Journey to the West

[Mal]

Anyone want to read Journey to the West together? A chapter every few weeks or so?

 

Nac posted the link

Wikipedia's External Links section lists several online resources including a complete e-book in English, if that helps: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Journey_to_th...#External_links

 

Having looked at the first chapter there are all sorts of layers here and I suspect almost all is going to be WAY over my head.

 

I would have known nothing about the timeline in the "genesis" story at the start except for the recent Ten Celestial Stems and Twelve Terrestrial Branches thread. And the imagery of four great continents and even getting into the HAPPY LAND OF THE MOUNTAIN OF FLOWERS AND FRUIT, CAVE HEAVEN OF THE WATER CURTAIN made me think of. http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?act=At...post&id=109

 

I'm not going to be able to get much more that a good story out of this journey without a lot of help, anyone want to come along?

 

So...... starting right at the beginning, they first poem reminds me of the big bang or that "one gives birth to two, two gives birth to three, three to the myriad things."

 

The Divine Root Conceives and the Spring Breaks Forth

As the Heart's Nature Is Cultivated, the Great Way Arises

Before Chaos was divided, Heaven and Earth were one;

All was a shapeless blur, and no men had appeared.

Once Pan Gu destroyed the Enormous Vagueness

The separation of clear and impure began.

 

Now the timeline of 5,400 years of course reminds me of the genesis story but I'm sure there is there more "information" but honestly I skipped to the magic stone Of course rereading gives hints but I'm unable to penetrate deeper on my own.

[Marblehead]

Anyone want to read Journey to the West together? A chapter every few weeks or so?

 

So...... starting right at the beginning, they first poem reminds me of the big bang or that "one gives birth to two, two gives birth to three, three to the myriad things."

 

The Divine Root Conceives and the Spring Breaks Forth

As the Heart's Nature Is Cultivated, the Great Way Arises

Before Chaos was divided, Heaven and Earth were one;

All was a shapeless blur, and no men had appeared.

Once Pan Gu destroyed the Enormous Vagueness

The separation of clear and impure began.

 

Now the timeline of 5,400 years of course reminds me of the genesis story but I'm sure there is there more "information" but honestly I skipped to the magic stone Of course rereading gives hints but I'm unable to penetrate deeper on my own.

 

Hi Mal,

 

I'll take a ride with you to see if we can make this a good thread. But no cheating. Hehehe. The poem says nothing about a time-line. Where did this info come from?

 

So I will speak to the poem. Yes, the story of the creation. Before the beginning All Was One and All was Chaos (undifferentiated Oneness). I would guess that 'Pan Gu' is the creator? ... or the 'Divine Root'?

 

Line 2 seems to be out of place. I don't disagree with the concept, it's just that I don't know who's heart we are referring to - pan Gu's heart?

[Mal]

Maybe heart is in the traditional sense. Like how traditional Chinese stuff use "heart" where modern western language would be using "mind". So thats like a meditation reference...... perhaps (this is like being back at uni )

 

And you're right the timeline is just after the poem. I'll try not to cheat but this a 100 chapter story so it's going to be a long journey

the link to the pdf is http://www.chine-informations.com/fichiers/jourwest.pdf

[Marblehead]

Maybe heart is in the traditional sense. Like how traditional Chinese stuff use "heart" where modern western language would be using "mind". So thats like a meditation reference...... perhaps (this is like being back at uni )

 

And you're right the timeline is just after the poem. I'll try not to cheat but this a 100 chapter story so it's going to be a long journey

(the link to the pdf is http://www.chine-informations.com/fichiers/jourwest.pdf)

 

Yep. I already downloaded the .PDF file so I have it on my computer.

 

Yeah. To the heart some more. As the Heart's Nature Is Cultivated, the Great Way Arises

 

These words worry me a little bit because in Taoism the heart is already pure at birth and it is cultivation that leads it away from its true nature and the (Great) Way.

 

I hope we get more players.

 

Happy Trails!

[Marblehead]

PS to Mal.

 

You have the lead here. I will follow as long as you lead.

 

Happy Trails!

