What is Suffering?

[Unconditioned]

I've read here, other forums, and in books about the Buddhist ... ideal? (probably not the right word) to end suffering.

 

In another post about the cycle of life and death it made me think about what does it mean to suffer anyway?

 

I used to experience a lot of depression and I still do but I'm not caught up in it any more. When I used to identify with depression I would suffer ("Why does MY life suck so much? Why can't *I* get all the girls? Why does everyone else have a better life than ME", etc.). So the identification, taking an event and making it literally part of my sense of identity, caused me to suffer.

 

Now I try to just observe what is happening as it happens ("There is a sense of sadness here, I feel an anxious sensation in my stomach and there is a lack of energy").

 

So when something happens, some event that is being observed, the degree of how much of my 'being' is identified with it determines how much, if any, suffering occurs (whether in that moment or at some future time). By observing rather than identifying, I tend to be able to see the more subtle aspects of my identification with the 'things/events' and attribute that identification to the suffering.

 

So even when something pleasant comes to an end that is just fine because that's what it does. When something unpleasant happens, that's just fine because that's what it does. Is this non-suffering or is it escapism? My intuition tells me that there is a fine line between observation and escape/passivity.

 

What do others think about suffering / non-suffering? Identification? Passivity?

[Marblehead]

Hi Unconditioned,

 

I think that this is a very important subject. I believe that one will never find inner peace and contentment as long as they are suffering.

 

However, what I would really like to see here is a good, honest post by one of our Buddhist members capsulizing, in layman's terms, what the Buddha himself said about suffering and how to avoid it.

 

Peace & Love!

[Ryan T.]

What do others think about suffering / non-suffering?

 

Suffering=Attachment(clinging).

[Encephalon]

Buddhism 101

 

The Four Noble Truths

 

Life is Hard (suffering, difficulty, anguish)

 

It's hard because we fuss and crave (my terms) and have unquenchable desires. Suffering is caused by attachment, desire, and ignorance.

 

The cylce of suffering can be broken. Craving can be short-circuited.

 

The way to achieve this is through the Noble Eightfold Path.

 

1. Right understanding

2. right thought

3. right speech

4. right action

5. right livelihood

6. right effort

7. right mindfulness

8. Right concentration

 

All teachings ultimately stem from these. Buddhism is psychological and rational. "Growth of the heart by way of the mind," to quote the Dalai Lama.

 

So, if I were to offer an example from my own life, I would use sex.

 

I suffer because I want to have sex with just about every woman I meet. I can either try to satiate my sexual urges by finding legions of women who will cater to my uncontrollable desires, or I can do the ferociously difficult work of reducing my sexual appetite.

 

(On a side note: when I was a personal trainer I was surrounded by gorgeous women all day long, almost as much as in grad school in LA. At one point, I went on Paxil for about three months, just to take the edge off, and it completely killed my sex drive. It turned out to be one of the most peaceful periods of my life just because of that alone.)

 

And by the way, The Buddha admitted that if there existed another physical impulse as powerful as the sex drive, he never would have had his awakening. Pretty sobering, eh?

 

 

 

I have to say that David Loy is the maverick Buddist scholar today. A western trained philosopher who went on to become a Zen teacher in the Sanbo Kyodan tradition, he possesses a skill of writing that is so illuminating it almost brings you to tears. Check out "Money, sex, War, Karma" or "The Great Awakening" for a treasure trove of massive explanatory power.

[Marblehead]

Nice post Blasto. Thanks.

 

Happy Trails!

[Unconditioned]

So, if I were to offer an example from my own life, I would use sex.

 

I suffer because I want to have sex with just about every woman I meet. I can either try to satiate my sexual urges by finding legions of women who will cater to my uncontrollable desires, or I can do the ferociously difficult work of reducing my sexual appetite.

 

This is where I have a hard time understanding the Buddhism approach (not a critique/judgement) and maybe Buddhism is more pragmatic than I am!

 

The options to give in to an urge (and therefor suffer) versus the option to try to reduce appetite (and therefor try to change the situation) both seem like forms of suffering to me... unless the approach to reducing the suffering is through awareness, observation, etc. Otherwise, we'll be trying to address every symptom rather than the root cause.

