Marblehead Posted September 6, 2009 Actually we're born in fear. Cheeeeezzzzzeee! Now you have me suffering again! Happy Trails! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted September 6, 2009 (edited) Sorry. Double post. Edited September 6, 2009 by Marblehead Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
contrivedname! Posted September 6, 2009 Good points of interest in that post of your's Contrivedname! Thanks for sharing. What is a clear mind worth? I think it is beyond the concept of placing value. Happy Trails! uh oh now we have just concepted a 'clear mind'. but to continue to use conceptual language to point at non-conception i will posit that if the mind conceives value of a certain state of mind it is not a 'clear mind'. i believe that a child may be born with an 'empty' mind and then concepts and beliefs are later 'chucked' on them by societial, familial and religious paradigms etc. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted September 6, 2009 uh oh now we have just concepted a 'clear mind'. but to continue to use conceptual language to point at non-conception i will posit that if the mind conceives value of a certain state of mind it is not a 'clear mind'. i believe that a child may be born with an 'empty' mind and then concepts and beliefs are later 'chucked' on them by societial, familial and religious paradigms etc. Hey! It was ~jk~'s 'clear mind', not mine. Hehehe. I equated 'clear mind' with the state of 100% wu (oneness) that we are sometimes allowed to experience during meditation. Yes, it is difficult to imagine nothingness. But then, when in a state of 100% wu we conceive nothing so there is no value to nothing. Words! Iieee! Yes, I hold to the empty slate concept at birth. Yes, my fellow Buddhists, I know you disagree with me. And much of that stuff you mentioned is the stuff we later must remove from our mind before we have any chance at all for inner peace, harmony and contentment. Happy Trails! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vajrahridaya Posted September 7, 2009 (edited) And much of that stuff you mentioned is the stuff we later must remove from our mind before we have any chance at all for inner peace, harmony and contentment. Happy Trails! Not for a Buddhist and endless enlightened Buddhists have proved your point wrong by attaining total peace and contentment while knowing directly their own past lives. Don't limit us to your experience. Don't limit yourself by your own experience. Edited September 7, 2009 by Vajrahridaya Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted September 7, 2009 Not for a Buddhist and endless enlightened Buddhists have proved your point wrong by attaining total peace and contentment while knowing directly their own past lives. Don't limit us to your experience. Don't limit yourself by your own experience. Oh, I'm not trying to limit anyone. I am only voicing my opinions. I really don't know anything. However, ... Never mind. Hehehe. Happy Trails! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vajrahridaya Posted September 7, 2009 Oh, I'm not trying to limit anyone. I am only voicing my opinions. I really don't know anything. However, ... Never mind. Hehehe. Happy Trails! LOL! Well... I can't see any depth of peace happening unless one just ignores the problem and merely accepts one's life is random chaos or merely a physical order with nothing beyond the 5 senses and their tools. I don't see this answering the questions of will and personal conditioning. But, one could just "nevermind" and ignore the question. Thus, ignorance is pleasure, conditioned by not going deeper. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted September 7, 2009 LOL! Well... I can't see any depth of peace happening unless one just ignores the problem and merely accepts one's life is random chaos or merely a physical order with nothing beyond the 5 senses and their tools. I don't see this answering the questions of will and personal conditioning. But, one could just "nevermind" and ignore the question. Thus, ignorance is pleasure, conditioned by not going deeper. Ah! Choices! I love my free will!!!! And since the universe contains much more knowledge than I could ever hope to attain I must therefore make choices as to what I wish to learn and what I wish to ignore. When I was younger I had no choices. Shit was poured into my brain. In the most part I have been able to remove all the useless crap and that allowed room for more stuff. But it is stuff that I decided to hold. Did you know that Doug Kershaw's recording of "Louisiana Man" was the recording selected to be the first to be transmitted back to Earth from the Moon? Stuff like that is in my brain. I love music. I also love to dance. Yeah, Yeah, apparently I love to run my mouth too. Hehehe. So we each find our own Way. I'm too busy dancing to worry about it all that much. And as my brain is constantly busy there is no time available for suffering. Suffering sucks! Hey! What happens if you reverse the polarity when connecting the horn to your vehicle? . . . It sucks! (Doesn't blow.) Happy Trails! