour - accusing spiritual attack and taoist sorcery - weighed against what is most likely jeliousy. By painting in these cracks we damage our own awareness. Then eventually a few become teachers and when faced with circumstance they don't enjoy or are at thier limit of stress - they then claim that what is emotionally driven nonsense to be spiritual awareness. And at this point they are beyond reproach from anyone aiding in thier own testing of reality and intigration of ALL the information (including their own emotions). "But of course teacher could never be emotionally driven because they have transcended their ego - it must be spiritual awareness".

 

 

 

Consider that a large part of Hata's motivation is to reinforce his affinity for and association with his "teachers" and that this dynamic is no different than love letters written to your own teacher.

 

 

 

The tao doesn't find balance by holding extremes in each hand (that is duality) - it finds balance by constant transmutation. So one one hand you have a very loving community an on the other hand at the periphery of your community there is all this negativity. We could say - that is the balance of the tao... no that is an excuse to not get your hands dirty. The periphery and the love are the same thing - an effort to hold to love in a constant state and avoid the negative (which keeps it in a constant state). This is protecting the ideal.

 

 

 

Now there is all this talk about respect - hata is not respectful - facillitators must be respectful etc. But when push comes to shove there isn't any respect for the facilitator - there isn't the benefit of the doubt that there is misunderstanding, or that they haven't received email in a while - it is straight to a demand for compliance. This is to jump to a conclusion written in language of drama and propelled froward by emotionally driven impatience to get rid of the negative. And it ignores any past experience with that very real person - which I am assuming from everyone else in your community would be an expereince of love and respect, admiration. Perhaps tao doesn't draw the line and say below here is negative and above here is positive - perhaps it is one energy in different phases of the same process of transmutation. You will never get to a point of mastery with that if you are drawing lines of positive and negative. It is a contridiction of the teaching - or a limitation in its application.

 

 

 

Consider a scenario - a very advanced practioner - who sucks at personal relationships. The relationships are all one sided, superfical (meaning they can't hold up to conflict), based only on their practices & achievements and are highly conditional on being positive only. There is an immediate avoidance and regressive reaction to anything negative regarding personal relationships - how do you think the tao will rectify this? Do you think it would come up through interactions with people? How do you think it would be avoided? Perhaps it will be labeled as powers that be, deamons attacking at the gates.

 

 

 

The issue at hand is these limitations are being past down to the future generation. We meet teacher - gather enough information to emulate teachers - repeat teachers words - and mimick teachers actions. We adopt the same philosophy and then find ourselves in the same situation. Perhaps that is why with in one lineage across a few of the 15+ year practitioners there as been - faked deaths, claims of spiritual attacks, claims of energetic vampirism, claims of dopplegangers and I'm sure more that never bubbles up to the surface.

 

 

 

It is past down through how the teachings are being presented, how the relationships are being formed and it is propegated by our need to protection our ideal. Max has told you - he is no better than you, he is not a teacher... but I am not sure that you really know what that means, at least for some of you. And that goes for many other communities as well. This isn't exclusive to Kunlun.

 

 

 

At every turn there has been an opportunity to transmute these situations to higher states - but what I have seen demonstrated is "stop what you are doing" "I don't care just as long as they stop" "it is just people and their egos" "too much negativity, I'm not going there" "I quite, I retire" "just tell them I am dead" (sorry but it is true). Or when a gnarly finger is raised then it must just be that other person feeling hurt - and saying "hey buddy get over it" from the moral high ground. Or they are just not doing the work - go heal. The healing is in engaging this not trying to stiffle it. Look at how well Mr Demmey is handling this - that is supurb.

 

 

 

Anyway this isn't just for the Kunlun community - although I do appreciate the emails from those of you who are open to what I have been saying today - I was supprised at how many of you there are. It's the only reason why I press on. It really makes no difference to my life - I have more concern and emotional involvement with my emerging bald spots (I use to have great hair). (Winpro- love the sharing definition by the way)

 

 

It's just not that complicated!!!!!!!!! Really, it's not! The judgemental and accusatory remarks are what is offensive and constitute the HUGE turnoff here. God Bless us all.

