Marblehead Posted August 31, 2009 Let's discuss. Â That's a go for me. (I finished editing the copy I now have on my computer.) Personally, I would like to see a discussion of each of the articles to determine if and how they might be applied in our every-day life and especially with our interaction with others. What do you think? Â Happy Trails! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mal Posted August 31, 2009 err. ok I have this one Ancient Bing-fa: Martial Arts Strategy  I read it now and then. Art of War is a very good book and this is not a bad version IMHO. If there is an online one perhaps a book club study could be fun? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted August 31, 2009 err. ok I have this one Ancient Bing-fa: Martial Arts Strategy  I read it now and then. Art of War is a very good book and this is not a bad version IMHO. If there is a n only one perhaps a book club study could be fun?   May I suggest that we all use this one:  http://suntzusaid.com/book/1  as a common reference regardless of what supplimental works we use so that we all are talking about the same passage?  Happy Trails! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted August 31, 2009 What? Do I have a bunch of pacifists amongst me and noone wants to start a war? Â Well, I will start it. Defend yourselves!!! Â "The Art Of War" by Sun Tzu. Â Chapter 1. Â 1. Sun Tzu said: The art of war is of vital importance to the State. Â 2. It is a matter of life and death, a road either to safety or to ruin. Hence it is a subject of inquiry which can on no account be neglected. Â Well, I suggest that if anything is a matter of life and death it is worth giving a little attention to regardless of the present conditions. Â I would also suggest that if anything is of vital importance to the state that same thing is of vital importance to each individual that is a member of the state. Â So. Shall we inquire upon this subject? Â Happy Trails! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ralis Posted August 31, 2009 I have been out all day and have not had time to participate. Starting reading Cleary's work yesterday and am strategizing as to how I will use it everyday. Â I have been a poker player for years and I think this will help me win more money. More later. Â Â ralis Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted August 31, 2009 I have been a poker player for years and I think this will help me win more money. Â I think that is a valid thought. Â Happy Trails! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Machin Shin Posted September 1, 2009 A...A... Â How to use the 100 families; When the General is in the field and has the favour of the 100 families his might is greater than that of the emperor. When the state is at war and the General of the five armies is in the field, He has the mandate of heaven. Â I suggest that the mandate of heaven is stronger in the 100 Families than in either the Emperor or the General. Â From the Kun lun forum they have a technique for dealing with a "Mind Gone Madness General" in their red dragon nei gung. Mind Gone Madness General is a poor translation of the archetype of a military leader that is intent of wholesale destruction of a region. Â More on this later. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted September 1, 2009 Â I suggest that the mandate of heaven is stronger in the 100 Families than in either the Emperor or the General. Â Â I will agree with this. I think it can be said that this is the primary reason the United States lost its war in Vietnam. Â I saw a documentary recently that detailed how closely the North Vietmanese fought their war according to the guidance of "The Art Of War". Â Happy Trails! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ralis Posted September 1, 2009 Please explain the symbolism of the "100 Families".  Thanks  ralis Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted September 1, 2009 Hi Ralis, Â I have noted your post. I will allow time for Machin Shin to respond before saying anything. Â Happy Trails! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Machin Shin Posted September 1, 2009 The 100 families is from another ching (classic). I think it's Tai Kung's six secret teachings the book is one of Thomas Cleary's translations and has six different ching's in it. But essentially they would be the wealthy families that provide supplies to the government to keep the military moving. As times have changed the problems that these 100 families face have changed as well. The succesful government is comprised of families that are socially active and have wealth. Â Simply stated the military needs support and the role of the government is to provide support for the military. Â Recently I've had to study the Qing empire from rise to fall. There are some real lessons to understand about how a nation responds to acts of war and the eastern empires provide large scale examples. And the politics of Buddhism are recorded in the east as well. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted September 1, 2009 Hi Machin Shin, Â Nice explanation. Â I would also like to add that it is used as a general term as well. The 100 families (people in general) in the area where wars are being fought play an important part as well. They can be very helpful by providing supplies to the army they are in favor of or they can be a hinderance by denying supplies and spying on the army they do not favor. Â That was one of the probelms the United States had in Vietnam and more recently in Iraq. The Americans did not, in the most part, win over the people in areas where they were fighting. Â Happy Trails! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted September 2, 2009 Okay. So moving right along:  Chapter 1 Laying Plans  4 These are: (1) The Moral Law; (2) Heaven; (3) Earth; (4) The Commander; (5) Method and discipline.  5,6 The MORAL LAW causes the people to be in complete accord with their ruler, so that they will follow him regardless of their lives, undismayed by any danger.  7 HEAVEN signifies night and day, cold and heat, times and seasons.  8 EARTH comprises distances, great and small; danger and security; open ground and narrow passes; the chances of life and death.  9 The COMMANDER stands for the virtues of wisdom, sincerity, benevolence, courage and strictness.  10 By METHOD AND DISCIPLINE are to be understood the marshaling of the army in its proper subdivisions, the graduations of rank among the officers, the maintenance of roads by which supplies may reach the army, and the control of military expenditure.  