[Mal]

All good. I'm happy to go in whatever direction anyone is interested in. I'm sure we will pick up more travelers too. Not everyone posts as much as us

 

At the moment I'm having a bit of a google for

 

In the arithmetic of the universe, 129,600 years make one cycle. Each cycle can be divided into twelve phases:

I, II, III, IV, V, VI, VII, VIII, IX, X, XI and XII, the twelve branches. Each phase lasts 10,800 years.

 

as I said I skipped over it the 1st time through so I'm having a look to see where this 129,600 came from. There is a lot of symbolism here that I'm just not familiar with. Had to look up Pan-gu too, lots of eggs in Chinese mythology apparently egg = chaos

Another legend says that the universe derived from Pan Gu's gigantic corpse. His eyes became the Sun and Moon, his blood formed rivers, his hair grew into trees and plants, and the human race sprang from parasites that infested his body

Nice

[Marblehead]

Hi Mal,

 

And I busted out laughing at this:

 

and the human race sprang from parasites that infested his body

 

That's not far off regarding some people I have known in my life.

 

Yes, there is a lot of strange and beautiful mythology in Chinese culture. I got my fill of mythology when I was younger reading Greek mythology.

 

When I started going deeper into Taoism I saw it coming and said, "Oh, No! Here we go again." So I stopped because my life had changed substantially from when I was a teenager and to when I started reading Taoist literature.

 

Wiki speaks to the 129,600 years here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jade_Emperor

 

Happy Trails!

[Mal]

Thanks for the link, they do like the big numbers I think we got short changed with a 7 day creation story

 

Jumping a bit, but staying in chapter 1 (I'm happy to move around) what is with these names like

Eastern Continent of Superior Body

Western Continent of Cattle−gift

Southern Continent of Jambu

Northern Continent of Kuru.

HAPPY LAND OF THE MOUNTAIN OF FLOWERS AND FRUIT, CAVE HEAVEN OF THE WATER CURTAIN

Happy land is descriptive, almost an Eden, not sure as to the imagery of the others.

[Marblehead]

Hi Mal,

 

Yeah. When we read mythology we will always encounter imaginary places used to symbolize concepts. Chuang Tzu even did it a couple times in stories he made up to present a concept.

 

For this thread's purposes we can either try to find the symbolizm in the places named, which would take a fair amount of research, or we could try to figure out the concept from what is said prior to and following the mention of the place.

 

Again, I leave that up to you but know that I will do my best to go in whichever direction you wish to take this thread.

 

Happy Trails!

[Mal]

For this thread's purposes we can either try to find the symbolizm in the places named, which would take a fair amount of research, or we could try to figure out the concept from what is said prior to and following the mention of the place.

 

Yes the hidden aspect intregues me. Is it just a cultural reference or more like the terms in the Nei Jing Tu

 

It would be a LOT of work to try and figure it out without some guidance. Just the context may give us enough info. Still the clever thing about this book is that it can be read on many levels.

 

Seeing how it's our discussion at the moment have you read Journey to the West before? Because I've only seen the TV show MONKEY and read a few various chapters.

[Marblehead]

Yes the hidden aspect intregues me. Is it just a cultural reference or more like the terms in the Nei Jing Tu

 

It would be a LOT of work to try and figure it out without some guidance. Just the context may give us enough info. Still the clever thing about this book is that it can be read on many levels.

 

Seeing how it's our discussion at the moment have you read Journey to the West before? Because I've only seen the TV show MONKEY and read a few various chapters.

 

Hi Mal,

 

No, I have never read it (to my recall) although I may have encountered references to it in other readings. So far at this time I have read only the first part of the first chapter you mentioned. (I didn't want to jump ahead of you. Hehehe.)

 

I did a little searching and found that "Southern Continent of Jambu" is mentioned in the "Tibetian Book Of The Dead." I think that the others you mentioned will be found mentioned in Buddhist documents somewhere.

 

Go with your gut and we can detour any time we want to.

 

Happy Trails!

[Mal]

I recon' we read the entire 1st chapter and then pick over it's tasty bones

[Marblehead]

I recon' we read the entire 1st chapter and then pick over it's tasty bones

 

We have a plan!

