If you had the chance what would you say?

[Stigweard]

Part of my invitation requirements to The 1st International Summit on Laozi and Daoist Culture is to compose and present a 5-10 page academic paper that is in tune with the overall theme of the Summit.

 

I am choosing to write about the challenges we modern Western Daoists face in getting to the "heart" of Daoist Culture and what solutions could be found to overcome these obstacles. So....

 

"If you were standing in front of a hundred or so of leading Daoist teachers and luminaries from China and across the globe and you had five minutes to give your suggestions on how they could make the authentic Daoist teachings more accessible to us in the West, exactly what would you say?"

 

I would love your contributions to this so that I can represent us all as best as I can.

 

[Wayfarer64]

For me at this time it is the aspect of dynamic change -so apparent and strong and real in our lives that needs to be addressed.

 

The shock of the new -to borrow a phrase...

 

When I was a kid there were no personal computers. TV was black & white... One could find quiet places in the world. As a 4 year old vegitarian -I had to go back to meat, as there was not enough understanding of how to deal with a young vegetarians' diet back then (1958)...

 

that is all different now!

 

The world-wide aspect of all culture and how we in the West may have "warped" Taosit thinking seems unimportant to me ... because we are simply on a path that has opened us up to Taoist thought. I think this should be the beginning of a new way, maybe even a changed way for Taoism to be understood...

[mattmiddleton]

I wont state here what i would 'say' - here's but a few loose thoughts i have.

Yes, I think Daoism as a way-of-life and attitude must be applied to these times, and, in all honesty, simple living along Daoist lines (and buddhist - any quietist non-theistic philosophy etc) may very well be the only way to live in a post-oil future. So, perhaps, Lao Tzu's little tome (and the many, many other daoist texts) may hold the key to our longevity as a species..Maybe this very topical and urgent concept should be discussed in the conference. Maybe. And so, to speak to the heart of the west as it is now with all these future scenarios, perhaps daoism could be presented as a kind of non-threatening, non-theistic lifestyle with true world-altering power and enviro-political wisdom.. ??

Or, maybe we could get a famous rock-star or actor to say, 'im a daoist'. ha ha . sorry.

 

enjoy the conference, wish i could come to it man

Edited September 11, 2009 by mattmiddleton

[Stigweard]

I wont state here what i would 'say' - here's but a few loose thoughts i have.

Yes, I think Daoism as a way-of-life and attitude must be applied to these times, and, in all honesty, simple living along Daoist lines (and buddhist - any quietist non-theistic philosophy etc) may very well be the only way to live in a post-oil future. So, perhaps, Lao Tzu's little tome (and the many, many other daoist texts) may hold the key to our longevity as a species..Maybe this very topical and urgent concept should be discussed in the conference. Maybe. And so, to speak to the heart of the west as it is now with all these future scenarios, perhaps daoism could be presented as a kind of non-threatening, non-theistic lifestyle with true world-altering power and enviro-political wisdom.. ??

Or, maybe we could get a famous rock-star or actor to say, 'im a daoist'. ha ha . sorry.

 

enjoy the conference, wish i could come to it man

Cheers for that. I agree with your comments

[Mal]

If you had the chance what would you say?

 

Mal, would say nothing he would listen, so I can't help you here Stig I'm out of my depth. Looking forward to the ideas in http://www.thetaobums.com/What-is-the-BIGG...sts-t11426.html

hopefully I'll think of something

[thelerner]

What things should I keep foremost in my mind?

 

 

Michael

[Encephalon]

[Tao99]

First I would study the current situation ......

 

 

China to Build Harmonious Society with Wisdom of Taoism

 

(Xinhua News Agency April 23, 2007)

http://www.china.org.cn/culture/2007-04/23...ent_1208446.htm

 

China's high-ranking officials have called for adopting the wisdom of ancient Taoism to build a harmonious society.

 

Daodejing, or the Classic of the Way and Virtue, was written by Lao Zi about 2,500 years ago, around the time when Buddha was expounding the Dharma in India and Pythagoras was teaching in Greece.

