question about nonduality and sex

[Vajrahridaya]

My opinion is that the experience of non-duality makes everything good! Virtue arises spontaneously in reflection of the inner experience of interconnectivity and wisdom naturally arises in reference to any particular occurrence that takes place within the field of a maintained non-dual presence. So, nothing wrong with sex when your non-dualing.

[witch]

drewhempel, your body needs nutritious food. Occasional fasting is fine, but it will kill you if you starve yourself. That is not the right path.

 

Personally I think strong attachment is healthy and good, and an attitude of non-attachment, particularly during sex, is as unnatural for the body as starving oneself of food.

[Vajrahridaya]

 

Personally I think strong attachment is healthy and good, and an attitude of non-attachment, particularly during sex, is as unnatural for the body as starving oneself of food.

 

If your equating love with attachment, then it can be pruned of unnecessary craving that causes the fluctuating and passionate emotions that happen in most relationships. If one just wants a worldly life, sure, do whatever you want. But if one wants a spiritually liberated life, then what seems "natural" but is really just genetic and social habit patterning can actually be de-conditioned and a more optimum human experience can be realized through genuine spiritual practice. There are plenty of examples of yogi's who have genuine love for their family and friends, but don't suffer the usual attachments and cravings that the masses experience. They'll even make love to their wife, but there is an entirely different inner experience about it that far transcends the so called normal range of pleasure.

Edited September 11, 2009 by Vajrahridaya

[witch]

I am worldly, yes. Not interested in enlightenment. Also not interested in dispassionate sex. However I do have the sexual abilities that involve the higher chakras.

[JustARandomPanda]

Didn't you said you did the practices in Opening the Energy Gates and Relaxing Into Your Being at some point? I'm talking about "Taoist Internal Breathing" aka "Longevity Breathing".

 

I have the books and tried Energy Gates for about two months or so. It didn't do anything for me. I suspect it didn't because I already have an excess of Yin. In 90 degree and up weather my hands and feet are constantly ice cold. Kan & Li let me physically feel how constantly damp and cold my interior is all the time. I need more yang fire in my body (recommendations for any herbs or teas, etc to increase fire are appreciated). KAP is much for 'fire' oriented. I'm responding to it as I never managed to with Frantzis's water method. I am very happy with KAP. (I bet someone with an excess of Yang will respond wonderfully to Frantzis's water method though).

 

KAP's belly breathing isn't the same as Frantzis's Longevity Breathing IMO. At least not the first one I practiced. In Longevity Breathing B.K. advocates the 70% rule. Do everything to about 70% capacity in the breathwork in your belly (I liked that rule!). In KAP though Dr. Morris said to breath in the belly very deep. Like you are trying to get your navel to touch your spine.To do that requires going further than just 70%.

 

After reading his first book Path Notes of an American Ninja Master I now see why he says to do it that way. Pulling in the muscles that deep gets the gut to act as a pump for the jing chi in the base. It helps pump it up the spine further than just Perineum Pumping does alone and thus helps distribute it throughout the body.

 

Accupressure and massage to dissolve tension and get the energy in the area flowing I think is great. Belly breathing as well.

 

I am looking into massage. I found a book on Amazon called Yoni Massage that has me curious.

 

But as Santi wrote in another thread:

 

best way is ti MAKE LOVE for 3 to 6 hours as you do your kap training.

 

that will get you "there" much faster.

 

an hour of love making & sublimation "tantric style" aka kap 2 chakra pujas & Sex gung fu is like 8 hours of singular intense practice.

 

I don't have the option of partner practice (*envies all the ones who do*). Still...I'm hopeful Drew's method can work for me too. It seemed to do him a world of good! I want me some of those "O's at a D"! I've never had an orgasm but that sounds like a damn fine way to start! Bonus points for it bypassing my rope burn problem too!

Edited September 10, 2009 by SereneBlue

[witch]

You've never had an orgasm!

 

Before you get started with all the esoteric things, I think you should start with the basics. My book, The Orgasmic Diet, is pretty cheap now on amazon, even cheaper used. Start off with that and start having regular orgasms, then you can get to the advanced practices of not having them. That's my two cents! There's a whole chapter in the book devoted to women who have never had an orgasm.