 

I'll be back!

 

Happy Trails!

[Mal]

Now that I'm back from holidays I was thinking of making some notes of a few bit in the first chapter that just jumped out at me. I'll re-read it in the next few days.

 

Things I remember noticing, the journey to the continents to find a teacher, none of that happened quickly.

Although he asked about the way of the Immortals, the Monkey King was unable to meet one. He spent eight or nine years in the Southern Jambu Continent, going through its great walls and visiting its little counties.

 

When he found that he had reached the Great Western Ocean he thought that there must be Sages and

Immortals on the other side of it, so he made himself another raft like the last one, and floated across the

Western Ocean until he came to the Western Continent of Cattle−gift. He went ashore and made extensive

and lengthy enquiries until one day....

 

I guess you can take your time if you are an imortal or perhaps these days we just expect travel to be quicker. But then the reason for the journey in the first place was the monkey kings knowledge that things change.

 

the Monkey King replied, "Yes, we don't have to submit to the laws and regulations of human kings,

and we don't live in terror of the power of birds and beasts. But the time will come when we are old and weak,

and the underworld is controlled by the King of Hell. When the time comes for us to die, we won't be able to

go on living among the Blessed, and our lives will have been in vain." All the monkeys covered their faces

and wept as everyone of them thought about death.

 

Suddenly a gibbon jumped out from their ranks and shrieked in a piercing voice, "If Your Majesty is thinking

so far ahead, this is the beginning of enlightenment.

 

and dedication to his task, even though nobody else seemed to think it was important

Whether he was eating his breakfast or going to bed at night he was always asking about Buddhas, Immortals and Sages, and seeking the secret of eternal youth.

He observed that the people of the world were too concerned with fame and fortune to be interested in their

fates.

[Marblehead]

Yea!! We are moving right along. Now I gotta' go back and take my notes.

 

Happy Trails!

[Yoda]

Great book selection! I just finished it and it was amazing!!! I'd say that anyone interested in Taoism, that this is a must read!

 

The main part to focus on in the beginning, imo, is the interaction between the Monkey King and his Immortal teacher.

 

Don't worry about skipping forward if it seems redundant. There is repetition and the important part is to get through the whole thing and enjoy it.

 

I'll go through and pick my fav chapters at some point for folks who just want Monkey King's greatest hits.

 

Yoda

[Marblehead]

Thanks for getting involved in this Yoda!

 

Happy Trails!

[Yoda]

If you want to learn about Creation and Time

Read Difficulties Resolved in Journey to the West.

 

Imo, the author is a very enlightened person and the above isn't idle bragging. Journey to the West contains some extremely profound explanations of the process of the cultivation of conduct within the Taoist and Buddhist paths.

[Marblehead]

If you want to learn about Creation and Time

Read Difficulties Resolved in Journey to the West.

 

Imo, the author is a very enlightened person and the above isn't idle bragging. Journey to the West contains some extremely profound explanations of the process of the cultivation of conduct within the Taoist and Buddhist paths.

 

Yes. I have already noticed that it is basically a Taoist text but it is very heavily influenced with Buddhist thoughts and concepts.

 

Anyhow, I have my notes to Chapter 1 prepared as soon as Mal is ready. (Not trying to push you Mal; remember, I am retired so I have more time available for stuff like this.)

 

Happy Trails!

Edited September 17, 2009 by Marblehead

[Yoda]

Marblehead,

 

I agree, but just a gut feeling.

 

So I asked Mak Tin Si for feedback about J2W and he said that obviously a lot of it is fictional but lots of it is very true too... he said that the main issue is that j2w talks about the heavenly realm as this party scene where the Gods get drunk and do things that they regret sometimes and also sometimes fall from heaven becoming demons in the lower dimensions. Per Mak Tin Si's lineage, the Gods are not party animals but are very focused and very good to the extent that falling from heaven never happens. It turns out that the 5/6 realms of Buddhism are different from the realms of Taoism where the God realm in Taoism is a bodhisattvic like realm.

 

Some other thoughts: when the Monkey King gets kicked out by his Taoist teacher, he keeps his powers... this wouldn't happen in real life.

