Journey to the West

[Mal]

 

So Chapter 3 Monkey trains an Army

Your Majesty, you could either buy arms or get them made; then you could train us to use them in the defense of our mountain.

 

There must be ready−made weapons here," Sun Wukong thought, "and getting a few by magic would be

much better than buying them.

and steals some weapons, sweet

 

and enter the famous Magic Wishing Staff (well That's how I remember it)

AS−YOU−WILL GOLD−BANDED CUDGEL: WEIGHT 13,500 POUNDS'.

Stand aside, and I'll make it change again."

Holding his treasure in his hand he said, "Shrink, shrink, shrink," and it became as small as an embroidery

needle, tiny enough to be hidden in his ear.

[Yoda]

I think we all need each other. Any "ism" is a separation and hence can not fully encompass the true way.

 

 

Polarization by any means results in separation.

 

 

Seriously though... that's the weed talking!!!

 

Put me down for a big order of Tao-ism and hold the Buddh-ism, thanks! Maybe I'll be alone here, but I think J2W is all about what's great with Taoism and what's problematic about Buddhism as embodied by the Monkey and the Priest. If it was just the MK and no priest, the whole journey would have only taken a few days with little chance of failure assuming the MK actually cared enough about the mission in the first place.

 

The Priest does score highly when he tears out or accedes to the tearing out the dude's beating heart during the funeral ceremony and I'll be the first to admit that he has a number of seriously mega-siddhis and is a highly focused man, but lots of Taoists have those virtues too.

 

If anyone knows anything about Taoist or Buddhist funeral ceremonies and has read chapter 9, I'd love your thoughts on that whole thing esp the beating heart and liver being tossed into the water thing.

 

Also, Chapter 10 is really great at explaning the Taoism chain of command through the story of the Dragon King and the Fortune Teller... love that story. And the fisherman and the woodcutter arguing at the begining of the chapter is priceless!

 

As it is said... when two people talk on the road there is always someone listening in the grass!

 

Yours,

Yoda

[Marblehead]

Well Folks,

 

I have finished Chaper 3.

 

I regret to inform you that I did not find one single lesson in the chapter.

 

The Mokey King was being a real 'ass'.

 

Happy Trails!

[Yoda]

imo, 3-8 there are some accounts of what life was like in the Heavenly court... lots of parties!!! Mak Tin Si says that this isn't actually the case.

[Mal]

hehe yes, I think monkey has also realized, like in the letter

There is truly no match for him, and he is uncontrollable

and is pretty much following his Id.

 

Perhaps the lesson is that there is always a higher authority. Currently Monkey is definitely a big fish in a small pond I wonder what heaven will do?

Raised to a high−ranking heavenly office,

Listed among the courtiers in the clouds.

If you don't know what office he was given, listen to the explanation in the next installment.

 

And I don't know if I'm reading too slow but isn't this a continuity error

"Since hearing the Way," Sun Wukong replied, "I have mastered the seventy−two earthly transformations. My somersault cloud has outstanding magical powers. I know how to conceal myself and vanish. I can make spells and end them. I can reach the sky and find my way into the earth. I can travel under the sun or moon without leaving a shadow or go through metal or stone freely.

yes but

 

I can't be drowned by water or burned by fire.

<and>

"After my birth," said Sun Wukong, "I renounced the world and cultivated my conduct, and thus obtained an

immortal and indestructible body.

 

I though his indestructible body was always there, a product of being born from the egg. Although erasing a few names from the book of death certainly helped

 

Seriously though... that's the weed talking!!!

Always possible Mon "It's not the dread upon your head, but the love inna your heart, that mek ya Rastaman"

 

Put me down for a big order of Tao-ism and hold the Buddh-ism, thanks! Maybe I'll be alone here, but I think J2W is all about what's great with Taoism and what's problematic about Buddhism as embodied by the Monkey and the Priest.

Disagree. I see it as how they complement each other, the importance of working together. The only trouble I had with Tripitaka was he looked like a girl and was rather attractive but that wasn't enough to stop me becoming a buddhist. I didn't even know J2W was "Taoist" until pointed out. But I'm a unifier not a divider.

