Meditation

[JustARandomPanda]

I'm having zero luck with Vipassana meditation. I have been trying for close to 2.5 - 3 months now with zero improvement. Is there any meditation technique available that gives the same results as Vipassana but doesn't rely on focusing on breath?

Edited August 31, 2009 by SereneBlue

[Vajrahridaya]

I having zero luck with Vipassana meditation. I have been trying for close to 2.5 - 3 months now with zero improvement. Is there any meditation technique available that gives the same results as Vipassana but doesn't rely on focusing on breath?

 

Vipassana doesn't just focus on the breath, you can focus on any sensation in a meditative way with vipassana, but try samatha. Which is just calm abiding with your eyes half open or completely closed. Half opened effects the heart chakra in a certain way though, as in keeps it integrated with the world around you instead of completely internalizing the heart energy. But, one can cultivate using both at different times. Then you can focus on the space in between breaths is very good, if you just focusing on the breath. I found that if you pay particular attention to the point when the in breath is merging within before it goes out, that there is a deep inner space that one can just align one's attention with and get that meditative calm and peace of mind. Some people find it easier to focus on the space outside when the breath is merging outside and just before it comes in, there is that still open space that one can rest one's attention in, and then as the breath actually flow's, then one can just integrate that space peace feeling with the flow of the breath.

 

I don't know, give it a try. There are tons of methods, you can do an online search if you want.

 

One generally doesn't get good vipassana until one is stabilized in Samatha. Which is what it sounds like your doing. Vipassana is more of a state of contemplation utilizing dependent origination. It sounds like your just doing breath samatha, or calm abiding, but not getting progress because you might not be doing the focus on the space between breaths. Which is what most teachers talk about.

Edited August 31, 2009 by Vajrahridaya

[JustARandomPanda]

I thought Vipassana was a concentration meditation. Thought I'd read somewhere that it was. A guy who talked to me at a bookstore said I need to practice it and recommended it as my first meditation exercise to learn.

 

I found that if you pay particular attention to the point when the in breath is merging within before it goes out, that there is a deep inner space that one can just align one's attention with and get that meditative calm and peace of mind.

Do you mean focus on the air passing at the tips of my nostrils and see if I can detect when the air doesn't exist as it's passing through? I am confused. That's what I've been trying to do but failing miserably at it. I haven't yet after 2.5 - 3 months been able to detect any kind of gap between breaths. And my eyes want to roll down and focus on my nostrils so I typically end up with a headache. This despite repeatedly stopping to consciously relax and unfocus my eyes.

 

Everyone I've talked to and everywhere I read online all say Concentration meditation on breath must be first then go to Insight meditation on breath. They also imply unless you learn to do these two breath meditations you will never achieve Enlightenment no matter what else you may do.

 

 

I am confused...and more than a little bummed out if that's true.

 

[Sunya]

I thought Vipassana was a concentration meditation. Thought I'd read somewhere that it was. A guy who talked to me at a bookstore said I need to practice it and recommended it as my first meditation exercise to learn.

Do you mean focus on the air passing at the tips of my nostrils and see if I can detect when the air doesn't exist as it's passing through? I am confused. That's what I've been trying to do but failing miserably at it. I haven't yet after 2.5 - 3 months been able to detect any kind of gap between breaths. And my eyes want to roll down and focus on my nostrils so I typically end up with a headache. This despite repeatedly stopping to consciously relax and unfocus my eyes.

 

Everyone I've talked to and everywhere I read online all say Concentration meditation on breath must be first then go to Insight meditation on breath. They also imply unless you learn to do these two breath meditations you will never achieve Enlightenment no matter what else you may do.

I am confused...and more than a little bummed out if that's true.

 

 

 

hey Serene. check this out for some really good instructions on Vipassana (also called Insight) maybe you got some shady instructions.

 

http://www.interactivebuddha.com/mctb.shtml at the bottom. at the top is his book.. also really recommended. I suggest you give it a read! he's a very accomplished meditater with high realizations

 

if after a month of doing that you still don't get good results... then you should seek out a good teacher in your area. all Buddhist traditions teach some sort of Vipassana and maybe the teacher can give you advice about what other practice might be best for you.

 

Daniel Ingram, the guy whos site I just gave, recommended some Jhana practice before you do Insight. the Tibetans also recommend that, though they call Jhana practice Shamata. it's concentration. I too had issues with vipassana so i'm working on shamata, breath also didn't work for me too well... what helped me was external fixation. you do that by focusing on an external object such as a Tibetan A (the Tibetan recommendation) or a candle, or draw a dot. just focus on something with your eyes and relax the eyes by keep all your focus on that object. make sure the posture is correct, tongue is loosely on the roof of the mouth, chin is tucked in, head is up and tucked slightly down, and back is straight. like you're hanging from a thread from the crown of your head. you should be comfortable but not totally relaxed. the body will breath by itself, make sure the belly is soft and relaxed.

