What is the BIGGEST challenge for Modern Western Taoists?

[松永道]

I voted for unqualified teachers, however I would like to extend that to unqualified writers too.

 

But, in fact, this isn't a problem for Daoism in the West alone, Daoism in China faces, and has always faced the same problem. Good teachers are hard to come by. Perhaps good students are hard to come by too. In either case, many teachers fall anywhere on the spectrum from being well-meaning but unskilled to flat-out charlatans.

 

Teaching for one's livelihood is a decidedly difficult because teachings are at best a blueprint. To understand a blueprint, to imagine what it represents, takes all of a lecture or two. But to build it takes months if not years, and it's the student's sole responsibility. Teachers at best provide a good blueprint and motivation. Unfortunately, most teachers instead give students what they ask for.. a pile of blueprints. One after another, to study, imagine, and discard. Worst of all, these students begin believing the blueprint IS the thing. And, what irony, in studying "Dao" they move further into illusion.

 

...

 

Upon reflection, I believe the biggest challenge for a modern western cultivator is the same as it has always been. A dash of ignorance, a hardly helping of distractions, and inadequate self-control.

Edited September 11, 2009 by 松永道

[DalTheJigsaw123]

I would say two things for me: Taoist teachings being diluted by Western marketing and No Authentic teachers.

[Mal]

Is "50" representative ? It's been a LONG time since I did stats for psychology but you might need to be careful with this in an academic paper.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sampling_(statistics) (wiki while not academic will do)

 

None the less I voted

"No place to meet up with other Daoists to study/talk/meditate"

as I always enjoyed meeting the people at Buddhist meditation classes.

[Stigweard]

Is "50" representative ? It's been a LONG time since I did stats for psychology but you might need to be careful with this in an academic paper.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sampling_(statistics) (wiki while not academic will do)

 

None the less I voted

"No place to meet up with other Daoists to study/talk/meditate"

as I always enjoyed meeting the people at Buddhist meditation classes.

Cheers Mal ... I didn't have time to work out the full theoretic sample size etc ... I was content to get the standard error adjustment (i.e. 1/SQRT(Sample Size + 1)) down to an acceptable level to determine a clear trend. Including the poll on Facebook and the one here I have 154 responses to this poll which gives me a standard error adjustment of 8.03%. With the current overall results standing at:

 

Not enough English translations of Taoist texts 8 5.19%

Not being able to personally study with authentic teachers 49 31.82%

Taoist teachings being diluted by Western marketing 18 11.69%

Unqualified teachers attempting to teach Taoism 16 10.39%

Balancing Western lifestyle with spiritual/philosophical studies 24 15.58%

Not having the money to travel to and pay for tuition 5 3.25%

Compatibility challenges between traditional Taoist and modern Western cultures 15 9.74%

No place to meet up with other Daoists to study/talk/meditate 19 12.34%

 

I am comfortable in saying that according to this poll "Not being able to personally study with authentic teachers" is the biggest challenge faced by Modern Western Taoists.

 

[Mal]

Cheers Mal ... I didn't have time to work out the full theoretic sample size etc ... I was content to get the standard error adjustment (i.e. 1/SQRT(Sample Size + 1)) down to an acceptable level to determine a clear trend. Including the poll on Facebook and the one here I have 154 responses to this poll which gives me a standard error adjustment

 

Thats the sort of stuff I like to hear. I had forgotten that you were good with your stats _/\_ I now recall you had done similar analysis before

 

Unfortunately I do not have membership here but perhaps one of the academics may be able to access this article or at least the abstract for you.

