Journey to the West

[Yoda]

I thought it was cool that MK met a person unable to practice as he had to support his mom but still the Immortal taught him a song he could use.

 

I thought he found his teacher rather quickly and seemed to be an ideal student and learned much more quickly than his peers. He didn't have to work very hard for his enlightenment. Maybe for this reason he falls to become an evil demon. It turns out later it is said that MK is eating people, presumably stealing their energy in classic j2w demon style.

 

There seems to be two forms of energy theft in the book: sly seduction and straight conquest. MK as demon goes the latter road but he can see trickery of seduction instantly when escorting the Priest.

[Marblehead]

I thought it was cool that MK met a person unable to practice as he had to support his mom but still the Immortal taught him a song he could use.

 

 

Yeah, there is one Chuang Tzu story that plays on this theme.

 

Happy Trails!

[Mal]

I thought he found his teacher rather quickly.

While it didn't take many words it did take him many years to want to find a teacher and then to search one out over the 2 continents. I guess there wasn't too much exciting stuff happening to monkey during that time as a highlight was stealing clothes at the start!

 

Shall we press on

to know what success he had in cultivating his conduct, you must listen to the explanation in the next installment.

Except for perhaps gleaning a significance of the names used. (Flowery Chinese vs deeper meaning, perhaps a combination) I feel we have pondered chap one ofr a while and I'm looking forward to the next chapter as it should allow some debate on this.

 

and seemed to be an ideal student and learned much more quickly than his peers.

 

as I guess having the right parents i.e. a stone egg must have really helped him. Got to chose those parents wisely!

[Yoda]

as I guess having the right parents i.e. a stone egg must have really helped him. Got to chose those parents wisely!

 

 

I guess having a rock for one's parents reduces ancestral baggage a bit, huh?

 

Here's a j2w repost from another thread regarding the relationship between Buddhism and Taoism:

 

I recently finished reading Journey to the West and in that the relationship between Buddhism and Taoism seemed not quite like siblings but more like cousins: The main characters were all Buddhist but the Monkey was Taoism trained and the Priest was Buddhism trained. The Monkey was very wise to the world and more worldly but the Priest was always on his case for killing too much, arguing, etc. The Priest was safely above the world and never killed anyone or cursed, etc but was always very easily manipulated by demons pretending to be Buddhas and Bodhisattvas and lived in a more idealized world.

 

In the book there certainly was conflict between Taoist Kings and Buddhist monasteries and that sort of thing but rarely conflict between Immortals, the Heavenly Kingdom, and the Bodhisattvas and the Buddha. The Buddha was tacitly above the Taoist Gods per the book which doesn't sense that one religion would accept the command structure of another, but I think this does reflect the political realities of China.

 

It's my understanding that the Ming dynasty destroyed many Taoism Temples and converted them to Buddhism which helped set the tone for J2W... that Taoism was officially second fiddle to Buddhism after that point.

 

Which is odd as the Buddhist monastic ideals definitely do not line up with the importance of having children in Chinese culture, but there you have it.

 

So the Monkey King makes the point that both Taoism and Buddhism have their primary focus on the "cultivation of conduct" and ethics which often gets lost in the shuffle in other religions so that is a point of unusual overlap and agreement which seems to be the basis of fairly good overall cooperation between the two religions in J2W. On the other hand, I'm sure many Chinese Taoists are irritated by the fact that a foreign religion from India gained the official upper hand.

 

Another theme in the J2W is that Taoist teachers go to the dark side all the time and that Buddhist teachers tended only to be victimized by evil but do not go evil themselves. Kwan Yin is a Bodhisattva in the story and she has a pet gold fish that goes evil and eats children as a cultivation practice but the Kwan Yin eventually reprimands the fish and returns it to its koi pond. Apparently the fish was able to draw upon Kwan Yin's power to become a demon in the first place and then wanted to enhance its career by taking energy from kids but got busted by the Monkey King who alerted Kwan Yin to her gold fish's rebellion.

 

But that's the level of Buddhist evility. Aside from that, the Buddhists tended to be easy pickings for demons and evil Taoists but remained fairly innocent throughout the book.