 

I think this might really help you because your eyes 'want to roll down' so you will learn how to focus them and relax them. Also, you might have too much energy in your head ( i know you're the philosophical type like me) so as a preliminary to meditation, you can do some alternate nostril deep breathing into the belly, and focus on the lower dan tien with soft breaths to get out of the mind a bit.

 

I hope this helps.. meditating is not easy.

[Vajrahridaya]

I thought Vipassana was a concentration meditation. Thought I'd read somewhere that it was. A guy who talked to me at a bookstore said I need to practice it and recommended it as my first meditation exercise to learn.

 

 

No, that's samatha, or jhana... stages of samadhi. You can do samatha by focusing on the tip of a candle flame with eyes half open, or a yantra, an image of spiritual geometry.

 

or...

 

 

 

Do you mean focus on the air passing at the tips of my nostrils and see if I can detect when the air doesn't exist as it's passing through? I am confused. That's what I've been trying to do but failing miserably at it. I haven't yet after 2.5 - 3 months been able to detect any kind of gap between breaths. And my eyes want to roll down and focus on my nostrils so I typically end up with a headache. This despite repeatedly stopping to consciously relax and unfocus my eyes.

 

Everyone I've talked to and everywhere I read online all say Concentration meditation on breath must be first then go to Insight meditation on breath. They also imply unless you learn to do these two breath meditations you will never achieve Enlightenment no matter what else you may do.

I am confused...and more than a little bummed out if that's true.

 

 

 

Your breath should merge more in your belly or central chest area, then it kind of just opens up throughout the entire body. That space where it merges within, just before it goes out, from within the body, not within the nose.

 

Concentration meditation is samatha, and insight meditation is vipassana. Whoever you talked to at the bookstore didn't understand so well it seems. You should get out of the house and go to a meditation place where people get together and meditate. If there's any of that around you?

Edited August 31, 2009 by Vajrahridaya

[Mal]

Don't be too focused on getting "anywhere" because we are already "there". It's the focus of the mind and awareness of what is happening now that is most important.

 

Breath awareness is an important tool and you will learn that through KAP

 

interesting discussion on why you need someone to teach this rather than learning yourself

http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?showtopic=10687

 

More recommendations for books and a online courses (I love old threads )

http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?showtopic=984

 

Personally ANY meditation is "better" than an awesome system that you can't seem to practice or just doesn't resonate with you. There are just so many methods. I say start with something you enjoy in mind and body, practice should be something to look forward to.

 

I couldn't get past 20 min in seated meditation for a long time, and even then it was much better when practicing with others (local Buddhists) then I did kunlun and that helped me break that 20 min barrier. I did anapana and 9 bottle for a month or so between kunlun and starting KAP. My Sifu has always preferred Tai Chi to any stillness meditation. I'm getting a LOT out of corpse pose at the end of yoga with my current teacher. And of course I have a plethora of meditation techniques that I use from KAP.

 

Except for Kunlun (and I got help from Chris so perhaps not even that) Everything "good" was taught to me by someone.

[Vajrahridaya]

 

Daniel Ingram, the guy whos site I just gave, recommended some Jhana practice before you do Insight. the Tibetans also recommend that, though they call Jhana practice Shamata. it's concentration. I too had issues with vipassana so i'm working on shamata, breath also didn't work for me too well... what helped me was external fixation. you do that by focusing on an external object such as a Tibetan A (the Tibetan recommendation) or a candle, or draw a dot. just focus on something with your eyes and relax the eyes by keep all your focus on that object. make sure the posture is correct, tongue is loosely on the roof of the mouth, chin is tucked in, head is up and tucked slightly down, and back is straight. like you're hanging from a thread from the crown of your head. you should be comfortable but not totally relaxed. the body will breath by itself, make sure the belly is soft and relaxed.

 

 

Serene...

 

Yes, that's right what Michaelz said above.

 

Plus... some hatha yoga would help to do before meditation. Or just some mild pranayama.

...

Do what the half naked guy is doing starting at 1 minute and 5 seconds. But, do it starting with the opposite arm, breathing in as the arm goes up, blocking that side of the nose and breathing slowly out as the arm goes back down, and then the other one, back and forth for 6 times, 3 times each side, then bending over with the breath coming in before you put your head to the ground 3 times and you have the 9 purification breaths that always calms and centers me. Men start with the right arm and women start with the left arm with the left leg over the right leg.