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JustARandomPanda Posted September 8, 2009 (edited) So even when something pleasant comes to an end that is just fine because that's what it does. When something unpleasant happens, that's just fine because that's what it does. Is this non-suffering or is it escapism? My intuition tells me that there is a fine line between observation and escape/passivity. I have yet to figure this one out. It's easy to get seduced by words. That because I understand it it somehow also makes it a good guide. Yet when I try to actually implement that understanding...to bring it to everyday realization in all the little acts and decisions one must make every day...it still goes off course. The surprise I got from the Shaktipat is Case Exibit A. All these years I'd been thinking I'd been taking a 'just let it go', 'go with the flow' approach to life and instead it seems I was just stuffing depression and resentment away. I was taking advice often handed out on 'accepting things as they are' and genuinely trying to live it - thinking that by not dwelling on it and focusing on positive things instead it would release naturally eventually. Instead it grew stronger and now I've got some psychological and physical pain issues to deal with. So there it is. I no longer have a clue as to how to proceed to deal with things that are standing in the way of being "Wu Wei". I thought I was trying to practice and live my life to eventually bring it into Wu Wei. Thousands of posts on TaoBums...many not unlike this thread and now I end up thinking: Between the idea And the reality Between the motion And the act Falls the Shadow -t.s. Elliott Edited September 8, 2009 by SereneBlue Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vajrahridaya Posted September 8, 2009 Hey! What happens if you reverse the polarity when connecting the horn to your vehicle? . . . It sucks! (Doesn't blow.) Happy Trails! LOL! Right on... very good. But, I see this type of will still being conditioned by subtle polarities in the unconscious that are not being made aware of if one does not illumine consciousness beyond the brain/body complex. In Buddhism, we attain omniscience of the entire functionality of the cosmos. As we are a part of it and connected to the entirety, through expanded awareness one taps into beyond brain conscious ability to realize directly the entirety of cosmos on a level beyond dualistic thought functionality as well. The microcosm discovers it's macrocosmic body. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted September 8, 2009 (edited) But, I see this type of will still being conditioned by subtle polarities in the unconscious that are not being made aware of if one does not illumine consciousness beyond the brain/body complex. No disagreement there. If you were anywhere colse to me you would feel the polarities of Chi fluctuating all over the place. You might even be able to feel it in reading the words I write. There ain't no balance here - there is a wonderous harmony of all the variables - conscious nad unconscious. But Oh!, My!, what beautiful sensations of all those emotions flowing through my body! And this, Sir, brings me to the post Serene presented above so please excuse me while I speak with her for a moment. Serene, I know exactly what you are talking about. I know because I have been there and I must say that I didn't like it. I found that any time I do not express an emotion I experienced it always caused me problems later. Didn't really matter if it was a positive emotion or a negative one. We hold them in and they grow and fester and cause internal conflict which causes additional problems. I found that what works best for me is that I express those emotions as quickly as possible after experiencing them. If someone tees me off I let them know immediately; if someone pleases me I express my thanks openly and fully. An important aspect of this though is that we must be perfectly honest with our expression, not adding anything to it but yet not leaving anything out. To just pretend such and such didn't happen and we are going to just let it flow through and let it go away is only fooling ourself. Our brain doesn't work that way. So what I am saying is that we should feel fully every experience we have in life, accept it for what it was, adding nor subtracting nothing, respond naturally to it, then it will go away all by itself. Sure, we will sometimes recall the experience on occasion but as long as we are satisfied with our reaction to it it will not cause any inner conflict. And even when those pleasurable experiences return we can dwell on them a short while and actually have that same emotion again. Ain't life great?!?!?! Happy Trails! Edited September 8, 2009 by Marblehead Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