 

"It is not only a precious gem in the treasure house of Chinese culture but a common spiritual wealth of the mankind," said China's senior official Jia Qinglin at a congratulatory message to the International Forum on Daodejing, which started Sunday in Xi'an, capital of northwest China's Shaanxi Province.

 

The principle of being modest and peaceful in the book would provide an inspiring reference to China's ongoing construction of a harmonious society, said Jia, chairwoman of the National Committee of the Chinese People's Political Consultative Conference (CPPCC).

 

Daodejing has influenced the Chinese people generation after generation, as well as people of different countries, races, nationalities and languages, he added.

 

"Today, in the 21st century, the ancient concepts and views of Daodejing still have important values," said Liu Yandong, vice chairwoman of the CPPCC National Committee.

 

As one of the important classics of Chinese traditional culture, Daodejing manifests a great profundity of thought contained in pithy remarks.

 

The book, consisting of only 5,000 characters, is a reflection of the lofty aspiration of the Chinese nation for amiability, happiness and harmony, said Liu.

 

The forum, jointly sponsored by Chinese Taoism Association and China Religious Culture Communication Association, will be held from April 22 to 27 in Xi'an and Hong Kong.

 

Involving 300 delegates from 17 countries and regions, it has been the first international forum of its kind that China has organized for the last 50 years.

----------------------------------------------

Edited September 13, 2009 by Tao99

[Encephalon]

First I would study the current situation ......

China to Build Harmonious Society with Wisdom of Taoism

 

(Xinhua News Agency April 23, 2007)

http://www.china.org.cn/culture/2007-04/23...ent_1208446.htm

 

China's high-ranking officials have called for adopting the wisdom of ancient Taoism to build a harmonious society.

 

Daodejing, or the Classic of the Way and Virtue, was written by Lao Zi about 2,500 years ago, around the time when Buddha was expounding the Dharma in India and Pythagoras was teaching in Greece.

 

"It is not only a precious gem in the treasure house of Chinese culture but a common spiritual wealth of the mankind," said China's senior official Jia Qinglin at a congratulatory message to the International Forum on Daodejing, which started Sunday in Xi'an, capital of northwest China's Shaanxi Province.

 

The principle of being modest and peaceful in the book would provide an inspiring reference to China's ongoing construction of a harmonious society, said Jia, chairwoman of the National Committee of the Chinese People's Political Consultative Conference (CPPCC).

 

Daodejing has influenced the Chinese people generation after generation, as well as people of different countries, races, nationalities and languages, he added.

 

"Today, in the 21st century, the ancient concepts and views of Daodejing still have important values," said Liu Yandong, vice chairwoman of the CPPCC National Committee.

 

As one of the important classics of Chinese traditional culture, Daodejing manifests a great profundity of thought contained in pithy remarks.

 

The book, consisting of only 5,000 characters, is a reflection of the lofty aspiration of the Chinese nation for amiability, happiness and harmony, said Liu.

 

The forum, jointly sponsored by Chinese Taoism Association and China Religious Culture Communication Association, will be held from April 22 to 27 in Xi'an and Hong Kong.

 

Involving 300 delegates from 17 countries and regions, it has been the first international forum of its kind that China has organized for the last 50 years.

----------------------------------------------

 

What an inspiring piece of good news!

 

The idea that an enlightended Taoist population can generally be self-regulating without State coercion has been discussed elsewhere. Given the traditional suspicions that Chinese politicians once held for their Taoist citizens, there is genuine reason to rejoice at with this news. Wouldn't it be astonishing if Chinese authoritarianism ultimately gave way to the historical trinity of Confucianism, Taoism, and Buddhism?

 

Now, if the Chinese can figure out how to spare their environment and transcend their function as the world's provider of wage slavery, they may get a shot at a viable world model. The world is already indebted to the wisdom Chinese culture has contributed.

 

Thank you for sharing this.

[goldisheavy]

I would ask them if there are any more texts as profound as Chuang Tzu/Zhuangzi, and if yes, to please translate them to English. The problem is that from what I have seen, there are a lot of, what I would consider, trash texts in Taoism. The quality is very uneven. I love Zhuangzi the best, and nothing else quite matches it for me.