 

~~~~

 

 

Imo, the J2W doesn't even start until they get to the birth circumstances of the Priest and the Monkey King gets a second chance from Kwan Yin so I'd vote to keep moving ahead with the reading or even skipping ahead. I'll post my fav chapters at some point. The birth circumstances of the Priest chapters are nothing short of amazing... incredible stuff and possibly the best introduction to Chinese religion ever penned imo.

 

PLOT SPOILER ALERT... Marblehead, since you are going to read it anyways, skip the small print. It's more of an enticement to try to encourage more people to read these chapters:

 

 

 

The execution of the Dragon God by the Tang Emperor's minister while playing chess with the Emperor who was trying to stay the execution... then the Emperor is dragged to the King of Hell to plead his case... doesn't get *any* better than that!!!!

 

 

 

 

 

 

Fun stuff!!!

 

Yoda

[Marblehead]

PLOT SPOILER ALERT... Marblehead, since you are going to read it anyways, skip the small print. It's more of an enticement to try to encourage more people to read these chapters:

The execution of the Dragon God by the Tang Emperor's minister while playing chess with the Emperor who was trying to stay the execution... then the Emperor is dragged to the King of Hell to plead his case... doesn't get *any* better than that!!!!

Fun stuff!!!

 

Yoda

 

Yeah, I have already noticed that there is a lot of "Stuff" in there that I will be skimming over. I don't wnat to be corrupted by all those Buddhist concepts and mythology. Hehehe.

 

Happy Trails!

[Mal]

I don't wnat to be corrupted by all those Buddhist concepts and mythology.

It's all good (as long as it's not getting flooded ) Taoism and Buddhism have a long history of symbiosis.

 

He Becomes Aware of the Wonderful Truth of Enlightenment

By Killing the Demon He Realizes His Spirit−Nature

Cool

 

The Patriarch then ordered the others to take Sun Wukong out

through the double doors and teach him how to sprinkle and sweep the floor, answer orders, and deport

himself properly --

The next morning and every following day he studied language and deportment under his spiritual elder brothers, expounded the scriptures, discussed the Way, practiced calligraphy, and burnt incense. When he had any spare time he would sweep the grounds, dig the vegetable patch, grow flowers, tend trees, look for kindling, light the fire, carry water, and fetch soy. Everything he needed was provided. Thus six or seven years slipped by in the cave without his noticing them.

One day the Patriarch took his seat on the dais, called all the Immortals together,

and began to explain the Great Way.

insert restless monkey

"You won't study this and you won't study that, so what do you want, you monkey?" He went up

to Monkey and hit him three times on the head, then went inside with his hands behind his back and shut the

main door, abandoning them all. The class was shocked, and they all blamed Sun Wukong.

"You cheeky ape, you've no idea how to behave. The master was teaching you the Way, so why did you have

to argue with him instead of learning from him? Now you've offended him we don't know when he'll come

out again."

After three years had passed in this way the Patriarch once more sat on his lecturing throne and expounded the

Dharma to the students.

 

 

seemed to be an ideal student and learned much more quickly than his peers. He didn't have to work very hard for his enlightenment.

 

Well he did have secret teaching in those 3 years that the others didn't have access to but it still wasn't really quick even for the gifted Monkey. Can we imagine anyone these days puting in 7 years building a foundation and then one student getting the "good stuff"

[Marblehead]

It's all good (as long as it's not getting flooded ) Taoism and Buddhism have a long history of symbiosis.

 

I know. I was just being naughty.

 

Happy Trails!

[Mal]

it's fun to be naughty.... and we are reading about monkeys.

[Marblehead]

it's fun to be naughty.... and we are reading about monkeys.

 

Hehehe. And I feel like one sometimes when I get into the heated discussions with our Buddhist friends but I do what I have to do. I am a Taoist afterall.

 

Happy Trails!

 

PS I haven't started reading Chapter two yet. I have been spending a lot of time editing music lately and I come here to take a break from that. But all things have their proper time.

 

Happy Trails!

[Yoda]