So how can we apply these articles to our every-day life? And what do they actually mean?  Happy Trails! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Machin Shin Posted September 2, 2009 Whoah! I know that white horses still have the right of way in the Imperial city and the 100 families have yet to give their approval to the Huang Di. It's only after the rights have been followed that the five armies shall be sent to the field. If the rights have not been followed then we'll have to rely upon whats proper. And properly speaking we haven't even come up with a list of the 100 families. Â If the General thinks that he can take control of the five armies with out fulfilling the rites then the mandate of heaven will remain in the court of The Jade Emporer. Â BTW I'm wearing a hat with a dragon on it.(neo confucianism and very mysterious) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted September 2, 2009 BTW I'm wearing a hat with a dragon on it.(neo confucianism and very mysterious) Â Hehehe. Okay. Go ahead on. It's just that I'm not into that stuff so I won't be any help in the discussion. So go ahead and get the rites out of the way so we can start preparing for war. Â Happy Trails! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Machin Shin Posted September 3, 2009 When a list of the 100 families is presented and a representative of each family has visited the Imperial city then preparations can start. After the Emperor has spoken with the representative of each family the state shall proceed with collecting the monies for support of the five armies. Once the collections are complete then the five armies shall be assembled with troops being draw from the counties closest to the territory in conflict. Â If it is not harvest season then the military officer in charge of collecting troops shall enlist all able body men. If it is harvest season then the military officer in charge shall leave a small detail to collect harvest. Â Such is the mandate of Heaven. Â (This can get really complex and usually involved several disputes between the Buddhist and the Confucians. Meanwhile some sneaky Tao shih would be hanging out with the Empress talking about his elixirs and using his Nei-gong postures...the quick quick path) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted September 3, 2009 (edited) So do we now have the mandate of heaven? May we begin laying plans and assembling our armies now. Â Happy Trails! Edited September 3, 2009 by Marblehead Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Machin Shin Posted September 4, 2009 (edited) Marblehead  When you were in USMC what was the name of your platoon and how are your team mates? I am assuming that your tour has ended.  Irregular warfare is what is occurring in the middle east.  Regular warfare is what the Art of War describes.  At a modern college of defense studies these four questions are asked;  1. How does the world work?  2. What military capability do we have at our command?  3. How do we create that capability?  4. How do we deploy it?   The talk about the hundred families is to get an idea of how heavy the Karma's are of starting or responding to acts of aggression by foreign powers. If you can create an actual list of a hundred families that would support your business in this day, in this moment then you would begin to understand the simple ideas that are conveyed by the art of war and how the world is working. Edited September 4, 2009 by Machin Shin Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted September 4, 2009 Marblehead  When you were in USMC what was the name of your platoon and how are your team mates? I am assuming that your tour has ended.  Hi Machin,  I was Army. A career soldier. I have been retired from that for many years but I am still a soldier. And life goes on.  Yes, irregular warfare is what is going on in the Middle-East at present.  I do not disagree with anything you said above. However, I think that the various chapters of "The Art Of War" will speak to the issues you mentioned.  What I am hoping to do is to discuss the book and show how much of what is written within not only applies to warfare but to our everyday activities in life. For example, the "five constant factors" above are the basis of how we conduct ourself in society, not just considerations for warfare.  Happy Trails! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Machin Shin Posted September 4, 2009 (edited) One man with his feet firmly planted on the Earth and head suspended by the Heavens is the Commander of all the He sees. His View is centered by the Moral Law of what he is required to do by the Law. The Virtue of His Command is carried forth by the Methods and Discipline given to Him by Heaven. Â This is the Tao of a Commander. How great his duty is. Â Some logic training comes to mind from sutrayana: A General that thinks of himself as a General can never be. Likewise a General that doesn't think of command can never be. Furthermore there are no orders that a General can issue, nor are there any orders that can not be issued. This includes the officers that will receive the orders that are issued. They do not exist and as such there is no command of an army that the Heavens of the Taoist can perceive. Â This logic can be applied to modern chains of command as well as historical generals. Â Next we can do some logic training on the 100 families. Â Sarva Shunyata! Edited September 4, 2009 by Machin Shin Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted September 4, 2009 One man with his feet firmly planted on the Earth and head suspended by the Heavens is the Commander of all the He sees. His View is centered by the Moral Law of what he is required to do by the Law. Â This is what I always say regarding being present in both 'yo' and 'wu' simultaniously. Â Next we can do some logic training on the 100 families. Sarva Shunyata! Â Okay. I am still with you. Eventually we will be able to discuss the chapters of "The Art Of War". Â Happy Trails! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted September 7, 2009 Okay. It appears that the discussion of the 100 families has come to an end. Is there still anyone around who wishes to discuss The Art of War? Â Happy Trails! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ralis Posted September 8, 2009 I started the thread and was occupied with other things. Why not see how we can apply it to real life. More later. Â ralis Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Machin Shin Posted September 8, 2009 Who are your opponents? Â Isn't it better to help them than to harm them? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