[Tao99]

What an inspiring piece of good news!

 

The idea that an enlightended Taoist population can generally be self-regulating without State coercion has been discussed elsewhere. Given the traditional suspicions that Chinese politicians once held for their Taoist citizens, there is genuine reason to rejoice at with this news. Wouldn't it be astonishing if Chinese authoritarianism ultimately gave way to the historical trinity of Confucianism, Taoism, and Buddhism?

 

Now, if the Chinese can figure out how to spare their environment and transcend their function as the world's provider of wage slavery, they may get a shot at a viable world model. The world is already indebted to the wisdom Chinese culture has contributed.

 

Thank you for sharing this.

 

Exactly, I thought the same - it's huge awesome that the government is now allowing and facilitating Taoism in China.

 

And you raise valid points about how they are going to solve these problems and 'build a harmonious society' by adopting Taoist wisdom. Here's an article where you can see them beginning to formulate their modern theory.

 

 

Harmony the Essence of Chinese Culture, Says Scholar

 

(Xinhua News Agency April 26, 2007)

http://www.china.org.cn/english/daodeforum/209429.htm

 

"'Harmony' is the great gift the Chinese nation offers to the world," said leading Chinese scholar Ji Xianlin at the ongoing International Forum on Daodejing, one of the world's classic philosophical texts.

 

The 96-year-old professor from Peking University made the remarks on a videotape screened at the meeting.

 

According to Ji, Chinese culture can be described in different ways, but "in terms of religious belief, it consists of three parts: Confucianism, Taoism and Buddhism."

 

Ji said China had promoted the concept of harmony since ancient times and "in this day and age, we are again putting forward the great idea of 'harmony'."

 

"We hope the whole world can accept this idea so that our global village can become more peaceful," he said.

 

"Distances are contracting in our global village but problems are growing. Why?" asked the professor.

 

"Because the world has been following the law of the jungle instead of seeking harmony," he said.

 

"China's notion of harmony will help people all over the world understand, respect and love each other and stop fighting," he said.

 

The professor also said that people should co-exist peacefully with nature rather than "conquering it".

 

"Humans should have a relationship with nature that stresses friendship, equality and mutual respect," he said. "It's wrong to say one should conquer the other."

--------------------------------

 

Are we witnessing the birth of the essence of the New Party Line in the 21st century -- Chinese leaders drawing on ancient cultural traditions, for the ancient cultural purpose of 'building a harmonious society'?

 

Can we call this the Chinese Government's "General Theory of Harmony"?

 

Can they use this adoption of ancient Chinese culture to get a shot at a viable world model? Will it conflict with some of their goals, and which one will be upheld?

 

The view from the West of modern China is certainly clearer.

[Encephalon]

It appears that the press releases above came came out within three days of each other, 2.5 years ago. I guess that obliges all of us to do a lit review of related stories since then, right? Any volunteers?

[林愛偉]

Important suggestion:

 

Please make proper translations of all Daoist texts, not just Laozi's, Zhuangzi's, etc...

Please explain and translate the teachings of each school of Daoism, its history and philosophy,

and create a base for the education in the west that bears the name "Daoism" can be compared to sso people

can be clear on which teachings are false and deviant, and which holds closer to true Benevolent Daoist teachings.

 

Thats all.

 

Enjoy!.

[Stigweard]

Important suggestion:

 

Please make proper translations of all Daoist texts, not just Laozi's, Zhuangzi's, etc...

Please explain and translate the teachings of each school of Daoism, its history and philosophy,

and create a base for the education in the west that bears the name "Daoism" can be compared to sso people

can be clear on which teachings are false and deviant, and which holds closer to true Benevolent Daoist teachings.

 

Thats all.

 

Enjoy!.

Agreed

[findley]

.... sso people

can be clear on which teachings are false and deviant, and which holds closer to true Benevolent Daoist teachings.