contrivedname! Posted September 9, 2009 I have yet to figure this one out. It's easy to get seduced by words. That because I understand it it somehow also makes it a good guide. Yet when I try to actually implement that understanding...to bring it to everyday realization in all the little acts and decisions one must make every day...it still goes off course. The surprise I got from the Shaktipat is Case Exibit A. All these years I'd been thinking I'd been taking a 'just let it go', 'go with the flow' approach to life and instead it seems I was just stuffing depression and resentment away. I was taking advice often handed out on 'accepting things as they are' and genuinely trying to live it - thinking that by not dwelling on it and focusing on positive things instead it would release naturally eventually. Instead it grew stronger and now I've got some psychological and physical pain issues to deal with. So there it is. I no longer have a clue as to how to proceed to deal with things that are standing in the way of being "Wu Wei". I thought I was trying to practice and live my life to eventually bring it into Wu Wei. Thousands of posts on TaoBums...many not unlike this thread and now I end up thinking: Between the idea And the reality Between the motion And the act Falls the Shadow -t.s. Elliott straightforward post, right on. right; when people just say something like 'accept things as they are' as advice they may not be taking into account that what they understand by this may be and probably is different from what someone else will understand by it. you are quite right of course, dont worry be happy doesnt work in the long run. marblehead has some good insight there about feeling your emotion as it arises good, bad, indifferent. when i stopped stuffing my emotions i found i would get angry pretty easily at first which is one of the negative emotions i was stuffing. what i found to be useful would be to contemplate why i was angry, why would something set me off? many times i found that after the emotion had passed or even in the process i would suddenly catch myself and then it would become somewhat funny like "i am pissed about that, damn i am an idiot". after a while i realized that depression and anger, etc. were completely dependent upon me and they should only be attributed to oneself; part of the stuffing, in my experience, has to do with blaming emotions on something external, not identifying them as a part of your mind, but as an outside enemy. in the past i probably read into 'accept things as they are' in a similar way you did. now i would like to think of that as meaning accept things as they are good or bad without fixating on them and thereby not causing yourself perturbation. interesting quote, what exactly does it mean to you? chris Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vajrahridaya Posted September 9, 2009 (edited) No disagreement there. If you were anywhere colse to me you would feel the polarities of Chi fluctuating all o I found that what works best for me is that I express those emotions as quickly as possible after experiencing them. If someone tees me off I let them know immediately; if someone pleases me I express my thanks openly and fully. If one just follows "natural" inner patterns which are really habit formed without contemplation of the true nature and causes of the inner arisings, then no liberation will be realized. From a Buddhist perspective at least. But, your not a Buddhist and you think physical death is the end. So... alas. This is why in Buddhism most beings throughout many lifetimes go through different forms of practice, where they stop doing certain actions as monks or whatever and look directly at the energy that is arising through meditation to de-wire the reactive habit patterns. Then... when one see's emptiness directly and dependent origination experientially, one can self liberate one's actions through non aggressive acceptance and non-denial as what arises is being released through the state of constant contemplation, rather than the mere intellectual and emotional excuse that... "this is natural." Marblehead, Everyone has their process, as you have yours and this lifetime is a Taoist examination of that process and I'm sure it is serving you well! Edited September 9, 2009 by Vajrahridaya Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted September 9, 2009 Marblehead, Everyone has their process, as you have yours and this lifetime is a Taoist examination of that process and I'm sure it is serving you well! Agree. And I do always try to remind my readers that when I an talking about the processes I utilize in my life that these are what works for me and they may well not work for anyone else. We each must walk our own journey. Each and every experience we have is unique and special to only that person who has had the expeience. As I have had many experiences that others have not, and others have had experiences I have not had, our journeys will necessarily be different. But, when our paths merge we can walk together for a while. Yeah, alas, I'm not a Buddhist. Hehehe. But oh! the wonder! I am a Taoist! (Sorry. I felt it necessary to make that statement.) But regarding the elimination of suffering, I think it is good that a person have a number of different ways of dealing with it. One way might work for one form of suffering but not for another so the person can use different means for dealing with the different forms of suffering in their life until they get to the point where they have eliminated all former suffering and have devised ways to prevent further suffering. Happy Trails! