The Tao Of Nietzsche

[Marblehead]

for sure a day without dancing is a wasted day.

and not only had he been possessed by zarathrustra

he may have had a wee bit of buddhist in him

"To live is to suffer, to survive is to find some meaning in the suffering. " FN

 

very spiritual dude this freddy

This post caused me to laugh. No, I cannot explain why. It just happened.

 

Edit to add:

 

Actually, I have already had a discussion regarding Nietzsche and Buddhism and I had to 'begrudgingly' agree that there really is a lot of Buddhism within Nietzsche's philosophy.

Edited February 15, 2012 by Marblehead

[zerostao]

where did that confounded post go??

Edited February 15, 2012 by zerostao

[Marblehead]

Well, if anyone causes this thread to go to the pits I will just start a new thread of the Tao of Nietzsche.

[zerostao]

Well, if anyone causes this thread to go to the pits I will just start a new thread of the Tao of Nietzsche.

 

 

you may have missed the missing post by Taomeow.

i think she has done this type of thing before

but in support of the Tao of nietzche

 

"suppose, finally, we succeeded in explaining our entire instinctive life as the development and ramification of one basic form of the will--namely, of the will to power, as my proposition has it... then one would have gained the right to determine all efficient force univocally as--will to power. the world viewed from inside... it would be "will to power" and nothing else."

from beyond good and evil

[Marblehead]

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

What a question! To understand the answer one must present it in two phases.

 

First, Zarathustra was the founder of the Zoroastrian religion. It is the oldest known mono-theistic religion. It was established in the area of the world now known as Iraq and Iran. The original religion had only one god, no devil. It was taught that we were created with free will and therefore we are totally responsible for all our thoughts and action while on Earth. The followers of Zarathustra could not handle the responsibility so after Zarathustra died the leaders of the religion created a devil that could be blamed whenever man did things that were not good. The religion is still practiced today in a few parts of the world in various form.

 

Second, it is the title of a novel written by Nietzsche. Nietzsche basically used Zarathustra as a vehicle to present an aspect of his philosophy. Many parallels can be found between the original religion and the concepts presented by Nietzsche in his novel. It was here where he first stated "God is dead." (A finger pointing to the killing of the orginal Zoroastrian one-God concept but also to the killing of the Jewish God by the Christians through the creation of a god with vastly different attributes.) It was here that he also developed his concept of the "Superman".

 

 

WHAT a thing... (mono)Theism... interewsting though, i have never heard of it before, always heard that christianity predated everything.... hahaha beats me!

[Marblehead]

WHAT a thing... (mono)Theism... interewsting though, i have never heard of it before, always heard that christianity predated everything.... hahaha beats me!

 

Yep. The Christians borrowed from the Jews and the Jews borrowed from the Zoroastrians. It all goes way back. Kinda like trying to define the origins of Taoism.

[zerostao]

Yep. The Christians borrowed from the Jews and the Jews borrowed from the Zoroastrians. It all goes way back. Kinda like trying to define the origins of Taoism.

 

and some folks drive cars named mazda.

interesting times around 5 th and 6th centuries bce

and in nietzche's own words about his

thus spoke zarathrusra

"This work stands alone. Do not let us mention the poets in the same breath; nothing perhaps had ever been produced out of such a superabundance of strength. If all the spirit and goodness of every great soul were collected together, the whole could not create a single one of Zarathustra's discourses. "

 

[Marblehead]

[JustARandomPanda]

"Insanity in individuals is something rare - but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule."

 

I do not see anything Taoist about this quote at all. Not in the least.

 

Insanity to me is specifically a disease of the brain. A very specific condition. "groups, parties, nations" won't have insanity unless the majority of it's members also actually have that disease.

 

In fact..Nietzsche sounds illogical here. Pretty strange quote for someone whom I understood to have personally suffered from a diseased brain himself that led to mental breakdown and death.