 

If I'm aware of what the cause of ALL desire is, if I really observe what is happening without trying to change a thing, then I can understand what is happening in general rather than in specific cases. But maybe to get there it could take a few focused areas? I'm not sure on that one...seems like it could be either a waste of time or it could be a useful stepping stone.

 

And with the 8-fold path, I've struggled with it as a system of ethics, of right and wrong which has the potential to create division, conflict, and the results of those (e.g., a sense of 'rightness' or superiority compared to others who are living in conflict with the 8-fold path). Even if one tries to live by the ideals, there will always be self-judging against those ideals - I've done good, I've done bad, I've done neither - and that can be a trap which leads to further strengthening of the self... or maybe over time those ideals can loosen the grip of identification with sense objects/thoughts?

 

Edit: I digressed quite a bit there... back on topic: What is suffering? I think on the gross level it's when there is a gap between expectations and what actually is. We want it this way but it's that way. The subtle suffering is what is much more difficult... can we trick ourselves into believing that everything/one is ok as it is?

 

Hmm.

Edited September 3, 2009 by Unconditioned

[Marblehead]

What is suffering? I think on the gross level it's when there is a gap between expectations and what actually is. We want it this way but it's that way. The subtle suffering is what is much more difficult... can we trick ourselves into believing that everything/one is ok as it is?

 

Hmm.

 

I think you might have hit on a very important concept regarding suffering. I have never made the association myself but when I read your words they just seemed to be so valid.

 

I have spoke on expectations before and have pointed out that we are oftentimes disappointed when things do not go according to our expectations. But I suppose that these disappointments could be extended to the roots of our suffering. And I think that ego needs be discussed along with this subject as well because it is our ego that tries to extend itself to others, i.e., a desire to control others.

 

Good food for thoughts.

 

Peace & Love!

[Lucky7Strikes]

Suffering=Attachment(clinging)

 

= desire = intent = identity = ignorance

 

= suffering!

[Encephalon]

There is a limit to how much knowledge and clarity you can acquire on your own. Re-inventing the wheel seems to be a popular pastime in this forum. I would encourage everyone interested in such fundamental questions as the nature of suffering to NOT solicit information in here because you have no control over what you'll end up with. If suffering is the subject at hand, then there is no other major philosophical tradition in the world besides Buddhism that specifically targets human suffering. The most popular book on Buddhist psychology today is probably "The Wise Heart" by Jack Kornfield. It is incredibly reader-friendly.

 

Curiosity is one of the main ingredients behind an authentic spiritual life. It's healthy and necessary, but I would warn anyone from asking too many questions at once. Study is just as important as the contemplative side.

 

"Buddhism Without Beliefs" by Stephen Batchelor will also explain why moral precepts are not "moralizing"

per se; they are not commandments from above, but challenges to act when facing the enormity of being born.

 

Good luck.

[Birch]

Why try to eliminate (or reduce) desire?

 

Just don't do the thing if it's not the "right" thing to do ("right" thing for who?)

 

I see that often, people want to extinguish desire as a means to avoid doing "the wrong thing" and so they suffer.

 

I do think that suffering is the act of straining to close the gap between the way things are and how one would like them to be.

[Ryan T.]

Why try to eliminate (or reduce) desire?

 

Just don't do the thing if it's not the "right" thing to do ("right" thing for who?)

 

I see that often, people want to extinguish desire as a means to avoid doing "the wrong thing" and so they suffer.

 

I do think that suffering is the act of straining to close the gap between the way things are and how one would like them to be.

 

So how long before this thread falls into the Buddhist vs. Taoist trap?

 

And I totally agree with you.

[Birch]

If anyone sets up an "ist-trap" on this thread I will have to escape!

 

I love our ist-friends, don't get me wrong. But if they do it, I will not suffer;-)

 

More seriously. Suffering to me feels like a sort of a strain. It's a movement that is not with the way things are (including myself in that idea of things). So maybe from a Taoist perspective it would be un-wu-wei? Which is not a proper term.