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Unconditioned Posted September 9, 2009 (edited) in the past i probably read into 'accept things as they are' in a similar way you did. now i would like to think of that as meaning accept things as they are good or bad without fixating on them and thereby not causing yourself perturbation. Chris, very good point. This 'philosophy' could be interpreted quite a few ways. "Accept things as they are" means accepting all things, not excluding or running from anything nor trying to add/grasp (which is also a form of exclusion). I actually find it extremely difficult to communicate what that means without it coming off as being nihilistic or extremely passive. Another way to put it may be "experiencing what is, in it's totality, with no resistance". This doesn't mean sit in a cave and do nothing. We can still take action, but we're not ignoring aspects of what is going on. For example, someone insults me. I am aware of my face turning red, a fluttery feeling in my stomach, my mind starts to race... I am also aware that what they are saying is truth... lets say they call me fat, and I am lol. I'm also aware of their compulsion to dominate, etc. etc. In feeling all of that, and accepting that it is happening, I am not resisting what is happening right now. If I don't want to believe that I'm fat, or if I pretend I'm not angry, then I am resisting what is happening at the current moment and will suffer either at that moment or in the future. In this case I may insult them back, which can lead to guilt, a sense of superiority, etc. which generally don't make me feel too good in the end... why I'm not specifically sure. Or I may pretend I'm not angry "Oh you're right, but I do love my cheeseburgers!"... then in the future when I see that person there may be hidden dislike/hatred towards them... even for exposing the truth. I think we suffer when: we think what is happening shouldn't be happening. Just my 2c... but thanks Chris for the comments... very good point. Edit: minor changes to the example... still struggling with how to explain what I mean... Edited September 9, 2009 by Unconditioned Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JustARandomPanda Posted September 9, 2009 (edited) interesting quote, what exactly does it mean to you? chris It's from t.s. elliott's poem The Hollow Men Between the Motion and the Act...falls the Shadow. It's pointing out the 'otherness' of the Shadow Chasm. All these words on TaoBums giving advice or from anywhere else for that matter...in the end...are still just words, not the Motion. And the Motion itself is a chasm away from the Act. That is not to say words have no meaning. It's just that apparently despite whether I may have true understanding of the advice there is still no guarantee it will help me make the jump of that Shadow Chasm...between the Motion and the Act...between the Idea to Reality...even though I've comprehended it quite well. That chasm..that shadow between will always be there. That is what elliott is pointing out I think. What does it mean to you, if any? You all seem to have figured out way more answers to life's triumphs and defeats than myself (which is a good thing!). Hats off to you all. Edited September 9, 2009 by SereneBlue Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Unconditioned Posted September 9, 2009 You all seem to have figured out way more answers to life's triumphs and defeats than myself (which is a good thing!). Hats off to you all. Boy do we have you fooled! Just ideas... signs painted with different shades and symbols. Some of the words may resonate or they may be useless. And in my case, personally, I have an extremely hard time of saying what I mean... so there tends to be a lot of words. It's like trying to describe a flavor. Without going too off topic, is there a difference between the idea and reality? Doesn't the idea take place in reality? I mean this in the sense that the idea is a real thing... that we label "idea"... and labels are real things too... but to see them for what they are, as they exist in reality, is different than to mistake a label for something other than a label. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JustARandomPanda Posted September 9, 2009 Without going too off topic, is there a difference between the idea and reality? Doesn't the idea take place in reality? I mean this in the sense that the idea is a real thing... that we label "idea"... and labels are real things too... but to see them for what they are, as they exist in reality, is different than to mistake a label for something other than a label. I have no answers to your question. They feel different to me (which is why Elliott's poem resonates with me so well) even though they both take place in 'reality' but then I'm not Enlightened and so could only give a Fool's answer - which is not something I think you're looking for. Far smarter and wiser people than myself - some of who've already posted in this thread - can likely answer them though. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted September 9, 2009 Far smarter and wiser people than myself - some of who've already posted in this thread - can likely answer them though. Hey! Give yourself some credit. At least you have identified some of your questions. A lot of people never get that far. The questions are what drive us on to continually look at ourself. I personally thing life would be really boring if we ever start thinking that we have all the answers. From one of the "Kung Fu" shows: "I don't expect to know all the answers, but I do try to understand the questions." Happy Trails! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