 

 

 

hahaha -- you're not kidding? -Who is to determine what is false and deviant? -you?

-what are 'true Benevolent Daoist teachings'? I mean, not only did you write 'benevolent', but you capitalized it?

 

Have you read the TTC before? I think it is a good place to start, looking for genuine taoist philosophy.

[Lucky7Strikes]

hahaha -- you're not kidding? -Who is to determine what is false and deviant? -you?

-what are 'true Benevolent Daoist teachings'? I mean, not only did you write 'benevolent', but you capitalized it?

 

Have you read the TTC before? I think it is a good place to start, looking for genuine taoist philosophy.

 

Tao "Te" Ching.

 

Te.

[findley]

hmmm, this is why i am studying Chinese-- to clear up these kinds of misconceptions, (from translation.)

 

if you read the book, you would understand that Te refers more to 'wu-wei' than it does to benevolence, or 'virtue' as we typically understand it in the west.

 

Off the top of my head;

 

"when tao was lost, there was benevolence'.

 

I know I could find many other examples to prove my point.

[林愛偉]

hahaha -- you're not kidding? -Who is to determine what is false and deviant? -you?

-what are 'true Benevolent Daoist teachings'? I mean, not only did you write 'benevolent', but you capitalized it?

 

Have you read the TTC before? I think it is a good place to start, looking for genuine taoist philosophy.

 

 

Actually, its Dao De Jing.

 

And no, not me, but full out cultivators of Daoism in China... sorry but there is a right way and a wrong way of doing things. Some see it others can't.

 

Enjoy!....

 

 

 

hahaha -- you're not kidding? -Who is to determine what is false and deviant? -you?

-what are 'true Benevolent Daoist teachings'? I mean, not only did you write 'benevolent', but you capitalized it?

 

Have you read the TTC before? I think it is a good place to start, looking for genuine taoist philosophy.

 

 

Friend, if you are going to quote me, take the whole sentence in quotes....

 

Important suggestion:

 

Please make proper translations of all Daoist texts, not just Laozi's, Zhuangzi's, etc...

Please explain and translate the teachings of each school of Daoism, its history and philosophy,

and create a base for the education in the west that bears the name "Daoism" can be compared to sso people

can be clear on which teachings are false and deviant, and which holds closer to true Benevolent Daoist teachings.

 

Thats all.

 

Enjoy!.

 

Actually, its Dao De Jing.

 

And no, not me, but full out cultivators of Daoism in China... sorry but there is a right way and a wrong way of doing things. Some see it others can't.

 

Its really funny when one mentions the distinction of proper and improper, people start complaining.

 

Enjoy!....

 

Friend, if you are going to quote me, take the whole sentence in quotes....

[Encephalon]

Actually, its Dao De Jing.

 

And no, not me, but full out cultivators of Daoism in China... sorry but there is a right way and a wrong way of doing things. Some see it others can't.

 

Enjoy!....

 

Friend, if you are going to quote me, take the whole sentence in quotes....

 

 

I am of the opinion that reading ancient texts is a risky business if one does not yet possess the psychological maturity to minimize the pitfalls of projection, misinterpretation, errors of context, blah, blah, blah. Almost every person in the West has witnessed someone beating the shit out of someone else with the Bible; it is a notoriously difficult book to read for novices who have no experience with literary criticism.

 

I'm going to have to suggest that the same perils exist with westerners and their treatment of ancient Asian texts. In fact, if TTB offered any hints, I'd say it rivals Bible abuse of the largest order.

[Lucky7Strikes]

hmmm, this is why i am studying Chinese-- to clear up these kinds of misconceptions, (from translation.)

 

if you read the book, you would understand that Te refers more to 'wu-wei' than it does to benevolence, or 'virtue' as we typically understand it in the west.

 

Off the top of my head;

 

"when tao was lost, there was benevolence'.

 

I know I could find many other examples to prove my point.

 

Wu-wei is by nature Virtuous.

 

There is "virtue" when true Virtue is lost by the discriminating mind.

 

And now if you are going to quote that part on straw dogs and what not,

 

That also points to eliminating the dualistic mind that sees individuality in phenomena.