 

-O- , you participate in both the TTB forum (and frequently on this thread), as well as the Invitation only Kunlun forum, so please .... it really does seem to make a 'difference in your life.' It seems that you have endured painful experiences and I am sorry for this. I wish you the best in healing this pain and suffering you have endured. If you have such a problem with Max, then why do you visit the Kunlun forum??? It clearly doesn't work for you.

 

P.S. Good luck with your baldspots. And 'Press on' as you see fit. LOVE, LOVE, LOVE... always.

[-O-]

 

 

It's just not that complicated!!!!!!!!! Really, it's not! The judgemental and accusatory remarks are what is offensive and constitute the HUGE turnoff here. God Bless us all.

 

-O- , you participate in both the TTB forum (and frequently on this thread), as well as the Invitation only Kunlun forum, so please .... it really does seem to make a 'difference in your life.' It seems that you have endured painful experiences and I am sorry for this. I wish you the best in healing this pain and suffering you have endured. If you have such a problem with Max, then why do you visit the Kunlun forum??? It clearly doesn't work for you.

 

P.S. Good luck with your baldspots. And 'Press on' as you see fit. LOVE, LOVE, LOVE... always.

 

 

 

I don't have a problem with Max. Things are not so black and white. Is it so hard to believe that one can have critical insight without it being born of negative intention? As for love and best wishes - I don't believe you.

[Theladyphoenix]

I don't have a problem with Max. Things are not so black and white. Is it so hard to believe that one can have critical insight without it being born of negative intention? As for love and best wishes - I don't believe you.

 

Okay -O-

 

Best wishes anyway

Edited October 14, 2009 by Theladyphoenix

[freeform]

The issue at hand is these limitations are being past down to the future generation. We meet teacher - gather enough information to emulate teachers - repeat teachers words - and mimick teachers actions. We adopt the same philosophy and then find ourselves in the same situation.

 

-O-

 

I know this is a caricature created for the sake of demonstrating your point of view. But let's be honest here - you're painting these caricatures with broad strokes of your brush, and you're certainly just as guilty of filling in the cracks to suit your purpose.

 

I for one don't see unbalanced negativity in your posts - all your negativity is balanced up with the loving and positive intent of truly attempting to help and be of service.

 

I understand very clearly what you mean about creating an idealised notion of a teacher... it's nothing new - we did it with parents and teachers, and we do it with others who touch our hearts deeply... We do it with practices even - I've seen people so fixated on opening their microcosmic orbit that over months they create a perfect functioning orbit in their imagination. We've seen couples excusing the others faults, even violence for the sake of peace... We've seen people ruled by anger and rage, but develop an incredible avoidance system that allows them to never, ever notice anger inside...

 

What I'm trying to say is that first and foremost we are people... not 'kunlun practitioners'.

 

And as people we have our own strengths and weaknesses.

 

I for one have a distaste for 'no negativity' type thinking, a distaste for supernatural explanations taken out of context, a distaste for idealising someone to the point of losing touch with what's really there.

 

I think it's naive of you to think that we all follow the caricature you have in mind for us 'kunlun practitioners'.

 

As 'humans first' we take from Max and the teachings what we take from anything in life. Where a lot of individuals seem to go for the 'no negativity' angle, I took from Max a non-duality angle - where negativity and positivity give life to a greater whole... Where some take 'supernatural celestial beings helping me evolve' seriously I heard the light hearted laugh that came from Max at the mention of such things... 'Smile and have a child-like attitude' was very loud and clear for me.

 

Your posts say a lot about you, -O-

 

I feel the the 'idealist' in you clearly. And also the 'what's wrong in this situation' flavour to your awareness. And of course the seriousness! And the 'global' nature of your thoughts. I would not expect your reply to me or anyone else to address us on a personal level, but always on a collective level... I'm sure you make a great leader... You need an apology to be able to truly forgive.

 

This is to show that how you process the teacher and the teaching is different to others... and others process differently to you... I have a very under-developed 'what's wrong in this situation' filter - so I trust you with that, but please trust me with what my strength is, and please trust others with what their strengths are...

 

This is what's right with this situation.

[-O-]

_/\_