 

If you decide to try it, let me know how it goes.

[Pero]

I have the books and tried Energy Gates for about two months or so. It didn't do anything for me. I suspect it didn't because I already have an excess of Yin.

 

I don't think this is that much related. His method is for dissolving blockages. Excess of Yin would still mean blockages. Maybe Pietro could comment.

 

In 90 degree and up weather my hands and feet are constantly ice cold. Kan & Li let me physically feel how constantly damp and cold my interior is all the time. I need more yang fire in my body (recommendations for any herbs or teas, etc to increase fire are appreciated). KAP is much for 'fire' oriented. I'm responding to it as I never managed to with Frantzis's water method. I am very happy with KAP. (I bet someone with an excess of Yang will respond wonderfully to Frantzis's water method though).

 

Do you do any physical exercise?

 

Years back I often got cold hands and especially feet. From memory I think it was because I was ungrounded (that and poor blood circulation, the two perhaps not unrelated). Like at a pranic healing seminar people measured my aura, and while around the upper part of the body it was strong, particularly around the head, it practically vanished around the lower part. After more regular physical exercise (martial arts and basketball), and also more qigong and less meditation, I became much more balanced, and my cold hands and feet completely vanished. Recently they've come back, though I'm kind of surprised it took this long hehe.

[Creation]

I have the books and tried Energy Gates for about two months or so. It didn't do anything for me. I suspect it didn't because I already have an excess of Yin. In 90 degree and up weather my hands and feet are constantly ice cold. Kan & Li let me physically feel how constantly damp and cold my interior is all the time. I need more yang fire in my body (recommendations for any herbs or teas, etc to increase fire are appreciated). KAP is much for 'fire' oriented. I'm responding to it as I never managed to with Frantzis's water method. I am very happy with KAP. (I bet someone with an excess of Yang will respond wonderfully to Frantzis's water method though).

 

KAP's belly breathing isn't the same as Frantzis's Longevity Breathing IMO. At least not the first one I practiced. In Longevity Breathing B.K. advocates the 70% rule. Do everything to about 70% capacity in the breathwork in your belly (I liked that rule!). In KAP though Dr. Morris said to breath in the belly very deep. Like you are trying to get your navel to touch your spine.To do that requires going further than just 70%.

 

After reading his first book Path Notes of an American Ninja Master I now see why he says to do it that way. Pulling in the muscles that deep gets the gut to act as a pump for the jing chi in the base. It helps pump it up the spine further than just Perineum Pumping does alone and thus helps distribute it throughout the body.

I'm glad KAP is working so well for you.

 

I recommended Frantzis style breathing over KAP style because in KAP you are contracting the PC muscles on the exhale, and the whole point of my post was that you should consider doing something to counterbalance all the PC contractions.

 

Frantzis is great for the mechanics of the breathing, even if you choose not to follow his 70% rule philosophy. You can integrate the movement of the sides and back into your KAP breathing. Like I said, it will help the MCO, belt channel, and dan tien cultivation.

 

I suspect Frantzis advocates the 70% rule so strongly because over-zealous westerners without teachers use do not understand just how tense they really are and so mess themselves up by unintentionally overstraining.

 

If you religiously follow the 70% rule and are a naturally timid person your progress will be imperceptibly slow. Moreover, if you are numb to your own tension Frantzis' methods will do next to nothing for you (if you can't feel it, how can you dissolve it?).

Edited September 10, 2009 by Creation

[Trunk]

In 90 degree and up weather my hands and feet are constantly ice cold.

I suggest that you go to a doctor of chinese medicine (if there is one in your area). There's a strong possibility that well chosen herbal formula/s could help you a great deal (in ways that would benefit your whole, not only hands & feet).

