Better than full lotus

[ngtest]

Hello members of Tao Bums,

 

Some of you have experience of long sitting in full lotus and also of spring forest qigong.

 

Can you comment on the efficacy of the following practice:

 

 

The bound lotus is the next stage after full lotus. First sit in full lotus then cross your arms behind the back and hold the right foot with the right hand and the left foot with the left hand and bow down touching the floor with your forehead. It is easier to do this touching the floor with the forehead than sitting straight. when sitting straight you do jalandhara banda also.

 

Yogi Bhajan , a kundalini yoga master has said that one who does this position for 31minutes continuously at least masters this position and can affect his environment by his mere presence, that he becomes strong like iron inside and radiant like the sun outside. Some hold it for one hour. It has special healing abilities, especially for the legs.

 

Just thought some people here would be interested to know unless you know already.

But this pose is relatively hard.

Does anyone know it?

[Machin Shin]

Yes

[Sloppy Zhang]

Honestly, sometimes I wonder if some of this stuff isn't just a group of contortionists pulling practical jokes on the meditation community......

 

"if you bend over backwards and slide your head between your legs, you can connect your lower chakras directly to the higher chakras, so you can effectively jump energy right to the crown chakra. Of course, this is made even more powerful if you can do this upside down while interlocking your fingers and toes. You can roll down the stairs to add a movement portion....."

[松永道]

I have a serious yogi friend who could sit in this position for more than a half-hour.. and he messed his legs up after doing this position for a number of months. He studies Yoga in the tradition of Yogi Bhajan and had a teacher's supervision.

 

Not to knock the practice, I'm a big advocate of full-lotus meditation. Just a word of caution.

[Zhuo Ming-Dao]

Hello members of Tao Bums,

 

Some of you have experience of long sitting in full lotus and also of spring forest qigong.

 

Can you comment on the efficacy of the following practice:

The bound lotus is the next stage after full lotus. First sit in full lotus then cross your arms behind the back and hold the right foot with the right hand and the left foot with the left hand and bow down touching the floor with your forehead. It is easier to do this touching the floor with the forehead than sitting straight. when sitting straight you do jalandhara banda also.

 

Yogi Bhajan , a kundalini yoga master has said that one who does this position for 31minutes continuously at least masters this position and can affect his environment by his mere presence, that he becomes strong like iron inside and radiant like the sun outside. Some hold it for one hour. It has special healing abilities, especially for the legs.

 

Just thought some people here would be interested to know unless you know already.

But this pose is relatively hard.

Does anyone know it?

 

I can do the bound lotus comfortably, and I have done it for extended periods of time. For me, it was not hard at all. Some one told me about it after seeing me sitting in the complete butterfly pose (butterfly with both knees flat on the ground, heels to the groin, and head on the ground with back straight). He asked if I could do the bound lotus, explained it to me, and I did it easily. So the question on difficulty really depends on how flexible one already is in their hip joints.

 

All of that said, I have not noticed anything special about sitting in any of these positions, even for hours at a time. Sure, it alters the energy flow, but so do plenty of easier asanas. I use full lotus for 25 minute or shorter zazen sessions, because after doing it for a few years I found that I prefer to save my legs and use the half-lotus when I want to sit for long periods of time. I just got tired of having my legs fall dead asleep during those longer sessions and having to spend so much time waiting for them to come back to life. The bound lotus, I think, is just more of a party favor. It doesn't even give a good stretch really... and if it did, it would probably mean that you are not ready for it because it would be putting too much pressure on your knees. Use the butterfly if you want to build flexibility in the hips.

 

 

In short, I do not think this made me particularly "strong like iron inside and radiant like the sun outside," but then, maybe there is supposed to be some special energy technique to go along with it that I am missing out on.

Edited September 8, 2009 by Zhuo Ming-Dao

[ngtest]

Zhuo Ming-Dao,

 

Continue using full lotus in meditation because the legs falling dead asleep during those longer sessions is a symptom of chi trying to open the channels I think. If you persevere and meditate they will open.

 

It is said in the book Tao and Longevity by Master Nan Huai Chin.

Edited September 8, 2009 by ngtest

[Gerard]

There is a lot of myth surrounding the full lotus stance. For Asians works good, not so much with Westerners.