[NeiChuan]

I'd suggest to share eachothers knowledge.. Just between eachother.. Eventually it'd be passed on.. Although unlike alotta've times the knowledge would'nt pass away aswell like the masters.. I mean.. Not really everyone wants to do these things anyway.. Its just another thing that satisfies a void really.. Just like some guitarist ect anything.. When your told by your teacher "You've learnt what you outta.. now go get married and have a family" what do you say?.. Right you keep doing what satisfies you, you improve it aswell..

 

But.. There are missing pieces to the puzzle that are/could be extremely beneficial for human development in general.. For a handful it will be taught.. but if not further explored - lost.. Thats the worst possibility.

Edited September 16, 2009 by NeiChuan

[findley]

Actually, its Dao De Jing.

 

And no, not me, but full out cultivators of Daoism in China... sorry but there is a right way and a wrong way of doing things. Some see it others can't.

 

Enjoy!....

 

Friend, if you are going to quote me, take the whole sentence in quotes....

 

 

I addressed this concept of a 'Benevolent Taoist'-- perhaps you can respond to my actual objection?

 

"Appeal to Authority" is a logical fallacy. I might seek collaboration with 'full-out cultivators from china', but the real answer to the question, is that, yes, you are the final authority on the matter.

 

-Did I take anything you said out of context? No, I didn't.

 

Does anybody know how to read anymore??

 

 

Wu-wei is by nature Virtuous.

 

There is "virtue" when true Virtue is lost by the discriminating mind.

 

And now if you are going to quote that part on straw dogs and what not,

 

That also points to eliminating the dualistic mind that sees individuality in phenomena.

 

 

We are using the same word, 'virtue', here ithat mean two different things.

 

wu-wei is Virtue, (capitalized, in accordance with tao,) and when it is lost, there is (worldly,) virtue.

 

worldly virtue is the quality of virtue wherein benevolence is even possible. When one is beyond duality, beyond good and evil, beyond phenomenal discrimination, one is beyond worldly virtue. beyond benevolence.

 

My P'o follows this taoist wisdom, and therefore I earn for myself freedom in action., freedom from dogma, freedom from guilty conscience.

 

-what life would be like if it was lived strictly through the Hun soul? Well, it wouldnt be 'life'...................

 

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* Insulting other members

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The Moderating Team -->

[Lucky7Strikes]

I addressed this concept of a 'Benevolent Taoist'-- perhaps you can respond to my actual objection?

 

"Appeal to Authority" is a logical fallacy. I might seek collaboration with 'full-out cultivators from china', but the real answer to the question, is that, yes, you are the final authority on the matter. (Don't have the balls and brains to think for yourself?)

-Did I take anything you said out of context? No, I didn't; you pussy fucking retard.

 

Does anybody know how to read anymore??

We are using the same word, 'virtue', here ithat mean two different things.

 

wu-wei is Virtue, (capitalized, in accordance with tao,) and when it is lost, there is (worldly,) virtue.

 

worldly virtue is the quality of virtue wherein benevolence is even possible. When one is beyond duality, beyond good and evil, beyond phenomenal discrimination, one is beyond worldly virtue. beyond benevolence.

 

My P'o follows this taoist wisdom, and therefore I earn for myself freedom in action., freedom from dogma, freedom from guilty conscience.

 

-what life would be like if it was lived strictly through the Hun soul? Well, it wouldnt be 'life'...................

 

From your general replies, I sense that you are using this context in order to justify acting any way you can. This is not freedom from dogma, freedom from action and freedom from guilty conscious. It is a crooked reinforcement of the ego.

 

Dude you're totally off.

 

Appeal to authority is just respecting the hierarchies of tradition and the teachings they hand down. Of course "you" are the one who travels the Path in the end. But traditions have their place.

 

Freedom means to shed the illusion like grasping of the mind. Aren't you a fan of SotGF? Stopping and seeing is one of the very first points emphasized

[Mal]

[Stigweard]

Edited September 17, 2009 by Stigweard