 

I think there's a better translation than "suffering" when it comes to the original term which I believe is dhukka (sp?)

[Nanashi]

I think there is a misconception of "suffering" between desire, angst or anguish. Not being able to attain something is relative-- desiring the girl next door or a new car isn't the same as an African being hobbled and forced to mine diamonds for Western markets. One can choose to objectify a goal; not gaining it can cause depression, but being unable to live in freedom (be it literal slavery, or of the mind) can cause suffering.

 

That is, to say, suffering can be an illusion or real, and there is a big difference between the two.

Edited September 4, 2009 by Nanashi

[Encephalon]

Wow. Looks like it's split into two, maybe three different conversations already. Definition of terms goes right out the window here. At this point I would have to suggest that this medium doesn't lend itself to clear communication.

 

Whoever got Dukkha right wins the prize for tonight.

[Vajrahridaya]

Ignorance in Buddhism is in reference to ignorance of our true nature, which is whole and complete without having to think about it or reference it with something "other". The Buddha's first words after his enlightenment were, "The Mind and it's phenomena are pure and uncompounded since beginningless time". This means free from folly, free from concept, free from paradox, free from trapped in causation... liberated!

 

Dzogchen takes this radical approach in saying that suffering is merely the mis-recognition of one's truly holistic and playful nature. We are complete and perfect, in the sense that we are inherently free from both craving and the idea of freedom from craving, just by seeing the empty and dependent nature of all systems of thought and systems of manifestation, systems of identification, systems of craving freedom from craving (religious tenet systems), which just compound our attachment to a subtle "I" that needs to "do", because what it identifies with, it thinks of as "mine". It's interesting though that when that experience or epiphany of freedom dawns, it's a sense of deeply relaxed bliss without grasping identity, there is no attachment for or rejection from. It's "aaaaahhhh" ease. We transcend and become completely eminent in the moment through the practice of recognition of what all this truly is without effort. It's the natural state. All these excuses of "human nature" are all just false identifications, and social conformity with habit patterns that are essentially self perpetuated due to false identities again perpetuated by society like a cycle.

 

The freedom point happens through the break through eureka experience that we receive from a liberated master, dead or alive though it's easier if the teacher is alive, especially at first. The mind pointing, or pointing out instruction or inspiration from a teacher is crucial. There are various names, abhisheka (bathing in the clear waters), transmission, etc. Every spiritual tradition has this teacher disciple relationship at it's core, otherwise how does a tradition withstand the test of time and spread it's good wings across the planet? The highest form is when the student actually receives the essence of the Masters wisdom on a level that transcends all our dualistic ideas of "I" and "other", as well as transcending complete oneness. This is why when you read about the incredible masters of antiquity who talked about their life, they talk about their time of seeking and how they truly wished to find the greatest teacher of the greatest teachings, the one's that will set them free from psychological suffering and inspire them to be all that they can be, like one candle lighting other candles, one after another without itself loosing it's own power to shine, is really all a good teacher does. The potential is already there, but by his or her recognition of his or her own potential the inspiration naturally shines through many modes of expression.

 

The great teacher is the inspiration that allows us to see what a human can be. In recognition of the true nature of all being.

Edited September 4, 2009 by Vajrahridaya

[Apech]

I think the idea that existence = suffering puts a lot of people off Buddhism and is actually confusing because dukka, although it can be translated as suffering has the broader meaning of conditionality. The enlightened mind does not depend on anything for happiness - while the samsaric mind has fallen into the trap of thinking it does. Another way of looking at it is to say that there is no utopian earthly existence which liberate you from suffering - because no matter how perfect, balanced and blissful your life is, unless your mind is free from attachment to things then it is conditioned and at some time things will change. So even apparent blissful existence has the seeds for eventual suffering.