[Marblehead]

I do not see anything Taoist about this quote at all. Not in the least.

 

Insanity to me is specifically a disease of the brain. A very specific condition. "groups, parties, nations" won't have insanity unless the majority of it's members also actually have that disease.

 

In fact..Nietzsche sounds illogical here. Pretty strange quote for someone whom I understood to have personally suffered from a diseased brain himself that led to mental breakdown and death.

Hi SereneBlue,

 

To speak to the quote first: Yes, individual insanity can generally be attributed to a diseased brain, in some manner. I think that it is a valid statement that this disease is rare.

 

However, have you every seen mobs in action? Group insanity. Even at football or soccor games - group insanity. The point being made is that when people are in groups they will do things they normally would not do as they are less likely to be noticed, especially if all people around them are acting very wierd as well.

 

I think it relates well with Taoist philosophy and that is one of the reasons why Lao Tzu suggested that the ideal societies would be small villiages with everyone having something productive to do, with no desire to act insane and kill your neighbors because you wanted to expand you land ownership. Is that not to be considered insanity?

 

Yes, it is very likely that Nietzsche died from syphilis. In later stage the disease was indeed rotting his brain away as well as destroying other organs. His insanity was medical and during his time there was no cure for it.

 

He died in 1900 at the age of 55 and did not publish or even finish any work after 1888 because of his illness.

 

But then, I never suggest that Nietzsche was a Taoist, only that I do see similarities occasionally between his philosophy and Taoist philosophy.

[Aaron]

Hello Sereneblue,

 

I wanted to touch base on the whole insanity thing. I'm not entirely aware of what Nietzsche meant when he was comparing insanity in groups vs. the individual, but what I know from studying psychology is that insanity is based on culture, because the definitions of what constitutes insanity are based on cultural biases.

 

A man hears voices that tell him that evil spirits are causing the drought, he tells a doctor and the doctor consults the diagnostic statistical manual of mental disorders and find that the man fits the criteria for Schizophrenia. The man is put on a regiment of drugs to treat the disorder, drugs he'd rather not be on, but is essentially forced to take in order to fit into society and get treatment for his illness. Another man experiences the same thing, but lives within a tribe in South America. The tribe members are ecstatic, because this man has obviously been touched by the spirits/god/whatever. They have been told the cause of the drought. They look at the man, not as being dysfunctional or mentally ill, but as being blessed, in fact they treat him like he is special. This man never suffers from his condition, but rather is sought by others for advice and help because of his condition.

 

Wikipedia has this to say about mental disorders:

 

"A mental disorder or mental illness is a psychological pattern, potentially reflected in behavior, that is generally associated with distress or disability, and which is not considered part of normal development of a person's culture. Mental disorders are generally defined by a combination of how a person feels, acts, thinks or perceives. This may be associated with particular regions or functions of the brain or rest of the nervous system, often in a social context. The recognition and understanding of mental health conditions have changed over time and across cultures, and there are still variations in definition, assessment and classification, although standard guideline criteria are widely used. According to the World Health Organisation (WHO), over a third of people in most countries report problems at some time in their life which meet criteria for diagnosis of one or more of the common types of mental disorder."

 

When I read the above statement, which is what they teach you in Psychology 101, I see exactly what Nietzsche was talking about. Mental illness is something that is defined according to cultural perspective, so an individual cannot be defined as mentally ill, unless his behavior is contrary to society's mores and standards. This would lend one to believe that mental illness is not so much a biological condition as it is a cultural response to that condition. A person who is obsessive compulsive in the United States, could very well be perceived as fastidiously clean somewhere else. In the United States he/she may be encouraged to seek chemical treatment, but in another country they would most likely just ignore the person's idiosyncrasies.

 

As far as what this has to do with Tao, I think it comes back to the idea of Virtue. Chapter 38 of the Tao Teh Ching addresses this by saying:

 

Failing Tao, man resorts to Virtue.