[松永道]

There is a lot of myth surrounding the full lotus stance. For Asians works good, not so much with Westerners.

 

That statement is no more true than saying Baguazhang is for Asians, Wrestling is for Westerners.

 

That said, I find lotus to be a very tonifying position and plain old cross-legged sitting to be more reducing. Westerners, mainly due to diet and lifestyle, need more reducing on average than say Chinese or Indian. Of course, the Asians have other good habits going for them like squat-pooping from a young age (much more reducing than sit-pooping).

 

The real myth is the notion of an ideal position for everyone. Different people, different karma, different stages of practice - different rules.

[voidisyinyang]

I'll just post this as my response since I touch on the full-lotus in here quite a bit -- but the Master Nan, Huai-chin reference is key -- real meditation doesn't start till AFTER the body is filled with electromagnetic fields and nirvikalpa samadhi is achieved called the "Emptiness" is Taoism. Master Wang, Liping states that very few studetnts actually open up the small universe! That's what he means -- Master Nan says the same thing that right beforehand the spiritual powers are used and the modern practicioner falls back into mundane reality - into worldliness. So the spiritual and the material really can't mix as Master Nan states.

 

It's VERY RARE to find an energy master that can give real transmission and such a master will be able to sit in full-lotus for as long as they want -- Chunyi Lin says this is the easiest way to see if someone is a master -- and as I write below it's based on complementary opposites harmonics (be it Tai Chi, Small Universe or Full-lotus). Based on complementary opposite harmonics the full-lotus is the Tetrahedron which is the simplest 3 dimensional form resonance of the 2-3-4 (Yang-yin-emptiness) harmonics. I rely on the full-lotus not only to heal myself but to heal others -- and in fact in the "macrocosmic orbit" reality is merged outside of the body so indeed the energy affects each other through walls, ceilings, long-distance.

 

The consciousness or "empty awareness" is always-already the "eternal nature" referred to in Taoist Yoga: Alchemy and Immortality trans. by Charles Luk. I highly recommend that book.

 

Australia! I just read Sean Condon's amazing travel book on Australia -- thanks for reminding me of his book since I want to read his other books! haha. I rely on the public libraries, public food assistance, dumpster-diving, biking, and public park bathroom facilities, while working part-time at an environmental nonprofit lobbying political office and living in my sister's basement for below-market price. haha.

 

So I'm a true Taobum! But I rely on http://springforestqigong.com for my spiritual assistance -- Chunyi Lin spent a month in a cave in full-lotus padmasana with no food, no water and NO SLEEP! He now heals patients referred to him by the Mayo Clinic here in Minnesota -- considered the top hospital in the world. He does phone healings as well. So Chunyi Lin is an amazing qigong master and his assistant Jim Nance is the first African-American qigong master, formerly a black belt in karate and he's traveled the world studying shamanism and then practiced zen before meeting Chunyi Lin. He's the real Morpheus! haha.

 

I started posting online at http://gnn.tv where I posted my http://nonduality.com/hempel.htm -- expose on the Actual Matrix Plan. Then I discovered that Daniel Pinchbeck had a website http://breakingopenthehead.com so I tested psychotropics with my qigong training -- that was INTENSE. haha. That site is pretty inactive but Daniel is now at http://realitysandwich.com where I post. I also moved into the conspiracy websites -- and I post at a UK forum http://conspiracycentral.net.

 

I've been banned from close to 10 websites (but first my email activist daily update list was wiped out by my University's administration because of my activism! That was 10 years ago though! haha) -- banned from all the science blogs by fellow Minnesotan -- biology professor PZ Myers -- he posts on SEED, the website for science blogs. Banned from http://unexplained-mysteries.com for bringing up the "tantric" aspects of paranormal. haha.

 

I do have several articles published at http://mind-energy.net (for free) about "psychic music" -- one called "Against Archytas" and my masters thesis from 2001 is linked plus with another interview in spanish at http://mondopsicotronico.net and I have an article at http://viewzone.com called "The BioMusic Conspiracy" which has a nice aboriginal graphic posted by the webmaster Dan Eden.

