"The Art of War"

[Stigweard]

Not sure where this is in the text but I remember it saying that attacking an opponents "cities" are the coarsest level of warfare; that it was preferable to defeat their armies without destroying their settlements. Applied to interpersonal communication it is to deal with their words without making personal attacks.

[ralis]

deleted

Edited September 8, 2009 by ralis

[Machin Shin]

Once again any talk of war is a very heavy Karma. A Burden that one shouldn't take up casually.

 

I was discussing this topic with a nyingma yogi/chi gung artist last night over dinner. He has always been of the opinion that the most direct understanding of Taiji has been through the martial applications. We usually disagree and I've never seen him fight...just dance like the fool yogi that he is. Dancing is so much better for all that are concerned.

 

The use of this classic in modern days prepares the mind with the real masters of war being the enlisted men that control actual militaries.

 

 

The World Honored One was walking with an assembly of monks. He stopped and pointed to the ground and said,"This is a good place to build a sanctuary."

 

Indra, King of Gods, took a blade of grass, stuck it in the ground, and said, "The sanctuary is built."

 

The World Honored One smiled.

 

Does anybody know how Arya Nagarjuna died?

Edited September 8, 2009 by Machin Shin

[Marblehead]

Okay Folks. I will once again try to clarify my intentions concerning this thread.

 

My intentions are exactly the same as Ralis', that is, to look at The Art Of War to see which articles apply to our every-day life and how they might be applied.

 

I have no intention of starting a war; I have no intention of killing anyone; I have no intention of destroying anyone's cities; I have no intention of raping anyone's daughters.

 

This is a peaceful venture designed to add flexibility to our capabilities of interacting with other members of our society as well as interacting with members of other societies.

 

We come in peace!!!!! To learn peaceful ways from any and all sources.

 

(And just in the event that we might need defend ourself we will also learn of offensive and defensive warfare.)

 

And so, as soon as the members in attendance have settled down and prepared themselves for a possilbly interesting discussion we will consider the first article of Chapter One.

 

Thank you all for your very valid concerns.

 

Are you ready to go for it Ralis?

 

Happy Trails!

Edited September 8, 2009 by Marblehead

[ralis]

One way that I am attempting to use this strategy is with no limit poker. I need to get better at reading my opponents and individualize a strategy for that particular situation. Bluffing is an art and not a science.

 

 

ralis

[Machin Shin]

Where at the Cities of Gold in Pojoaque?

 

War isn't nice.

[Marblehead]

One way that I am attempting to use this strategy is with no limit poker. I need to get better at reading my opponents and individualize a strategy for that particular situation. Bluffing is an art and not a science.

ralis

 

Hehehe. I found out real fast after I joined the Army that I am no good at bluffing. Played poker and lost a bunch of money. Too bad for me then but it was a good lesson.

 

Perhaps you are in this category as well? Just asking. If so then any attemps at it (bluffing) would be readily seen by those who are good at it.

 

So when we have a weakness in one area we strengthen an area where we are already good at and use it as a defense for our weakness.

 

Observation (without prejudice) is always the most important aspect of learning about the capabilities and capacities of others.

 

Happy Trails!

 

 

War isn't nice.

 

You are correct. And therefore war will not be tolerated. Anyone wishing to start a war will be destroyed.

 

Happy Trails!

[ralis]

Where at the Cities of Gold in Pojoaque?

 

War isn't nice.

 

 

They have a new casino on the Towa golf course (250M cost). I like the Vegas casinos better.

 

 

 

quote Perhaps you are in this category as well? Just asking. If so then any attemps at it (bluffing) would be readily seen by those who are good at it./quote

 

 

Bluffing is an art that must be practiced carefully. One must wait for the appropriate time to bluff, otherwise it can be costly. Here are things I look for.

 

1. Opponents who play too many hands.

2. " who raise too much.

3. " who play out of position and call too many hands. Usually those hands are weak.

 

 

ralis

 

 

 

 

There is something wrong here. I tried to quote Marblehead and it quoted another post.

 

 

ralis

[Marblehead]

There is something wrong here. I tried to quote Marblehead and it quoted another post.

ralis

 

Yeah, I saw that but I understood that it had happened and read through the error.

 

I would agree, timing would be key regarding what you are speaking to. It is often said that timing is everything.

 

So let's see. The Art Of War, Chapter 5, Article 13:

 

The quality of decision is like the well-timed swoop of a falcon which enables it to strike and destroy its victim.

 

Happy Trails!

[Marblehead]

Okay. I will revive this thread to see if there is any interest in continuing it.