Failing Virtue, man resorts to humanity.

Failing humanity, man resorts to morality.

Failing morality, man resorts to ceremony.

Now, ceremony is the merest husk of faith and loyalty;

It is the beginning of all confusion and disorder.

 

So essentially disorder occurs, not from a man's actions, but man's perceptions of those actions in a cultural context. The further wrapped up he becomes in culture and social mores, the more he finds himself trapped within that culture, hence mental illness is very rare in the individual, but common within the "groups, parties, and nations."

 

I hope your doing well,

 

Aaron

Edited February 17, 2012 by Twinner

[zerostao]

"Insanity in individuals is something rare - but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule."

 

it looks perfectly taoist to me. perfectly.

[zerostao]

thru nietzche's eyes his superman will trample on all the principles which hold good for the commom man.

the ordinary man which hangs out in the masses. nietzche's thought of an authentic universal is not assimilable as possible to the masses as such. it is this mass-man that nietzche rejects. for inspite of everything his superman is still tied up in a certain evolutionary dogmatism. there is no doubt at all that nietzche never granted at all that the superman could allow himself any license which would be denied to the ordinary man.

thus he has to show hardness becoz he is hard on himself in the most extreme degree. the superman has to face the upmost difficulty and danger. and from a certain point of view his superman in the mythological.

does not our own experiences show us that the masses naturally conform with all the sorts of various propaganda which are spread by ever more powerful methods?

propaganda itself is the favorite weapon of the false prophets and those who spread their doctrines.

for nietzche, transcendance is a going beyond. and this transcendance has a more precise meaning.

man is obliged to rise above himself.

and this takes a heroic effort and is not insanity.

[Marblehead]

Seems that I have a reader of Nietzsche in my presence. Hehehe.

 

Actually, I know there are a few here who have read Nietzsche and have a good understanding of what he was trying to show us.

 

Indeed, Nietzsche didn't care much for the 'herd mentality'.

 

I think this is why he created 'Superman'. To show us that it is possible to go "beyond good and evil" and yet "do the right thing" because we are constantly critical of our own actions and thoughts.

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

You know, the funny thing is I never read or studied Nietzsche and yet have had many people comment on how much i must know of his works.

 

 

 

I never even knew, for the longest time, that "that which does not kill me makes me stronger" was attributed to him, but used it occasionally in my comments and arguments online.

 

 

 

 

 

In face, in the T.A.O. thread, marbles comments all the same about my Nietzsche-like qualities, and yet it's all a matter of perspective and opinion that we share, not any research or reading on my part

 

 

 

 

I can attribute my words only to myself unless i specifically quote otherwise... and sometimes, my thoughts can be easily quoted to other individuals... but more often than not, they are my own, from my observations, from my experiences, but rarely from research.

[Marblehead]

Nice thoughts in that post Trend.

 

But then, how many of our thoughts are really our own original thoughts? I know that most, if not all, of my words are based on my beliefs and those beliefs have their base in what many others have already spoken of and to. But I still like to think that at least once a year I have an original thought.

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

WELL......

 

 

If we go from a perspective that "all that is, has been, and will be again." and work from that to include that all spiritual/soul/metaphysical mind/??? aspects are eternal, as Tao, THEN... there is no originality ever, it's all here, at all times, in all forms, in all places... Relativity...

 

 

 

 

SO... when i give that little speech of what i say comes from me, i DO mean to say that it is 'taken' from my perceptions, perspectives, observations, and learnings, but it is by my interpretations, not something necessarily given to me, or taken from someone/thing.

 

 

 

 

We're all on borrowed existence, and lend to all... our own.

[Marblehead]

Fred said: The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently.

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

Special Fred?

[Marblehead]

Special Fred?

Yeah, he was special. Of course, you are too but in a different way.

[zerostao]

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

[Protector]

[Marblehead]

I think that was a bit of a misquote of Fred in that cartoon. Hehehe. It was funny though.