I just read chapter 9 to the kids. I forgot that the Priest as a young man rips a beating heart and liver out of someone as part of a funeral ritual... It doesn't say him particularly but there were just 3 people and it referred to "they".

 

Those crazy Buddhist monks!!!

[Mal]

keep posting spoilers and I'll tell you how it ends

 

 

 

actually we could just discuss favorite bit's but Marblehead has never read it before. I've seen the TV series heaps but only read chapters here and there never the whole book.

[Marblehead]

Yeah! Wait for me, Y'all!!!

 

Happy Trails!

[Yoda]

Marblehead and Mal,

 

The beating heart thing... I didn't catch that the first time around!!! Maybe the Priest is quietly looking at his feet while the others did the dirty work... hard to say... there's only so much Buddhism a 17 year old can handle. We'll have to see how the online translator handled it.

 

Sorry to get ahead of things... I sort of think of chapters 1-8 as prequel stuff. I'm rereading 9, 10 & 11 to the kids... I love those chapters! My daughter has excellent recall too... very impressive.

 

So the story was compiled in the Ming and set in the Tang Dynasty. Chapter 9 really showcases the importance of the examination system in China... that a scholar out of a nothing family can end up marrying a high minister's daughter and rule his very own Chinese State just by getting a great score!!! That's really great! I heard that various emperors and dynasties treated the "examination class" differently... wanting to give smart guys power but not too much power. Often the term of rulership would be limited and they would be moved around on a regular basis was one method of insuring that most power stayed centralized.

 

your pal,

Yoda

[Marblehead]

Hi Yoda,

 

Thanks. I guess I best get to reading so I can catch up.

 

Happy Trails!

[Marblehead]

Okay. Chapter 2 is finished.

 

Only thing I saw of interest was the art of studying hard and

 

don't show off else you will become the envy of many.

 

Did I miss anything?

 

Happy Trails!

[Yoda]

the Monkey King, while polite, definitely took his teacher for granted and hence had a very brittle connection. After getting kicked out of his lineage he was very chipper and began to crash parties... so a bright student but not a faithful student. Very American!!!

[Mal]

The Patriarch sent them all away except for Sun Wukong, to whom he said, "Come here. Is that a way to use

your spirit? To change into a pine tree? Is this a skill you should be showing off in front of people? If you saw

somebody else doing that, wouldn't you ask him to teach you? If other people see you doing it, they're bound

to ask you to teach them, and if you want to keep out of trouble you'll have to do so; otherwise they may do

you harm, and then your life will be in danger."

 

My Sifu once told me never to show off either. He recently said something like "Don't scare the pigs to scare the wolves" I've misremembered it, some sort of an old kung fu saying. Basically don't show that you are superior to others that way if a wolf comes along you will be able to surprise them

 

"Now that you're going," the Patriarch said, "I'm sure that your life will not be a good one. Whatever disasters

you cause and crimes you commit, I forbid you under any circumstances to call yourself my disciple. If you so

much as hint at it I'll know at once, and I'll tear off your monkey skin, chop up your bones, and banish your

soul to the Ninth Darkness. I won't let you out for ten thousand aeons."

 

Not a lot of confidence from his teacher that he would keep himself out of trouble..... and monkey certanly didn't disappoint in the trouble seeking stakes.

 

The fight was also a good example. The demon saw the unarmed monkey, prepared to be overwhelming and unstoppable i.e. armor and weapons not looking for a fair fight, just a win. Yet Monkey was also prepared with hidden weapons, his fur That's the way to do it.

 

Ok so on to

The Four Seas and Thousand Mountains All Submit

In the Ninth Hell the Tenth Category Is Struck Off the Register

 

Lets play free and loose and catch up to Yoda's kids

[Ninpo-me-this-ninjutsu-me-that]

Oh fantastic, Journey to the west, what a great choice. Chinese Taoist texts, so many different layers. The Monkey, Pig and water demon and monk, so many symbols of human characteristics.

 

Mal, is the tv show you refer to the one made by the Japanese?

 

And can I join in?

[Marblehead]

Mal, ...

And can I join in?

 

You are already in as far as I'm concerned.

 