 

Back to "The Art Of War"

 

Chapter 1 Laying Plans

 

4 These are: (1) The Moral Law; (2) Heaven; (3) Earth; (4) The Commander; (5) Method and discipline.

 

5,6 The MORAL LAW causes the people to be in complete accord with their ruler, so that they will follow him regardless of their lives, undismayed by any danger.

 

7 HEAVEN signifies night and day, cold and heat, times and seasons.

 

8 EARTH comprises distances, great and small; danger and security; open ground and narrow passes; the chances of life and death.

 

9 The COMMANDER stands for the virtues of wisdom, sincerity, benevolence, courage and strictness.

 

10 By METHOD AND DISCIPLINE are to be understood the marshaling of the army in its proper subdivisions, the graduations of rank among the officers, the maintenance of roads by which supplies may reach the army, and the control of military expenditure.

 

I suggest that these articles apply to our every-day life in that:

 

Moral Law refers to our own set of morals and virtues.

 

Heaven refers to our environment in general.

 

Earth refers to our environment specifically and in more detail.

 

Commander refers to any boss (superior) we must follow as well as our own standards.

 

Method and Discipline refer to how well were are prepared to meet our every-day challenges.

 

Like the Boy Scouts say: Be prepared!

 

Happy Trails!

[Marblehead]

Okay. We are getting views but no comments.

 

I will continue with this for a time.

 

18. All warfare is based on deception.

 

[The truth of this pithy and profound saying will be admitted by every soldier. Col. Henderson tells us that Wellington, great in so many military qualities, was especially distinguished by "the extraordinary skill with which he concealed his movements and deceived both friend and foe."]

 

19. Hence, when able to attack, we must seem unable; when using our forces, we must seem inactive; when we are near, we must make the enemy believe we are far away; when far away, we must make him believe we are near.

 

20. Hold out baits to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and crush him.

 

[All commentators, except Chang Yu, say, "When he is in disorder, crush him." It is more natural to suppose that Sun Tzu is still illustrating the uses of deception in war.]

 

I think that these concepts are very important in the business world, especially in sales.

 

And, except for article 20, I think that this applies to self defense, in general, as well.

 

Happy Trails!

[Marblehead]

And so, moving to Chapter 2:

 

1. Sun Tzu said: In the operations of war, where there are in the field a thousand swift chariots, as many heavy chariots, and a hundred thousand mail-clad soldiers, with provisions enough to carry them a thousand LI (miles), the expenditure at home and at the front, including entertainment of guests, small items such as glue and paint, and sums spent on chariots and armor, will reach the total of a thousand ounces of silver per day. Such is the cost of raising an army of 100,000 men.

 

2. When you engage in actual fighting, if victory is long in coming, then men's weapons will grow dull and their ardor will be damped. If you lay siege to a town, you will exhaust your strength.

 

3. Again, if the campaign is protracted, the resources of the State will not be equal to the strain.

 

4. Now, when your weapons are dulled, your ardor damped, your strength exhausted and your treasure spent, other chieftains will spring up to take advantage of your extremity. Then no man, however wise, will be able to avert the consequences that must ensue.

 

5. Thus, though we have heard of stupid haste in war, cleverness has never been seen associated with long delays.

 

6. There is no instance of a country having benefited from prolonged warfare.

 

I think that this speaks to the subject of having the resources to accomplish those goals we set for ourself in life and insuring that we have the proper amount of time to accomplish those goals as well as to the point that we should try to accomplish our goals as quickly as possible else we may drain our resources and be unable to follow through with our goals.

 

Happy Trails!

[Marblehead]

Next stop, Chapter 3, Article 1.

 

Sun Tzu said: In the practical art of war, the best thing of all is to take the enemy's country whole and intact; to shatter and destroy it is not so good. So, too, it is better to recapture an army entire than to destroy it, to capture a regiment, a detachment or a company entire than to destroy them.

 

I think that this is a good generalized way to look at any goal we set in our life. When we set out to conquer any goal we should try to conquer it completely, in its original form. Afterall, its original form is what we wanted to gain in the first place. To destroy it in the process would most likely leave us with something that would otherwise not be worth conquering.

 

Happy Trails!

[Machin Shin]

And so, moving to Chapter 2:

 

1. Sun Tzu said:....will reach the total of a thousand ounces of silver per day. Such is the cost of raising an army of 100,000 men.