 

Cold hands & feet are typically a sign of blood deficiency (at a level mild enough so that western medicine generally wouldn't recognize it). Women are "ruled by blood". (Men are "ruled by qi".) Integral with reproductive issues, menstrual, 'o'. Chinese medicine has plenty of herbal formulas that both build and circulate blood - usually a balanced mix of both building & circulating in a single formula. There are some middle-of-the-road formulas that you could try on your own, or with a phone consult to a qualified staff member at an herbal company, if you're unable to get to a doctor of CM. But it'd be better if you could see a doctor in order to properly address details, if possible.

 

Here's a blended drink (link) that you could try occasionally, if you're interested. It has chicken liver in it; liver both builds and circulates blood. Not instead of seeking qualified help, but as an occasional thing you could do yourself.

 

Trunk

Edited September 10, 2009 by Trunk

[JustARandomPanda]

I don't think this is that much related. His method is for dissolving blockages. Excess of Yin would still mean blockages.

Well that could certainly be true. I was just musing about why I am seeing results from KAP within 1 week but nothing with Frantzis's method over approximately 2 months. I'm sure it's also a big advantage that I actually have a teacher in KAP whereas with Energy Gates I was doing everything DIY.

 

I'm no Qi Gong expert that's for sure. Take what I said with a grain of salt. Obviously Frantzis' method works for many people. If it didn't I'm sure he'd have long ago been looking for a day job.

 

p.s. I confess I am quite curious about Michael Lomax's Stillness-Movement Qi Gong. However..I think it best to stick with KAP for now and quite possibly for at least a few more years. If I recall correctly, Dr. Morris said in his book the fastest one could reasonably expect to awaken Kundalini is 3 years and that's only if you spend hours each day dedicated to the practices! I don't have that kind of Pro Athlete style determination so it will likely be many years more than just 3.

 

If you religiously follow the 70% rule and are a naturally timid person your progress will be imperceptibly slow. Moreover, if you are numb to your own tension Frantzis' methods will do next to nothing for you (if you can't feel it, how can you dissolve it?).

BINGO!

 

I got all of the above. Naturally timid to the point of being a shut-in (that was both my Ex's nic for me and my current BF concurs - he said I'm more of a hermit than anyone he's ever met). Plus difficulty in feeling emotion or even know if what you are feeling qualifies as an emotion (maybe it's just energy instead?). The icing on the cake is the long term pain incurred from being hit by a drunk driver. Oh...and add sexual problems that can cause depression to boot. I'm damaged goods when it comes to sex but I'm actually feeling more cheerful and hopeful about finding workable solutions than I have in ages. Much in no small part due to some very encouraging and informative PMs I've received from fellow TaoBummers. *hugs to all TB-ers*

 

I got a lot of repair work to do but I think I'm up to it.

 

 

I guess I'll drop the Perineum Pumps since people seem to believe it's dangerous and unbalanced - at least for me.

 

 

BTW - Witch I'm going to check out your book!!!

 

 

p.p.s. Apologies to Old Man for hijacking his thread. Hopefully it will now get back to the original point of discussion as it has some good questions.

[Trunk]

... just to add to my previous reply ...

 

This book by Bob Flaws might be of use.

 

from the book description:

... this book was written specifically for the lay reader. In particular, this book discusses premenstrual syndrome or PMS. The author begins by presenting an overview of the Chinese medical map. ... Next the author discusses the menstrual cycle from the point of view of Chinese medicine. This is followed by a discussion of the Chinese mechanisms of PMS. Following this theoretical introduction comes a description of how this information is used in real-life by professional practitioners of Chinese medicine. The author discusses Chinese herbal medicine and PMS and acupuncture and moxibustion and PMS. However, perhaps even more importantly, the author discusses a number of home remedies for PMS. ...

 

I know that you didn't ask about PMS, but cold hands & feet + other point to women's issues and this book could give you an overview of women's issues from a CM perspective. Bob Flaws is a doctor and author that is very well respected in the Chinese Medical community and in his private practice he specializes in women's issues.

 

Here's a list of layperson's books from his company, Blue Poppy Enterprises. A good resource for all of us western~eastern nerds.