[Marblehead]

... but that wasn't enough to stop me becoming a buddhist. I didn't even know J2W was "Taoist" until pointed out. But I'm a unifier not a divider.

 

Hehehe. I think you are really a Taoist in a Buddhist robe.

 

When you first mentioned reading it I somehow knew that it was a Taoist/Buddhist story. Don't know why though. Might have been something I looked at back in the early 1980s when I was reading some Buddhist literature. But that's too far back for me to remember something I decided to not pursue.

 

So soon I will be finding out what position he is offered in heaven.

 

Happy Trails!

[Mal]

Hehehe. I think you are really a Taoist in a Buddhist robe.

 

Thanks. I'm more non denominational now and since 2001 I've been putting "Jedi" on the census forms. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jedi_census_phenomenon

[Marblehead]

Thanks. I'm more non denominational now and since 2001 I've been putting "Jedi" on the census forms. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jedi_census_phenomenon

 

That's cool. I just left it unmarked on the last one. I have also been known to put "human" in the "Race" block on some forms.

 

Happy Trails!

[Mal]

I might use that "Human" I already have enough trouble not answering yes on the sex question So thanks

 

I regret to inform you that I did not find one single lesson in the chapter.

 

The Mokey King was being a real 'ass'.

 

This is why book clubs are cool. I manaded to steal D's Bebook eBook reader for a more thorough contemplation.

 

The Dragons and the underworld basically go off sulking to heaven, like I child running to "tell Mommy" While what they wrote was true, from a certain point of view, You could just as easily say Monkey was also behaving ethically. He was polite, nobody refused him or if they did they were then persuaded by his arguments. And he was only acting in self defense. Ok externaly he was an obvious bully but would monkey see himself like that?

 

Like now it is a sound tacit to get your complain into the legal systyem 1st. Lucky for Monkey the planet intervened.

And mentioned the nine apertures, 2 eyes, 2 nostrils, 2 ears, 1 mouth & 2 below ---your belt (I love goggle guess they can't say urethra and anus on that site)

 

That reminded me of the start about the stone egg which I didn't really understand especially coming after all the other numbers in the "genesis" story.

On top of it were nine apertures and eight holes, for the Nine Palaces and the Eight Trigrams.

[Ninpo-me-this-ninjutsu-me-that]

Seriously though... that's the weed talking!!!

 

Put me down for a big order of Tao-ism and hold the Buddh-ism, thanks! Maybe I'll be alone here, but I think J2W is all about what's great with Taoism and what's problematic about Buddhism as embodied by the Monkey and the Priest. If it was just the MK and no priest, the whole journey would have only taken a few days with little chance of failure assuming the MK actually cared enough about the mission in the first place.

 

 

 

 

I dunno....but you know you mentioned Kwan Yin as a Taoist deity but she's kind of Buddhist as well, and if we're really gonna go down that path then we gotta talk about the roots of the Monkey King himself. In the Hindu religion which predates Taoism they have a Monkey God called Huneman or Hunman which the Chinese one is based on, actually my spelling is off on both counts but it's something like that. It is true that the Monkey could have got the scriptures real quick, but he also wouldn't have become enlightened, he had to do the work, the journey...and as we all know it's the journey not the destination actually I do kind of disagree with that which is why my leanings are more Taoist, for me it's most definately the destination, but I think that was the authors point, the imapatience of the Monkey precludes him being able to achieve enlightenment and compassion. But if it were a Taoist text it would be one page long ie. Monkey went to India to pick up some scriptures. Then he came back. The end.

 

Mal, Tripitakka also confused me when I was younger, supposed to be a boy but looks like a girl. I really had to question myself when I watched that show, I tried to focus myself more on Pigsys conquests. Actually it was a female actress, she died of leukemia some years later sadly.

 

Anyway I better go off and do some reading.

[Mal]

At last I recognise a reference. The beautifull blue skined kali

 

"Change," yelled Nezha in a passion, and at once he had three heads and six arms, which made him look most

ferocious. In his hands he held six weapons, a demon−beheading sword, a demon−hacking cutlass, a

demon−binding rope, a demon−quelling pestle, an embroidered ball, and a fire−wheel−−and wielding all

these he rushed straight at Sun Wukong.