 

 

3. Again, if the campaign is protracted, the resources of the State will not be equal to the strain.

 

 

 

The thousand ounces of silver per day is supplied by the 100 families. The ability of the 100 families to supply the thousand ounces of silver per day is dependant on the wellfare of the state that has raised the fighting force.

 

A historical note during the 1600's in china and japan there was a economic war for control of silver. At the same time the world was going through the little ice age. Some mountain nations (tibet) and states near the mountains were experincing short growing seasons and the value of money was increasing and becoming scarce.

 

In the modern day the use of nuclear warfare is not very well understood by the populace. The main targets of nuclear missles are the refineries of the super powers. The warheads would be set to explode above ground to produce a large shockwave and less radioactive fallout. The electomagnetic pulse would destroy the new forms of modern communication. So no new fuel production and severe rationing of existing fuel supplies and a sizable percentage of the population suffering from trauma from the explosive shockwaves.

 

Terrorists with access to dirty bombs on the other hand would destablize the worlds economy even further but the nations infastucture that was attacked would be intact.

 

Ah the art of war.....

[Marblehead]

Excellent points Machin Shin,

 

I like the way you did that, supplimenting the sections already presented. Thanks.

 

Happy Trails!

[Marblehead]

posted in the wrong thread - sorry.

 

Happy Trails!

Edited September 23, 2009 by Marblehead

[Machin Shin]

A quote from the secret art of war

 

Befriend a distant state while attacking a neighbor

 

To understand the methods of the terrorist groups use this proverb.

 

But don't ask me where I got it from it's a secret.

[Marblehead]

A quote from the secret art of war

 

Befriend a distant state while attacking a neighbor

 

To understand the methods of the terrorist groups use this proverb.

 

But don't ask me where I got it from it's a secret.

 

No, it's not a secret. It is written so in the Chuang Tzu. And the thought was inspired by Lao Tzu.

 

There are no secrets around here.

 

Happy Trails!

[Marblehead]

Just a note: Anyone and everyone is invited to comment in this thread. I do enough talking to myself when I'm not on the computer. Hehehe.

 

Happy Trails!

[Marblehead]

Chapter 3, Article 2:

 

Hence to fight and conquer in all your battles is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting.

 

I think that this speaks to the concept that we should always try to resolve our issues with others, regardless of what the issue is, without conflict and violence. Rational discussion, IMO, is always better than violence.

 

Happy Trails!

[Ninpo-me-this-ninjutsu-me-that]

Chapter 3, Article 2:

 

Hence to fight and conquer in all your battles is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting.

 

I think that this speaks to the concept that we should always try to resolve our issues with others, regardless of what the issue is, without conflict and violence. Rational discussion, IMO, is always better than violence.

 

Happy Trails!

 

I think your right marblehead, but there is the other part that says 'destroy 'em all, destroy 'em all, leave none alive!", that's not quite the exact quote you understand but it's the general gist of it...perhaps with a bit less hyperbole though.

 

Still, it's sound advice, the former I mean.

[Marblehead]

I think your right marblehead, but there is the other part that says 'destroy 'em all, destroy 'em all, leave none alive!", that's not quite the exact quote you understand but it's the general gist of it...perhaps with a bit less hyperbole though.

 

Still, it's sound advice, the former I mean.

 

Hi Ninpo,

 

Hehehe. No, you will never find me supporting any concept I do not hold as valid. Therefore we shall not discuss the option of destroying them all. We are going to bring them into our fold with the least amount of violence necessary.

 

But then, were I still in the Active Army then the concept "take no prisoners" would appy.

 

Happy Trails!

[Ninpo-me-this-ninjutsu-me-that]

This thread is hilarious!

 

I'm sorry, I actually commented before reading over what was written on the first 2 pages. Page 2 is hysterical, it's the best laugh I've had all day, and that's coming from a real trier!!! War, poker, cities of gold, hats with dragons on them!!!!! I feel so disappointed I didn't find it earlier!

 

Since this is sun tzu art of war with personal theme based option, ie. Ralis and the poker, I would like to apply my learning in relation to catching the ladieeez and see if it might be applicable. 'Cos I tell ya, it's a war out there!

 

Isn't the city of gold in machupittchu?

[Mal]

Okay. We are getting views but no comments.

I can move this thread to the bookclub if you want less views

[Marblehead]

I can move this thread to the bookclub if you want less views

 

 

Hehehe. No, no, please no. Things have picked up a bit since I made that post.

 

(And actually, we have more participation with the "Journey" thread than I had anticipated. And I feel pretty confident that it will increase further as we get into more of the philosophies' concepts.)

 

Happy Trails!