Okay, I'll get to Ch, 3 first chance.

 

Happy Trails!

[Yoda]

Ninpo-me-this-ninjutsu-me-that,

 

Thanks for joining! It's my opinion that J2W is more of a Taoist text than a Buddhist one... but maybe that's just me... I'd love to know if you agree with that thought and how you would support that. My reasoning is that the Monkey King is a trained Taoist and the Priest is the trained Buddhist and the book really is more about the Monkey King.

[Mal]

Mal, is the tv show you refer to the one made by the Japanese?

 

That's the one. It screens every few years her in Australia. So I've seen it as a kid, teenager and adult. I've always wanted to read the book and just never got around to it. Them we discovered an online version.

 

Welcome to the journey, no rules, we just read a chapter every week or so, perhaps since we have more people I won't jump to catch Yoda but have a longer look at chapter 3. Various Taoists have hinted there is a lot of depth in journey to the west. I'm trying to her under the surface and explore.

 

I intend for this journey to take many years

[Ninpo-me-this-ninjutsu-me-that]

Ninpo-me-this-ninjutsu-me-that,

 

Thanks for joining! It's my opinion that J2W is more of a Taoist text than a Buddhist one... but maybe that's just me... I'd love to know if you agree with that thought and how you would support that. My reasoning is that the Monkey King is a trained Taoist and the Priest is the trained Buddhist and the book really is more about the Monkey King.

 

 

Frankly that's hard to say. It contains both elements. I think Wu Cheng en rather cleverly blended the two to show how in some ways the two had blended within Chinese culture, and perhaps also to suggest they were going in the same direction. The monkey is definitely a Daoist figure seeking as he does, immortality, and he is often at odds with the Buddhist monk, perhaps as sometimes Daoism can be at places at odds with buddhism. But the monk cannot succeed without Monkey, and Monkey cannot really develop true compassion and understanding without the monk. I think the author saw the connection and strengths and weakness's between the two and decided to tie it all together in this story. So, to cut a long answer short(bit late for that really)I think it's neither one nor the other, Taoist or Buddhist, simply because neither can succeed without the other, I mean in perhaps the authors opinion, not mine. The book is an interesting commentary on both religions and also human nature. Still, it is a tad biased in my view simply because the monkey is always being punished by either the Buddhist deities or the Buddhist monk.

 

Having said that, Monk/ey.

 

That's the one. It screens every few years her in Australia. So I've seen it as a kid, teenager and adult. I've always wanted to read the book and just never got around to it. Them we discovered an online version.

 

Welcome to the journey, no rules, we just read a chapter every week or so, perhaps since we have more people I won't jump to catch Yoda but have a longer look at chapter 3. Various Taoists have hinted there is a lot of depth in journey to the west. I'm trying to her under the surface and explore.

 

I intend for this journey to take many years

 

 

Ya, the Japanese one is a lot of fun.

 

So chapter 3? I better get started, it's been a long time since I first read it

 

 

ps. Great to be here by the way, thanks for letting me join in

[Yoda]

Ninpo-me-this-ninjutsu-me-that,

 

Well said!

 

Although as a Taoist I take exception to the idea that Taoism needs Buddhism...

 

The Priest's cloistered Buddhist ways nearly nuked the expedition on many occasions. Sure the Bodhisattva air strikes saved the day many times but Taoists have celestial beings too including Kwan Yin... plus it ought to be shameful for the Chinese to go to India for wisdom!

 

Your pal,

Yoda

[Mal]

Although as a Taoist I take exception to the idea that Taoism needs Buddhism...

 

I think we all need each other. Any "ism" is a separation and hence can not fully encompass the true way.

 

plus it ought to be shameful for the Chinese to go to India for wisdom!

 

Lol exactly, since most of it came from India in the first place

[Marblehead]

Although as a Taoist I take exception to the idea that Taoism needs Buddhism...

 

Hehehe. I feel the same way but I'm not going to say it.

 

But you are right Mal. Polarization by any means results in separation.

 

But then, I must say, I take exception from your last statement. Hehehe.

 

Happy Trails!