Edited August 31, 2009 by Vajrahridaya

[JustARandomPanda]

Thank you everyone. After reading the replies it appears I had big misconceptions about what vipassana and concentration meditations are.

 

I have a totally unrelated question though.

 

Tonight after running MCO I decided to try focusing on my breath at the point in my belly (since KAP teaches belly breathing). For some odd ball reason my body started doing this um...weird dance.

 

The dance looked like some paintings I've seen of a Hindu goddess (have no clue which one) where she puts her hands together like she's praying and her hands and head shift from side to side (prayer hands always moving opposite of the head). Side to side always switching. Head to the left, prayer hands to the right. Prayer hands to the left, head shifts to the right. Back and forth, back and forth. This went on I'd say about 5 minutes.

 

What gives with all this Hindu stuff? I'm not even a Hindu!

 

It also started doing front to back undulations as if I were a snake or porpoise. That went on for another 5. And I wasn't doing any of it. It's as if my body had taken over and decided it was gonna do this stuff whether I wanted to or not.

 

Does anyone know what these kriyas mean? Is there any meaning to them in Buddhism, Taoism, Tantra or whatnot? Or is it just a case of my body charged up with excess energy and how it dissipates it doesn't matter?

[Vajrahridaya]

 

What gives with all this Hindu stuff? I'm not even a Hindu!

 

 

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Serene,

 

Mudras aren't Hindu, they are just energy movements through your nadi's to expel things. Don't take them too seriously. Rejoice that something's happening in a good manor, but your mind is just being purified, that's all.

 

These things Chinese do, Buddhists do... it's just popularized in Hindu culture, that's all.

Edited August 31, 2009 by Vajrahridaya

[Sunya]

hey Serene what's going on inside while the body is doin' stuff? what do you feel? what do you see? where are you?

[Gerard]

I'm having zero luck with Vipassana meditation. I have been trying for close to 2.5 - 3 months now with zero improvement. Is there any meditation technique available that gives the same results as Vipassana but doesn't rely on focusing on breath?

 

I can guarantee you that practicing alone is a recipe for disaster IF YOU ARE A BEGINNER.

 

Better practice Vipassana in a retreat environment. They guide you, teach you, supervise you and you'll be detached from worldy issues plus the benefits from the energy generated by hundreds of monks meditating as well the the lingering Qi in the environment which has been created for a very long time.

 

Thailand is a good country to go to because they mix combine standing, sitting and prostration.

 

Burma is not because they follow Goenka's system which is only sitting. Qi stagnation will follow suit in this system. Very freaking bad.

[Edward M]

http://www.budsas.org/ebud/vipass/vcourse0.htm

 

this link has a set of talks given over a few days at a vipassana meditation retreat--explains it very well in detail both sitting and walking!

 

go back to this section: http://www.budsas.org/ebud/ebidx.htm for a load of articles/talks on everything to do with buddhist meditation..

 

peace

Ed

[Mal]

Does anyone know what these kriyas mean? Is there any meaning to them in Buddhism, Taoism, Tantra or whatnot? Or is it just a case of my body charged up with excess energy and how it dissipates it doesn't matter?

 

It's all good, don't think too much, smile

 

i.e. What happened has already happened, what you felt while it was happening was important then. Trying to understand it now with the mind and remember, interpret or replay what happened is so much less important (although sometimes a fun way to spend the time)

 

What if it was a bad sign? Does that change how you feel now. Does it change what you experienced?

What if it was a good sign? How does that change how you feel now. Did it change what you experienced?

 

[Guest sykkelpump]

I'm having zero luck with Vipassana meditation. I have been trying for close to 2.5 - 3 months now with zero improvement. Is there any meditation technique available that gives the same results as Vipassana but doesn't rely on focusing on breath?

 

 

I think you are confusing anapanasati and vipassana.I personally dont like focusing on sensations in the body.the whole point of meditation is to let go of the body sensations and thoughts so you can go into emptiness.only way I have managed to do this is with the white skeleton meditation.But I have also gone very deep with anapanasati.Mantra is maybe the easiest meditation to do.It is difficult to do wrong.You just keep repeating the mantra until thoughts slow down..But I feelt it occupied the mind to much have to reapeat the mantra over and over again and beacause of that I had less success with it than the other meditations.Remember the goal of every meditation is to slow down your thoughts.and get and empty mind.