 

I just got banned from http://ufomystic.com -- well not really but Greg Bishop posted on my blog http://naturalresonancerevolution.blogspot.com as a joke since he already told me to stop posting comments longer than his blog posts! haha. http://rigint.blogspot.com Jeff Wells is an awesome Canadian author published by http://trineday.com -- I highly recommend his book Rigorous Intuition. All the authors from Kris Millegan's conspiracy bookhouse out of Oregon are excellent -- Daniel Hopsicker, Peter Levenda, etc.

 

One of the Danel Pinchbeck posters moved my "psychic music" discussion over to http://webofmimicry.com which is an alternative music band promoter/recording website getting a lot of European readers. I've posted there alot and had quite a bit of critical analysis of my work.

 

Math Professor Joe Mazur encouraged me to further my research on Archytas and recommended I submit my work to a top math journal! haha. I was first published though by infamous Reptilian Exposer David Icke and readers at his site have continued to post my writing -- after that it's all "up hill!" haha. My old "blogbook" http://mothershiplanding.blogspot.com is archived at David Icke's forum -- half of it -- the second half is from my old http://gnn.tv blog.

 

I just started posting at the "top" conspiracy website http://abovetopsecret.com which has had new threads on psychic music and paranormal healing -- plus they have some great videos on the CIA and the Mafia. http://paranoiamagazine.com almost published an article by me -- http://conspiracyjournal.com has a new book publishing company and email list that I receive and I just listened to http://theparacast.com interview with Curt Sutherly. I'm currently reading several books from titles I gleaned from those videos! http://dailygrail.com from Australia is a must-read -- Greg Taylor has his own online publishing company and has followed the Dan Brown success. http://anomalist.com is where Patrick Hughye the science anomaly writer has worked with Loren Coleman the cryptid author -- they've linked my research as well. Another book publishing website combo plus there's a video site. http://disinfo.com is another awesome book publishing website combo.

 

I've been listening to http://coasttocoastam.com almost nightly as well -- and I've sent them my research a bit since both George Noory and Ian Punnett have close ties to Minnesota. Another fascinating Minnesota writer and healer is http://transcendentdreaming.com

 

Various forums have discussed my research online and sometimes I'll post a response with a follow-up dialog, etc. http://brainsturbator.com is one site like that which is quite interesting. http://martialdevelopment.com just did an interview with me but I was extra weird so that probably won't get published! haha. I've submitted to several publishers over the years and have had some interest but mostly I would need to do all the work ahead of time -- write the book first.

 

I might do that but I like the flow of dialog better -- like Socrates! http://tribe.net had some discussion on tantra and 2012 that got pretty heavy! haha. My take on 2012 is that it's from the Tetrad of Pythagoras which means the "space" between the numbers are not even -- 1 + 1 does equal 2. This is from noncommutative geometry of Alain Connes who states that music is the best model to understand quantum chaos and that the future will be increasingly schizoid since it's like playing a whole orchestra at the same time in your brain.

 

I've done that -- Orchestratal Training -- where you sit at the piano and "translate" -- read a line of music but play music that is several notes higher or lower -- and translate a dozen lines of music at the same time. I did that in high school! It's a real brain twister! haha. So when we go deep into music "time" no longer exists and being awake becomes a "dream" again -- it's the song lines of the aborigines.

 

The OHM of the Digeradoo is the heart chakra -- it's the sound equivalent of the Tai-Chi Rainbowsnake symbol -- the complementary opposites of reality -- time is asymmetric as a spiral -- the future is predicted in the present -- there are different layers of time that are coterminous and which bend space. Nature is in control and no "one" is listening -- but the method of this madness -- the panic of Pan's Pipes -- is the "small universe" chakras along the outside of the body.

 

I recommend the Level 1 Sitting Meditation c.d. from http://springforestqigong.com since it's only $11 or so and has the small universe training but there's also a "small universe" c.d. and the book "Taoist Yoga: Alchemy and Immortality" trans. by Charles Luk is focused solely on the small universe training with great detailed and advanced knowledge. Also the book "Nothing Ever Happens" -- the biography of H.W.L. Poonja by David Godman is an excellent 3 volume description of the skills and experiences of the highest level of spiritual energy master. Papaji or Poonjaji was the top student of Ramana Maharshi in the Dravidian culture of Southern India.