 

The interactions between the Taoist teacher and Monkey King and the Monkey King teaching martial arts to the king's three boys later in the book is an accurate representation of the style of Taoist teachings... with lots of ritual empowerments of the student mainly with the expectation of the student following certain moral guidelines.

 

The Monkey rampage in the early part of the book is a bit redundant... stick with it or skim until Monkey gets crushed by the Buddha and the book picks up again.

 

Your pal,

Yoda

[Marblehead]

Hi Yoda,

 

Yeah, I already picked up on the understanding that this was intended to be a fictional work to be used as a vehicle for presenting Taoist and Buddhist concepts.

 

I agree that with most fictional work like this there will be a lot of (can I used the word 'unnecessary'?) and redundant words but I found out a long time ago when I was reading Greek Mythology that the 'unnecessary and redundant' were most often used to reinforce a thought or concept.

 

Yeah, I will have to take all this with a little salt being that I am not attached to any religion or religious dogma.

 

But it should be fun none-the-less when we get to discussing the Taoist and Buddhist concepts presented in the book.

 

Are you going to stay with us when Mal and I start discussing the chapters? I hope so. (Prod, prod. Hehehe.)

 

Happy Trails!

 

 

(PS: Thanks for the "Your pal" salutation - it has meaning for me.)

[Yoda]

Marblehead,

 

I'm wondering if Subhuti the Taoist is any relation to Subhuti the Buddhist patriarch?

 

I've heard that there is a translation of j2w that has very extensive footnotes.

 

Interesting that there are lots of spells to memorize in j2w's Taoism. One of the patterns that Subhuti says happens is that as one progresses in Taoism demons rise up in response!

 

It seems to be a theme in j2w that going to the dark side is just part of the journey and helps one not to fall to the dark side's tricks in the future.

 

Your pal,

Yoda

[Marblehead]

Marblehead,

 

I'm wondering if Subhuti the Taoist is any relation to Subhuti the Buddhist patriarch?

 

I've heard that there is a translation of j2w that has very extensive footnotes.

 

Interesting that there are lots of spells to memorize in j2w's Taoism. One of the patterns that Subhuti says happens is that as one progresses in Taoism demons rise up in response!

 

It seems to be a theme in j2w that going to the dark side is just part of the journey and helps one not to fall to the dark side's tricks in the future.

 

Your pal,

Yoda

 

 

Hi Yoda,

 

You're taking me places I think I have not been. Hehehe.

 

Here's something from Wiki:

 

Subhuti may have been the inspiration for Sun Wukong's teacher, Patriarch Bodhi, in the classic Chinese novel Journey to the West. However, it's debatable whether Patriarch Bodhi was meant, in fact, to be Subhuti. Apart from their difference in name, Patriarch Bodhi taught a mixture of both Buddhism and Taoism, while his powers were most definitely Taoist.

 

During my early searching into Taoism (many years ago) I did notice that the religion acquired a lot of gods and demons. I'm not sure if they are all Buddhist or if some of the Hindu beliefs were added as well. But there is also older Chinese Mythology that was acquired by the religion as well.

 

If Stigweard reads this he might be able to give us some insight.

 

I had a power outage so I was on break for a while. Hehehe.

 

I did a search on the net and did find one other complete translation but it had no footnotes.

 

I think that for what Mal wants to do the version he posted will be fine.

 

Happy Trails!

[Mal]

Anyhow, I have my notes to Chapter 1 prepared as soon as Mal is ready. (Not trying to push you Mal; remember, I am retired so I have more time available for stuff like this.)

 

All good. Post away as I'm sort of eager

to know what success he had in cultivating his conduct, you must listen to the explanation in the next installment.

 

The woodcutter reminded me about something I read about "levels" of religion once. Depending or your merit (or intelligence (?)) some people are only interested in material things, others can follow another's teachings by reciting prayers or rituals and a few people can aim for a higher understanding.

 

I found the Patriarch trying to find out monkeys surly name and about his parents rather amusing

 

and I'm sure others will chip in on the journey

[Marblehead]