 

Journal Religious Studies Review TAOISM: THE ENDURING TRADITION book by Russell Kirkland

 

Although as it's only one page perhaps may not really be anything at all at least the book hits on goggle books

http://books.google.com.au/books?id=zNiHTL...=gbs_navlinks_s

 

Different article but got an abstract, may help

 

Of Alchemy and Authenticity: Teaching About Daoism Today

 

ABSTRACT

Abstract. The authors discuss the complexities and responsibilities of teaching about Daoism in contemporary North American colleges and universities. Expanding and revising the findings of Kirkland (1998), they argue that enough has changed in educational and cultural contexts to warrant new strategies for teaching about Daoism. Textbooks are now available that offer more accurate and responsible presentations of Daoist history, and this enables a richer appreciation of Daoist culture and religion, and its significance within broader areas of Chinese culture such as art, politics, and science. On the other hand, students have a far greater possibility of interacting outside the classroom with North Americans of Chinese and European background who claim affiliation to the Daoist tradition especially through techniques of moving meditation such as Qigong and internal alchemy. This situation poses challenges in the classroom concerning claims of authenticity, tradition, and representation. Rather than shying away from these contemporary North American cultural forms, the authors argue that the skilled teacher can use these interactions to facilitate a deeper inquiry into questions of authenticity and tradition. Moreover, the authors discuss the use of an interactive website designed specifically to assist in reflecting on these issues in the classroom.

http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal...522960/abstract

 

and now getting really obscure and probably not relevant

Article title Daoism in Modern-Day China

Author Yaoting, C.

Journal title CHINESISCHE MEDIZIN -MUNCHEN-

details 2007, JAHR 22; HEFT 1, pages 38-4

(in German )

[Stigweard]

Thats the sort of stuff I like to hear. I had forgotten that you were good with your stats _/\_ I now recall you had done similar analysis before

 

Unfortunately I do not have membership here but perhaps one of the academics may be able to access this article or at least the abstract for you.

 

Journal Religious Studies Review TAOISM: THE ENDURING TRADITION book by Russell Kirkland

 

Although as it's only one page perhaps may not really be anything at all at least the book hits on goggle books

http://books.google.com.au/books?id=zNiHTL...=gbs_navlinks_s

 

Different article but got an abstract, may help

http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal...522960/abstract

 

and now getting really obscure and probably not relevant

Article title Daoism in Modern-Day China

Author Yaoting, C.

Journal title CHINESISCHE MEDIZIN -MUNCHEN-

details 2007, JAHR 22; HEFT 1, pages 38-4

(in German )

Cheers for those links Mal

[Stigweard]

Bump ... last chance to vote

[Daeluin]

Taoist teachings being diluted by Western marketing

 

I feel marketing is one of the largest forces influencing western culture. It is found in nearly every facet of our society, from politics to entertainment to news to what we wear or eat. And largely it exists to promote consumerism.

 

This is a business model, and a successful one. An over-saturated orange or tomato looks tastier than a real one. A catchy slogan will spread, better yet make it one that makes people think something good about x product. A fake announcement of the right type will generate enough positive popularity to outweigh negativity for lying.

 

But what values are we taught through this? We embrace superficiality, we want more and more, from things to entertainment, anything to keep our minds active and happy. Ultimately we're taught that greed and lies are the path to success.

 

With these basic values thriving in western culture, is it no wonder that even practices grounded in some of the ultimate truths are also rife with pretenders? If it can be marketed it will sell.

 

Practicing the truth isn't easy when you're surrounded by lies. Teaching it must be even harder.

[宁]

I don't agree with the 'dilution' idea.

There are a fiew that can cope with and get thru a 'diluted' system, no matter what system we are talking about.

If the root is good, it will get you pretty far.

 

I think this frustration about 'dilution' would not appear if the guy would practice dilligently.

Because, as your internal power grows, you will attract better and better teachers.

As we are we are no match for the teachings of an immortal. Or an enlightened being.

But gradual progress is a sign that things grow according to natural laws.

 

Many want it all and want it now, but that's just western conditioning.

I really believe you can start anywhere, be it reiki, yoga, kundalini, vipassana, tcm, you name it... if you have enough common sense and balanced way of seeing things, you will progress, and you can advance further.

 

So i think the main challenge is frustration = wanting too much and having too little to offer.

Practicing too little, but thinking 'they have the right to' this and that...

Some call it stupidity, maybe they are right.

 

Also some say that blaming the challenges will make you not understand even one iota of the daoist teachings.

Because the challenges are opportunities for proving your strong intention of going all the way on the path.

These tests come very often on the path.

If we start whinning and complaining, we deserve what we (don't) get.