 

Desire (together with ignorance and hate) is one of the drivers which keeps the wheel spinning. We think "If only I had that ... I would be happy". But its not really true, it might bring temporary happiness but that's the best you can expect from any external thing. But its not really about crushing desire, more about being wary of its nature and outcomes. Desire itself is a force or energy which has become mixed with confusion. Ultimately, freed from attachment it becomes a force for liberation. Same goes for wishing for a better life for yourself and others. Bt the Buddhist position would be that really any better life or happiness comes together with liberation/enlightenment independent of external causes (which are misunderstood by our confused and unenlightened minds anyway).

 

I am not into the Buddhism/Taoism sparring which happens here.

[Marblehead]

Very nice posts, those last two, I think. Thanks guys.

 

Of course, my journey was slightly different because of the way I progressed form point A to point B. (I said it that way so to not imply that I am at any specific place along my journey.)

 

For me, it all boils down to 'free will'. I have the free will to suffer or not suffer. The choice is mine. I don't have to give up anything because all else plays no part in determining whether or not I am suffering.

 

Even these old-age pains in my body play no part in this. All I need do is accept the fact that the pains exist and continue living my life. (Sure, I will do whatever I can to reduce the pain but that is as it should be.)

 

Happy Trails!

[dwai]

I've read here, other forums, and in books about the Buddhist ... ideal? (probably not the right word) to end suffering.

 

In another post about the cycle of life and death it made me think about what does it mean to suffer anyway?

 

I used to experience a lot of depression and I still do but I'm not caught up in it any more. When I used to identify with depression I would suffer ("Why does MY life suck so much? Why can't *I* get all the girls? Why does everyone else have a better life than ME", etc.). So the identification, taking an event and making it literally part of my sense of identity, caused me to suffer.

 

Now I try to just observe what is happening as it happens ("There is a sense of sadness here, I feel an anxious sensation in my stomach and there is a lack of energy").

 

So when something happens, some event that is being observed, the degree of how much of my 'being' is identified with it determines how much, if any, suffering occurs (whether in that moment or at some future time). By observing rather than identifying, I tend to be able to see the more subtle aspects of my identification with the 'things/events' and attribute that identification to the suffering.

 

So even when something pleasant comes to an end that is just fine because that's what it does. When something unpleasant happens, that's just fine because that's what it does. Is this non-suffering or is it escapism? My intuition tells me that there is a fine line between observation and escape/passivity.

 

What do others think about suffering / non-suffering? Identification? Passivity?

 

 

Suffering happens because all the things that give us "pleasure" are transient and impermanent. Our relations (are subject to time, opinions, circumstances), our material comforts, our psychological and emotional comforts, etc.

 

Human beings tend to seek happiness and pleasure and shirk away from pain and discomfort. Why human beings, all living creatures do that. So, when we are faced with the impermanence of those things that we think give us pleasure, we are depressed, sad, angry, envious (all the negative emotions).

 

The key to removing suffering is to realize that these things (that we suffer for) are impermanent and transient. We have to learn to take things at face value, for what they are...not what our categorical framework(s) ascribe as being their value (usually amplified). The other is to realize that there is a state in which none of this matters...the state of the absolute, eternal Self...of non-duality.

 

The restlessness that we all feel (at some stage in our life), the thirst for succor (sometimes of the spiritual kind), jumping from one thing to another is all symptomatic of a deep-rooted, suppressed, almost forgotten grain of truth embedded in our systems...to rediscover the "real" Self. Identification is the identification with those things that are not really about who we are really...all those transient material things...our home, car, relations, etc. This identification is a mis-identification. The real Identity is what remains after all these Non-Self things are stripped away and put aside.

 

Thought I'd share this article I'd written last year on the topic of "non-suffering" (or Happiness) --

 

Looking for Happiness -- Where can I find it?

Edited September 4, 2009 by dwai

[Marblehead]

 

Thought I'd share this article I'd written last year on the topic of "non-suffering" (or Happiness) --

 

Looking for Happiness -- Where can I find it?

 

Very nice article Dwai! Thanks for sharing.

 

Happy Trails!

[Unconditioned]

The realization of impermanence... if we take that lens and apply it to our sense of self identification I think we can get a good view of suffering.

 

Everything is constantly in flux, every event influences every other event. We suffer for a few reasons, and maybe they're all the same reason, but maybe we can talk it out a bit.