In anapanasati (breathing meditation) it is importent to understand that you do not follow the breath(That is Chi kung,and usually a waste of time),you do not follow any sensations.you are simply observing the breath.If it is a long breath ,a short breath or a pause between you are simply observing it.when you do it this way you will soon breath deeper and more realaxed.because you are not regulating your breath.when breaths slow down mind follow.so when you focus on the breath your thougts slow down,but also your breath slow down(and the mind follows).So actually you are attacking the mind from two angels in this meditation.that is why I think it is so effective.And It is also considered by many to be the simplest,safest and best meditation.A meditation which can take you all the way

[Guest sykkelpump]

The best anapanasati instruction i have found:

 

http://www.sinc.sunysb.edu/Clubs/buddhism/...ramsi/main.html

[gendao]

I can guarantee you that practicing alone is a recipe for disaster IF YOU ARE A BEGINNER.

Yea, I'm a big believer in formal instruction - to get you off on the right foot, or to help you jump up to the next level. If you've already practiced some on your own and still feel frustrated, now might be a good time to take a workshop. Spend some money...but save a hella lottttaaaa time!

 

Looking back now, there is no way in HELL I woulda got as far as I am now without all the workshops I took over the past 1.5 years. I had a lot of openings, awakenings, connecting, learned techniques, detoxing, cleared blockages, etc etc...that I otherwise wouldn't have figured out and gotten merely on my own. Just no way.

Edited August 31, 2009 by vortex

[xabir2005]

I'm having zero luck with Vipassana meditation. I have been trying for close to 2.5 - 3 months now with zero improvement. Is there any meditation technique available that gives the same results as Vipassana but doesn't rely on focusing on breath?

How long do you sit each time? Do you focus on something static or do you just observe the dynamic flow of sensations (hotness/coolness, hardness/softness, etc) of the air in the nostrils?

[Lucky7Strikes]

I can guarantee you that practicing alone is a recipe for disaster IF YOU ARE A BEGINNER.

 

Better practice Vipassana in a retreat environment. They guide you, teach you, supervise you and you'll be detached from worldy issues plus the benefits from the energy generated by hundreds of monks meditating as well the the lingering Qi in the environment which has been created for a very long time.

 

BLAH!

 

You exaggerate!

 

Edited September 1, 2009 by Lucky7Strikes

[Prince hisoka]

Hi Serene blue. Look there is lots of other meditation techniques which you can do, although following the breath is probably the most simple and perhaps the easiest.

The other meditation techniques that i am talking about are: http://www.meditationexpert.com/meditation...iques/index.htm . Seriously Bodri wants the best for us, and he knows what's he talking about.

Anyways as i mentioned that Anapana (following the breath) is an efficient and easy practice, here is a couple of links for more clarification on this technique;

 

This one is found on the Meditationexpert http://www.meditationexpert.com/meditation..._pranayama.html

 

And this link is for the Damo Zen Anapanasti sutra http://www.sinc.sunysb.edu/clubs/buddhism/...2.html#striving I know it's lots of reading, but the thing is Sakayumini Buddha is describing the technique for you, and it's actually very logical and simple.

 

For me i took infact more than 2 months to get into the right rytheme of this meditation. All i can say is keep up with it, it takes time.

 

Hope this helps

 

Peace

[Ya Mu]

I'm having zero luck with Vipassana meditation. I have been trying for close to 2.5 - 3 months now with zero improvement. Is there any meditation technique available that gives the same results as Vipassana but doesn't rely on focusing on breath?

Stillness-Movement internal qigong is a meditative style that does not rely on breath. It would be very difficult to practice this 3 months without noticing anything. Most notice changes in the first day.

[markern]

You could use the hamso/soham mantra along with the breath it should make things more easy and powerfull. I think someone on the forum here uses it or has used it and can teach you.

[Guest sykkelpump]

You could use the hamso/soham mantra along with the breath it should make things more easy and powerfull. I think someone on the forum here uses it or has used it and can teach you.

 

You dont practice it?

How can you say it will makes thing more easy and powerfull if you dont practice it?

I have tried it,did not find it to be better,but things like this is indiviual

[markern]

You dont practice it?

How can you say it will makes thing more easy and powerfull if you dont practice it?

I have tried it,did not find it to be better,but things like this is indiviual

 

Because for most people that is the effect it has. That is according to text and the contemporary experience of a huge amount of people. Of course people vary, but this is the likely effect.

[JustARandomPanda]

You could use the hamso/soham mantra along with the breath it should make things more easy and powerfull.

 

What is hamso/soham?

[markern]

What is hamso/soham?

 

Ham and so are the sounds your breath makes if you quit the mind and listen to the breath. That is why it is a particulary good breath mantra and a "universal" mantra. You can read a lot about it online. There are a few different ways of using it as I understand so do a bit of research before choosing method.

 

http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic.asp?TOP...archTerms=soham