[JustARandomPanda]

I know that you didn't ask about PMS, but cold hands & feet + other point to women's issues and this book could give you an overview of women's issues from a CM perspective. Bob Flaws is a doctor and author that is very well respected in the Chinese Medical community and in his private practice he specializes in women's issues.

 

Here's a list of layperson's books from his company, Blue Poppy Enterprises. A good resource for all of us western~eastern nerds.

 

 

Thank you Trunk.

 

Damn. Where was everyone years ago when some of this stuff first started.

[Ya Mu]

Well that could certainly be true. I was just musing about why I am seeing results from KAP within 1 week but nothing with Frantzis's method over approximately 2 months. I'm sure it's also a big advantage that I actually have a teacher in KAP whereas with Energy Gates I was doing everything DIY.

 

I'm no Qi Gong expert that's for sure. Take what I said with a grain of salt. Obviously Frantzis' method works for many people. If it didn't I'm sure he'd have long ago been looking for a day job.

 

p.s. I confess I am quite curious about Michael Lomax's Stillness-Movement Qi Gong. However..I think it best to stick with KAP for now and quite possibly for at least a few more years. If I recall correctly, Dr. Morris said in his book the fastest one could reasonably expect to awaken Kundalini is 3 years and that's only if you spend hours each day dedicated to the practices! I don't have that kind of Pro Athlete style determination so it will likely be many years more than just 3.

BINGO!

 

I got all of the above. Naturally timid to the point of being a shut-in (that was both my Ex's nic for me and my current BF concurs - he said I'm more of a hermit than anyone he's ever met). Plus difficulty in feeling emotion or even know if what you are feeling qualifies as an emotion (maybe it's just energy instead?). The icing on the cake is the long term pain incurred from being hit by a drunk driver. Oh...and add sexual problems that can cause depression to boot. I'm damaged goods when it comes to sex but I'm actually feeling more cheerful and hopeful about finding workable solutions than I have in ages. Much in no small part due to some very encouraging and informative PMs I've received from fellow TaoBummers. *hugs to all TB-ers*

 

I got a lot of repair work to do but I think I'm up to it.

I guess I'll drop the Perineum Pumps since people seem to believe it's dangerous and unbalanced - at least for me.

BTW - Witch I'm going to check out your book!!!

p.p.s. Apologies to Old Man for hijacking his thread. Hopefully it will now get back to the original point of discussion as it has some good questions.

 

Another thing you may wish to try is rebounding exercise (jumping on miniature trampoline). This will help stimulate all channels and bring better circulation to hands/feet. Trunk's suggestion is also very good. I have seen Chinese herbs make huge difference - only don't advise you play with them without seeing a TCM practitioner.

 

FWIW I don't see any conflict in you learning the KAP and Stillness-Movement. There are some others who are practicing Stillness-Movement who have done the KAP.

I will say that I would be VERY surprised if you practiced Stillness-Movement for 100 days and didn't achieve normalization of the cold hands and feet, assuming you don't have a genetic/bacterial/viral/neuro-damage component. In fact I would be very surprised if you didn't get hot as a firecracker all over the first or at least 2nd day in a workshop. If you ever decide to try it I'll offer you guaranteed no cold hands/feet after 100 days of practice or your funds for the workshop refunded (but you would have to practice). Also most women who practice Stillness-Movement have reported normalization of ALL female system aspects, including sex drive, PMS, irregular cycle, ability to achieve orgasms, Dysmenorrhea, and other.

[Creation]

Naturally timid to the point of being a shut-in (that was both my Ex's nic for me and my current BF concurs - he said I'm more of a hermit than anyone he's ever met). Plus difficulty in feeling emotion or even know if what you are feeling qualifies as an emotion (maybe it's just energy instead?).

...

I got a lot of repair work to do but I think I'm up to it.

Seriously, are you my long lost sister or what?

 

p.s. I confess I am quite curious about Michael Lomax's Stillness-Movement Qi Gong. However..I think it best to stick with KAP for now and quite possibly for at least a few more years.

Stillness movement and KAP are my primary practices. I must confess I probably don't devote enough time to either one, but for me right now it the combination seems best to me.