 

In general...

 

We suffer when what we expect to happen in the future plays out different than we expected.

We suffer when we look at a pleasurable memory of the past and want to bring that to the present.

We suffer when we recollect about a painful memory of the past and want it to go away.

We suffer when we feel pain - physical or otherwise.

 

What are the causes of those forms of suffering?

IDENTIFICATION with the thoughts, of experiences, of physical sensations, etc.

Our literal sense of "me" is defined by these thoughts.

"I'm so pathetic because everyone thinks I'm dumb"... therefor I identify with what I think other people think.

"I'm so wonderful because I was born with good looks"... therefor I identify with the looks.

 

When our sense of identity is threatened we suffer. When what we think, which is our identity, does not play out as expected... when reality is different then our thoughts/expectations, litterally our sense of identity is attacked, it's no longer valid.

 

We suffer because we create an identity. This identity is a mishmash of thoughts. The thoughts are not reality. When we see what we are is different from reality we suffer, there is a gap. If there is no gap, if we don't identify with the thoughts but are aware of them. There can be no suffering, everything is as it is.

[Marblehead]

Yeah Unconditioned,

 

Just don't go giving your Self away. You are important. You are one piece of the puzzle picture. Without you the picture would be incomplete.

 

Happy Trails!

[Lucky7Strikes]

It's interesting though that when that experience or epiphany of freedom dawns, it's a sense of deeply relaxed bliss without grasping identity, there is no attachment for or rejection from. It's "aaaaahhhh" ease. We transcend and become completely eminent in the moment through the practice of recognition of what all this truly is without effort. It's the natural state. All these excuses of "human nature" are all just false identifications, and social conformity with habit patterns that are essentially self perpetuated due to false identities again perpetuated by society like a cycle.

 

I agree. The acceptance of social conditioning, which is based on the concepts of "I" and "mine" leads to cycles of suffering. Until an event or a master breaks that cycle, one keeps going in circles.

 

But I don't think words such as "natural/true state," is relevant to discussing liberation. There is no such thing as a true or a natural state for a human being. Potential goes both ways as the ever changing Way of phenomena.

 

Yeah Unconditioned,

 

Just don't go giving your Self away. You are important. You are one piece of the puzzle picture. Without you the picture would be incomplete.

 

Happy Trails!

 

Careful, you just might be picking a fight there with someone someone! .

Edited September 4, 2009 by Lucky7Strikes

[Marblehead]

Careful, you just might be picking a fight there with someone someone! .

 

Yeah, I know. But someone had to say it. Hehehe.

 

Happy Trails!

[Lucky7Strikes]

Yeah, I know. But someone had to say it. Hehehe.

 

Happy Trails!

 

But I totally agree with you. "You" can't get rid of "you." Whether it is because of D.O. or a Self, to deny an "I" is to deny existence. Both Buddhism and Hinduism point to transforming this "I" into a different state so that one may escape suffering.

 

All interactions and events happen according to the merging of intents of all sentient beings, so to say "I" am not part of this picture is ridiculous. You're both the creator and the created. .

[Unconditioned]

"You" can't get rid of "you." Whether it is because of D.O. or a Self, to deny an "I" is to deny existence. Both Buddhism and Hinduism point to transforming this "I" into a different state so that one may escape suffering.

 

All interactions and events happen according to the merging of intents of all sentient beings, so to say "I" am not part of this picture is ridiculous. You're both the creator and the created. .

 

Who are you though? "You" are not separate from thoughts but are "you" the sum of your past memory and future projections based on our limited senses/thoughts?

 

What do you mean by the merging of intents? If I intend to do something but do not do it... and why only sentient beings? If a rock falls and kills a man who's intent was it?

 

Yeah Unconditioned,

 

Just don't go giving your Self away. You are important. You are one piece of the puzzle picture. Without you the picture would be incomplete.

 

Happy Trails!

 

Are we so sure about that? I'm not getting rid of anything or add anything, just trying to see what is for what it is rather than attaching a label to it called "me".