 

Here's my latest rant reply to Jeff Well's new blogspot:

 

Jeff -- Glad to HEAR your new blog emphasizes "psychic music" again.

 

The "Old Ones" refers to constipation in my opinion. Newton discovered gravity while a huge pile of shit accumulated in the basement of his house and it was believed at the time that the fumes of shit were protection against the plague. Similar to hydrogen sulfide from garlic I guess.

 

The whole paranormal physics scene with it's "quantum noise" is good for a mind fuck but doesn't open up Bataille's Solar Ass-Eye of the Brain, a la Michael Taussig's brilliant analysis. Luckily shit is now being turned into electricity via bacteria that ionize the protons and electrons.

 

The secret to sound is that when the brain goes into alpha waves ultrasound is produced as well -- the bone resonance for piezoelectricity. The biophysics book "Magic of the Senses" details how humans can hear ultrasound -- but only WITHIN their brain (hence the subjective trickster nature of psychic music and paranormal politics). It's the same tone as the highest pitch you can hear externally only focused internally.

 

The MALE PGYMY CHIMP, rhythmically rattling percussive sticks as its most common show of aggression for the peaceful, matrifocal primates, hardly ever ejaculates yet has sex all the time -- just "pulling it out" before "losing the load." Professor Sapolsky documents that the stress sympathetic nervous system is activated right at ejaculation but up till then the relaxation vagus nerve is activated. The female climax is through the vagus nerve.

 

The vagus nerve when IONIZED BY ULTRASOUND transduces serotonin and anaerobic (shit) from the lower body into the brain. Sapolsky's mentor, Kummer's book "The Tangled Wing" details how ionization enables bypassing the blood-brain barrier. The bacteria is ionized and the hormone via ionization from ultrasound turns into neurotransmitter and via melatonin turns into DMT. Light is then created via the pineal gland that then bends spacetime as a laser for holographic healing energy. This is regulated by the female lunar cycle with the electromagnetic energy 10 times stronger during the full moon.

 

Sound activates the electrochemical lunar energy stored in the lower body which again is ionized by the ultrasound but the frequency resonance whereby amplitude of the body is increased as higher harmonic overtones are listened to is the paradox of quantum chaos (noise). Aka the time-frequency uncertainty principle. The trickster of time.

[Nanashi]

Wow, you have an amazing blog.

 

"As Master Nan, Huai-chin details the Japanese lost the body transformation through the full-lotus. The Japanese got caught up in conceptual consciousness with poetry, literature and mind yoga."

 

I suppose I've been "stuck" there for a while, after considering Japanese poets (Basho, Saigyo, Ryokan and et cetera) to be the highest examples of human consciousness. Reading your work has given me new insight.

 

(addendum:)

 

When people think of their own station in life, they have feelings of happiness or depression; but when humanity at large is meditated upon-- the human condition, geared by the greed of the top 1% and the apathy or misguided passions of the bourgeoisie, what outlet exists to find sanity (when trying to awaken the blind is so difficult) besides writing poems of pathos that connect to that Eternal Mind? Even though it reeks of the "shikata ga nai" mentality, it makes for good therapy. I also place importance on the ultimate truth of reality, known to ascended masters and sought by all Seekers.

 

One cannot deny conspiracies exist to control and manipulate the masses; your efforts to discover and expose these "secrets": I can appreciate.

Edited September 8, 2009 by Nanashi

[Zhuo Ming-Dao]

Zhuo Ming-Dao,

 

Continue using full lotus in meditation because the legs falling dead asleep during those longer sessions is a symptom of chi trying to open the channels I think. If you persevere and meditate they will open.

 

It is said in the book Tao and Longevity by Master Nan Huai Chin.

 

Thanks for the advice. I will happily look into this book. When you say "persevere and meditate," is there anything in particular that I should do in addition, like directing chi through my legs while sitting, or should I just keep with my zazen and hope it clears on its own?

[Gerard]

That statement is no more true than saying Baguazhang is for Asians, Wrestling is for Westerners.

 

I don't practice full lotus and have reached aranhant level. What I meant is that this position is generally speaking awkward for Westerners due to their genetics in terms of kwa flexibility, tendon and bone porosity. However some Westerners, Yin in nature (for instance someone born in the Year of the Ox or the Mouse) find it easier because of their inherent flexibility.