 

I guess I'll drop the Perineum Pumps since people seem to believe it's dangerous and unbalanced - at least for me.

If you think the perineum pumps are what you need to be doing, do it. Play around with it, but just go easy and be balanced. Someone mentioned the deer exercise as an alternative, which Tao would have no problem with since he wrote instructions for it http://www.umaatantra.com/tantra_articles/...r_exercise.html

 

p.p.s. Apologies to Old Man for hijacking his thread.

Took the words right out of my mouth.

[shen]

(recommendations for any herbs or teas, etc to increase fire are appreciated)

ho sho wu

[voidisyinyang]

Here's the Small Universe C.D.

 

http://sharebee.com/eba4bb0f

 

 

I have the books and tried Energy Gates for about two months or so. It didn't do anything for me. I suspect it didn't because I already have an excess of Yin. In 90 degree and up weather my hands and feet are constantly ice cold. Kan & Li let me physically feel how constantly damp and cold my interior is all the time. I need more yang fire in my body (recommendations for any herbs or teas, etc to increase fire are appreciated). KAP is much for 'fire' oriented. I'm responding to it as I never managed to with Frantzis's water method. I am very happy with KAP. (I bet someone with an excess of Yang will respond wonderfully to Frantzis's water method though).

 

KAP's belly breathing isn't the same as Frantzis's Longevity Breathing IMO. At least not the first one I practiced. In Longevity Breathing B.K. advocates the 70% rule. Do everything to about 70% capacity in the breathwork in your belly (I liked that rule!). In KAP though Dr. Morris said to breath in the belly very deep. Like you are trying to get your navel to touch your spine.To do that requires going further than just 70%.

 

After reading his first book Path Notes of an American Ninja Master I now see why he says to do it that way. Pulling in the muscles that deep gets the gut to act as a pump for the jing chi in the base. It helps pump it up the spine further than just Perineum Pumping does alone and thus helps distribute it throughout the body.

I am looking into massage. I found a book on Amazon called Yoni Massage that has me curious.

I don't have the option of partner practice (*envies all the ones who do*). Still...I'm hopeful Drew's method can work for me too. It seemed to do him a world of good! I want me some of those "O's at a D"! I've never had an orgasm but that sounds like a damn fine way to start! Bonus points for it bypassing my rope burn problem too!

Edited September 11, 2009 by drewhempel

[voidisyinyang]

Well by yang and yin qi you may mean "positive and negative vitality" which are the terms used in "Taoist Yoga: Alchemy and Immortality" -- see the negative vitality is the jing or electrochemical energy while the positive vitality is the electromagnetic energy but it's also the negative spirit or shen while the positive spirit is also the prenatal vital which is the physical form of the jing. That's why alchemy starts and ends with jing. But the real secret is the "eternal nature" mentioned but not elaborated on -- the student is more Buddhist than Taoist and wants to know about eternal nature but the Taoist says you can't have eternal nature without physical immorality. This is what Mahayana teaches as well in contrast to Advaita Vedanta and Hinayana.

 

Advaita Vedanta (and the later forms of it) rely on the "direct path" which is mind yoga -- using left-brain meditation instead of right-brain visualization. So the left vagus nerve connects directly to the heart, thereby overriding the need to bring the energy from up the back down to the lower body again -- instead it goes direct to the source of the life of the body. It's argued that once that source is "cut" -- the knot of the ego -- then it's the same as eternal life. Mahayana says NO because when the body is sick then the mind can't empty out with the breath and the final breath will not empty into pure consciousness via light. But Advaita Vedanta argues that if a person already physically kills themselves and transcends death then indeed with every breath their mind is already emptying out past the body. Only there's no way for anyone else to know -- so it's easy for the philosophy to be corrupted.

 

So in the end it's stated by Advaita Vedanta that once the other practices achieve Emptiness or Nirvikalpa Samadhi they then focus on external astral travel and physical immortality -- without focusing on the SOURCE of who is traveling or who is immortal (the source being eternal nature). And at the very end of the practice any god or immortal body returns back to pure consciousnes so Advaita Vedanta says the secret is to keep staying in Nirvikalpa Samadhi -- the Emptiness -- which is experienced as having "no body" and "no mind" but at the same time is accessed through the heart.