 

 

And that number 72 again

Then there were seventy−two precious halls:

the Monkey King returns to the mountain in triumph to receive the congratulations of the

seventy−two kings of the monsters

the Great Sage replied. "I can perform seventy−two transformations

[Yoda]

I was wondering if the Monkey King is Ramayana inspired at all? They say if you read the Ramayana just once, you'll be much wiser the rest of your life. I like to think that the same is true for J2W.

[Ninpo-me-this-ninjutsu-me-that]

Yoda

 

I gotta say there is a lot of '9' going on in this book. 72 as well as Mal just mentioned, that's a bit Buddhist. Nine being the only number that always when multiplied can be reduced to itself. 2x9=18 1+8+9, 3x9=27 2+7=9...and so on add infinitum. Seven is considered a magical number, perhaps of magic I should say, and two is duality, but 7+2=...you got it, again 9. Very Buddhist so far

 

There's is a lot of reference to the different compass points, ie' King monkey sat facing the south'. As far as I remember....and my memory is shaky on this, the south is related to the element of fire, not the physical element but the inner one. So any magical practice related to expanding something would be faced in that direction. Quite what that had to with that situation I don't know, and all those compass points are giving me a headache. But that is more a Taoist slant.

[Mal]

Yes I find it hard to tell if a lot of the symbolism is just "Chinese culture" or "hidden meaning"

 

We will learn a lot of Buddhist stuff in Journey to the West, be afraid If we want a pure Taoist story we will have to trach down pdf's of White Tiger Green Dragon or Seven Taoist Masters: A Folk Novel of China

[Ninpo-me-this-ninjutsu-me-that]

Yes I find it hard to tell if a lot of the symbolism is just "Chinese culture" or "hidden meaning"

 

It's both. Chinese culture has that within it since way back. It has kind of blended into it, yet most Chinese don't know its inner meaning. A mundane example would be the fact that in China they often drink hot water, where as in western countries we may drink hot drinks but hot water as a drink is a rarity. If you ask them why some will say they don't know and be very surprised westerners don't do the same, others will tell you it must be because at first you have to boil the water to make sure there are no bacteria, but the inner meaning is chi. Cold water suddenly drunk stunts chi, whereas hot water aids its flow. They have a lot of things like that, they just don't know themselves what the reason is.

[Yoda]

It's both. Chinese culture has that within it since way back. It has kind of blended into it, yet most Chinese don't know its inner meaning. A mundane example would be the fact that in China they often drink hot water, where as in western countries we may drink hot drinks but hot water as a drink is a rarity. If you ask them why some will say they don't know and be very surprised westerners don't do the same, others will tell you it must be because at first you have to boil the water to make sure there are no bacteria, but the inner meaning is chi. Cold water suddenly drunk stunts chi, whereas hot water aids its flow. They have a lot of things like that, they just don't know themselves what the reason is.

 

 

thanks for the lesson! That's one of the reasons I believe J2W is such an important book for westerners... everything has been cooking together for centuries that it is hard to tease out different inspirations. I would love to know more about the interrelationships between Taoism and Confuscianism, but J2W doesn't seem to cover that.

[Marblehead]

I would love to know more about the interrelationships between Taoism and Confuscianism, but J2W doesn't seem to cover that.

 

Maybe something from the erly Tang Dynasty would have something? Both were very infuential during that period.

 

Don't loose your Self!

[Ninpo-me-this-ninjutsu-me-that]

thanks for the lesson! That's one of the reasons I believe J2W is such an important book for westerners... everything has been cooking together for centuries that it is hard to tease out different inspirations. I would love to know more about the interrelationships between Taoism and Confuscianism, but J2W doesn't seem to cover that.