 

Practicing Bagua has got nothing to do with a severely static position; the nature of constant change represented by Bagua is far superior to the immobility that full lotus entails.

[ngtest]

Thanks for the advice. I will happily look into this book. When you say "persevere and meditate," is there anything in particular that I should do in addition, like directing chi through my legs while sitting, or should I just keep with my zazen and hope it clears on its own?

 

 

If you keep with your zazen and do your best every day it is sure to clear on its own. Better not interfere with the process, except if you know instructions from a Master. Oh, by the way if you manage to open somewhat the leg channels you will feel a kind of freshness and connectedness-pleasant! Master Nan says even euphoria which becomes stronger and stronger, then you don't want to leave the lotus!

[Eviander]

My opinion on the reason that westerners have a harder time sitting in full lotus for extended periods of time is the problem of sex appeal that promotes the tensing of the lower abdominal muscles for the image of "toned abs"

 

See here is the archetype image of Buddha in lotus

 

 

See how he has a relaxed belly and face..I would see this would allow the thighs to be more comfortable and stable to sit in such a position for 2 hours plus.

 

as opposed to the westerner

 

 

This one, who obviously has some tension in the lower abdominal muscles and thighs..I would assume it would be much less comfortable to hold this position for 2 hours plus..

 

This is just my opinion of course..but personally I cannot even do the lotus position at all ..I've heard it is the most comfortable meditation posture once you are able to stay in it stably..thus I have much work to do..

[ngtest]

I've heard it is the most comfortable meditation posture once you are able to stay in it stably

 

Once you have learned it well, other postures are just not an option. It is absolutely the best.

[CarsonZi]

I personally find that I miss the perineum stimulation that is an effect of siddhasana when I sit in padmasana. I prefer siddhasana for pranayam especially. It was a little sexually stimulating during meditation for a while, but that was just a phase, and now I only use siddhasana. Personal preference nothing more.

 

Love,

Carson

[ngtest]

Zhuo Ming-Dao,

 

I forgot to say that when chi channels are really opening it is accompanied by much pain.

That's why you have pain if you sit for long in full lotus and not if you sit for little.

[voidisyinyang]

I can sit in full-lotus for hours on end -- as a local cafe owner told me less than a year ago. The secret is having mutual climaxes with people around me -- only the internal climax stops the pain! haha. The depth of trance intensifies though, as does the love with the heart chakra opening up.

 

The photo above -- when I saw it I laughed because I was in full-lotus when I saw it and I'm at the computer, not in some pretty place -- but both my feet are fully up on my thighs. That's what you really need -- as Chunyi Lin says at first the full-lotus is not as steep and then you can increase the pressure as you go.

 

The real secret is the small universe -- Mantak Chia's very first book on Awakening the Energy of the Tao plus Charles Luk's "Taoist Yoga: Alchemy and Immortality" -- both are just on the microcosmic orbit. Then once the macrocosmic orbit is achieved it's a free energy open system through the pineal gland.

[Luca]

I can manage 22 minutes of Full Lotus and i'm adding 1 or 2 minutes everyday but i wonder if it's even worth to work my way up to lets say 2 hrs. Because when you say you can sit hours non stop once you have opened the pineal gland then isnt it a waste of time or is it still helpful or even better to keep practising it? I personally like Full Lotus because in no other position i can sit as straight AND comfortable as in Full Lotus. Also Chunyi Lin says on his audio tape of Level Two that if you can sit in Full Lotus for 2 hours that you will fell like current is running through your legs and opens up the channels in the legs... has maybe someone here experienced something like that?

[voidisyinyang]

Well I've taken bathroom breaks -- otherwise I've been in full-lotus since about 10:30 -- that makes 5 hours. Time flys when you're having fun -- and yes I've had several "O at a Ds" -- which means that electromagnetic energy is sucked out of my pineal gland into people around me who need it while I suck in their disharmonized extra energy -- electrochemical energy -- up through my lower body. This happens through the vagus nerve and then as the heart chakra opens up the energy flows more through the central channel.

[baloneyx]

Zhuo Ming-Dao,

 

Continue using full lotus in meditation because the legs falling dead asleep during those longer sessions is a symptom of chi trying to open the channels I think. If you persevere and meditate they will open.