 

The Chinese say:

三心二意 San Xin Er Yi (Three hearts and two intentions) - Undecisive; not able to make up one's mind

And

一心一意 Yi Xin Yi Yi (One heart and one intention) - With great determination

And

全心全意 Quan Xin Quan Yi --- Wholeheartedly

 

Edit: spellings

Edited September 21, 2009 by Little1

[Daeluin]

Little1, thank you for your insightful thoughts.

 

I suppose then my thoughts on dilution don't really apply as challenge to a practicing taoist who has already attained inner momentum. Rather they apply to the adoption of taoism by beginners in western culture.

 

As you said, things do grow gradually. The system of values taught by our culture has grown gradually both in itself and in each one of its practicing citizens. It happens to teach that we can have what we want now, while hiding the mechanisms that make this possible, the things that took time to build, as well as the imperfections.

 

The taoist system on the other hand is full of opposing values, including many that you mentioned.

 

For one to develop the new foundation does require quite the shift in thinking. I feel this shift is significant enough that it does affect modern western taoists by slowing down our progress. Indeed a good core will get you far if you practice diligently, but at least I have trouble with this because of my prior conditioning. Even when I do get ahead and practice diligently for several months, it is still easy to fall back into the old conditioning, especially because that conditioning is reinforced by daily cultural practices.

 

Many want it all and want it now, but that's just western conditioning.

I really believe you can start anywhere, be it reiki, yoga, kundalini, vipassana, tcm, you name it... if you have enough common sense and balanced way of seeing things, you will progress, and you can advance further.

 

So i think the main challenge is frustration = wanting too much and having too little to offer.

Practicing too little, but thinking 'they have the right to' this and that...

Some call it stupidity, maybe they are right.

I agree completely and would extend it to say the root of frustration/western conditioning comes from (economic) values that are spread by marketing.

 

I work for a company that makes websites for the healing arts professions. While many of these teachers are wonderful, I find the successful ones often have a somewhat bogus feel to them. To generalize, they have something to offer their students - a little something, be it technique, charm, marketing - that alludes to greater promise of success. Of course success can only come from within, and a good teacher will prevent a student from trying to draw too much false hope from a teacher. Yet I see this scenario often, and feel it has to do with western conditioning.

 

So along those lines I also feel the dilution of values in our society affects the quality of teachers, and really many aspects of life. Our culture has been built up for a long time after all, so of course it affects our lives profoundly.

 

I feel most of this is in the realm of spiritually inclined people that haven't cultivated enough inner strength to make headway on their own.

 

I don't mean to complain about our cultural conditioning or blame it... rather I try to understand it and how it shapes our lives and communities. Of course it influences us, and I believe the planetary gravities in our solar system also have emotional influences in our lives, but ultimately as you said, nothing beats diligent practice - directly influencing our own life by building inner strength.

[宁]

think about how nature does it, the survival of the..............

was it weakest, or............

[vsaluki]

This poll is being conducted for the upcoming 1st International Summit on Laozi and Daoist Culture, November 5-7, Beijing, China. Please complete and discuss.

 

 

 

Thinking of themselves as modern western Taoists with challenges to overcome may be the biggest problem. That said, I am a bit of a loss as to what to make of all these different translations. Sometimes it is not just slight variation, but actual differences in the meaning.

[11:33]

I voted #2. I say the biggest problem is and always will be finding a genuine master, willing to teach you.

[宁]

I voted #2. I say the biggest problem is and always will be finding a genuine master, willing to teach you.

 

Usually it's the other way around, it's invitation only.

[Spectrum]

ever adequet spaces for practice both still and moving solo and group forms. architectural and natural settings that aerw truly 'quiet'. experiencing isolated independance to density of minds in a perpetual

 

Intertwined bell curves. a spectrum of seemingly opposite companions which texture the cycle generated by observing quietly the basic questions of life.

 

lists of practice sights which offer unique features of interest to those inclined towards sensory deprivation and immersion experiences

 

pigrimaic routes and paths which each lifetime begins and ends

 

sighns and sighnposts on the path

 

things to see in the forest

[三江源]

Having a sexuality which is hard to explain and is so very out of step with current sexuality.

 

ie. all the best ghosts are married.