 

 

Oh Yoda, Don't get me started on Confusciansim. It's my pet hate. I have seen so many lives ruined because of it. The whole of Chinese culture is based on it. Confuscianism - create a structure and mode of living and people will mold themselves to it and become good(act good). Taoism - look within find your true heart and after clearing out the crud you will become good(as it's your true nature). Confuscianism is fake good ie. repression. Never dealing with the crud and just pretending your ok. Listen to your parents, do as your'e told, listen to who ever has power and don't rock the boat. I will admit Confuscianism is good for running a country and creating 'order' of some sorts. But it is for the collective not the individual, Taoism is for the individual. Taoism has played second fiddle to confuscian thinking for way too long. It probably always will to, as it requires work, and people don't like work, not really; whereas Confuscianism asks only that you toe the line, whatever line that may be and then one day you will get 'power', as in titles and so forth.

 

I would say in J2W you can see Confuscian thinking in the way the heavens are set up as a goverment/hierarchy. That's Confuscian opinion, the opinion that heaven has this as does earth, a mirror if you like. It's really only that people can't conceive of what they can't conceive so they replace it with something familiar. Ie. God as an old man with a beard.

[Mal]

It's staring me in the face *slap*

 

The confucian element is heaven. Rules, regulations, offices, duties. And that would give us our triumbrant of classic Chinese religious interrelationships Buddhist-Taoist-Confucian.

[Ninpo-me-this-ninjutsu-me-that]

It's staring me in the face *slap*

 

The confucian element is heaven. Rules, regulations, offices, duties. And that would give us our triumbrant of classic Chinese religious interrelationships Buddhist-Taoist-Confucian.

 

Ya, bit of a pity how Confusciansism ever palmed itself off as a religion I'll never know. Actually the only real religious part of it is the worship of Mr Kong fu tse and each persons ancestors, and they got that whole worship deal from Daoist and Buddhist concepts in a effort to legitimize it. Cheeky. Really cheeky.

[Mal]

I don't know sometimes really strict rules are all the majority of people can handle with regards to religion. The majority of people don't even like to waste time thinking about religion or spirituality. If pestered they may go through the motions of a quick ceremony but back to "real life"

 

Some individuals are more questioning and are drawn to religions that encourage such free thinking. But if I was attempting to govern a huge population encouraging everyone to act as they see fit could be REALLY interesting especially with a low average level of education.

 

I feel most religions tend toward discoraging free thinking and just following rules for this reason. They are gathering a mass of people under a banner, not encouraging individual expression.

[Ninpo-me-this-ninjutsu-me-that]

Ya, I agree....that's kind of why that religion bugs me. It's not so much a problem if a few people just go to pay homage, it's when the thinking behind it becomes an intristic part of the culture and then 'tradition', then everyone winds up in a prison.....it's been 2500 years since that guy popped up, and they still follow the 'tradition'. 2500 is a long sentence for any culture. It's just past it's sell by date really, 2500 years ago, ya, cutting edge, but now

[Marblehead]

Hi guys,

 

I never thought of Confusciansim or Taoism as religions and I think that this is why Buddhism was so easily accepted by many Chinese. After Buddhism enter the scene the circle was complete.

 

You had Taoism for personal cultivation, Confuscianism for social cultivation and Buddhism for spiritual cultivation.

 

Happy Trails!

[Yoda]

You had Taoism for personal cultivation, Confuscianism for social cultivation and Buddhism for spiritual cultivation.

 

Marblehead hearts Buddhism!

 

Ninpo-me-this-ninjutsu-me-that,

 

Thanks for the Confuscian lesson! There has got to be some sort of inner cultivation side of C. somewhere though? In their music theory or something? It's got to exist somewhere!

 

Your pal,

Yoda

 

repost from Chinese History thread:

 

On the topic of democracy being hijacked in America by unseen forces, that's a major theme in Journey to the West compiled in the Ming dynasty: rulers influenced by evil Taoists, fox demons, etc... whereupon a subtle bad-energy clouds gather over the kingdom (early chemtrails?) that the Monkey King could look at to see how prosperous and happy the kingdom in question was and he could tell who *really* ruled the country before even meeting the Emperor in person but meanwhile, even the Emperor himself and his court had no idea that they had been led astray...

[Marblehead]

Marblehead hearts Buddhism!

 

 

Hehehe. I know that you might find the hard to believe but I actually admire Buddhism. I just don't like the way it has corrupted Taoist Philosophy.

 

And, of course, we are seeing so much of this in our story.

 

Happy Trails!