 

It is said in the book Tao and Longevity by Master Nan Huai Chin.

It seems more like a case of no good blood circulation to me :S

 

I'm not a master, but I wouldn't advise leaving your legs numb for an hour or so, seems silly to me

[松永道]

It seems more like a case of no good blood circulation to me :S

 

I'm not a master, but I wouldn't advise leaving your legs numb for an hour or so, seems silly to me

 

You do alter blood circulation.

 

Full lotus in combination with proper neck posture causes the majority of blood in the system to circulate through the trunk and internal organs. Additionally lotus will build the small capillaries in the legs due to obstruction of the femoral artery.

 

As for the Kuo/Hips, I had terrible flexibility when I began, I could barely sit in regular cross-legged position. For the majority of people, westerners included, opening the Kuo is a matter of patience and equanimity to pain sensation. Though I think for fat people with legs like tree trunks, it might be prohibitively difficult.

[baloneyx]

You do alter blood circulation.

 

Full lotus in combination with proper neck posture causes the majority of blood in the system to circulate through the trunk and internal organs. Additionally lotus will build the small capillaries in the legs due to obstruction of the femoral artery.

 

As for the Kuo/Hips, I had terrible flexibility when I began, I could barely sit in regular cross-legged position. For the majority of people, westerners included, opening the Kuo is a matter of patience and equanimity to pain sensation. Though I think for fat people with legs like tree trunks, it might be prohibitively difficult.

yeah but isnt cutting it to any part of the body for extended periods unhealthy?

 

"Your foot falling asleep for 10 minutes doesn't pose any health threat, but if you were to cut off circulation for an extended period of time -- several hours -- you could suffer serious nerve damage"

info from http://health.howstuffworks.com/question552.htm

 

now what several hours means i dont know

 

I still think changing circulation, and cutting it significantly for extend periods of time arent the same.

 

Do all the lotus users legs fall asleep??

 

Mine do, but I thought it was cause I needed to get a bit more flexible

[gendao]

My opinion on the reason that westerners have a harder time sitting in full lotus for extended periods of time is the problem of sex appeal that promotes the tensing of the lower abdominal muscles for the image of "toned abs"

 

See here is the archetype image of Buddha in lotus

 

See how he has a relaxed belly and face..I would see this would allow the thighs to be more comfortable and stable to sit in such a position for 2 hours plus.

 

This one, who obviously has some tension in the lower abdominal muscles and thighs..I would assume it would be much less comfortable to hold this position for 2 hours plus..

Well, that dude is also sitting on a rock, and you can even see the rock digging into his shin. What ridiculous things people will do for a cool photo op, lol. Bet he couldn't hold that actual pose there for more than 2 minutes...

 

Anyhow, if your hamstrings and hip sockets are tight, it will be hard to keep your lower back vertical - and it will take ab tension to do so.

 

What you need to do is be able to rotate your legs "backwards" in your hip sockets. So, the best stretch for full lotus is probably the wide leg stretch.

(For our purposes, she should also be working on counter-rotating her toes back too.)

 

The closer you can get your torso flat to the ground, the less pressure will you have on your legs in full lotus. I've been doing this for a month & a half now, and it's made half lotus far more bearable now - taking a lot of pressure off my knees, thighs & ankles (where it doesn't belong). I can see it being a very comfortable, structurally-optimized pose, ONCE you get the hip & hamstring flexibility so there's little to no pressure...

Edited September 10, 2009 by vortex

[ngtest]

Also Chunyi Lin says on his audio tape of Level Two that if you can sit in Full Lotus for 2 hours that you will fell like current is running through your legs and opens up the channels in the legs... has maybe someone here experienced something like that?

 

Yes, I have experienced this. I can sit in full lotus for 2hours and a half with little pain only. For me now the pain begins after 2 hours and then the channels begin to open. Once I did 3 hours full lotus non stop and endured all the pain and when I released my legs they felt so fresh and connected and as I walked I had a very pleasant feeling like my legs were new!

Have in mind that in the past I couldn't sit in full lotus more than an hour, but with training now I can sit easily for 2:30 hours.

But also know that sitting 3 hours in full lotus does not mean that you have completely opened the leg channels, only partially. To open fully you need good meditation.