 

LMFAO, I think that's the best line I've ever read on here..

 

Anyhow, can you clarify this male electromagnetic vs female electrochemical energy? So, the male produces energy electromagnetically (like electricity from an electromagnetic generator) and the female electrochemically (like electricity from a battery)? Are these energy forms still the same then (like electricity), just generated differently? Or are they also inherently different, like yin & yang qi?

[Vajrahridaya]

I am worldly, yes. Not interested in enlightenment. Also not interested in dispassionate sex. However I do have the sexual abilities that involve the higher chakras.

 

Dispassionate as in not feeling is not what I mean.

 

Dispassionate as in utterly blissful and totally involving every chakra in a balanced manor that utilizes as well as transcends the "energy" of desire is what I mean.

 

You don't utilize the upper chakras, integrating the lower completely if your still filled with uncontrollable craving, if your not interested in enlightenment, or not contemplating interdependent origination/emptiness. Your just having some sort of personal experience that passes... even if for an extended period.

 

If you don't experience cosmic omniscience during sex? Your just neo-tantra...

 

Which is fine, if that's all you want. Not everyone is actually interested in complete liberation from psychological suffering and unconscious rebirth.

 

 

p.s. wordly in Buddhism means bound by karma and habit patterns.

Edited September 11, 2009 by Vajrahridaya

[ralis]

Dispassionate as in not feeling is not what I mean.

 

Dispassionate as in utterly blissful and totally involving every chakra in a balanced manor that utilizes as well as transcends the "energy" of desire is what I mean.

 

You don't utilize the upper chakras, integrating the lower completely if your still filled with uncontrollable craving, if your not interested in enlightenment, or not contemplating interdependent origination/emptiness. Your just having some sort of personal experience that passes... even if for an extended period.

 

If you don't experience cosmic omniscience during sex? Your just neo-tantra...

 

Which is fine, if that's all you want. Not everyone is actually interested in complete liberation from psychological suffering and unconscious rebirth.

 

 

p.s. wordly in Buddhism means bound by karma and habit patterns.

 

You take yourself too seriously! You have no idea if your ideology works or not!

 

ralis

[Vajrahridaya]

You take yourself too seriously! You have no idea if your ideology works or not!

 

ralis

 

I have more than idea if it works.

 

Oh... Am I ever serious.

 

Ralis... I think your looking in a proverbial mirror.

 

p.s. cosmic omniscience doesn't mean knowing every single particular that is happening at all times cosmically, it just means having intimate non-conceptual and blissful knowledge of how the entire cosmos works, but also expands how much one knows on a level of dualistic particulars.

 

 

 

Oh, also... it's not so much of an Ideology, but more of a letting go of subjective thinking and really seeing beyond limiting conditionings. Enlightenment is a recognition, not an ideology.

Edited September 11, 2009 by Vajrahridaya

[ralis]

I have more than idea if it works.

 

Oh... Am I ever serious.

 

Ralis... I think your looking in a proverbial mirror.

 

p.s. cosmic omniscience doesn't mean knowing every single particular that is happening at all times cosmically, it just means having intimate non-conceptual and blissful knowledge of how the entire cosmos works, but also expands how much one knows on a level or dualistic particulars.

Oh, also... it's not so much of an Ideology, but more of a letting go of subjective thinking and really seeing beyond limiting conditionings.

 

As usual you write in contradictions. If one knows how the entire cosmos works, then it follows that one would understand the minute details. As you have pointed out, all phenomena are interrelated.

 

Do you see beyond your own limits? Are your arguments not subjective?

 

Argue with me on the merits of my arguments and stop condescending remarks about what changes I should make (proverbial mirror). Your condescending remarks indicate a lack of Buddhist compassion!

 

BTW, you take the bait every time I post a remark. LOL!! You must be anxiously waiting at your computer for any opportunity to proselytize from your point of view. People like you make the best poker opponents (fish) that lose all their money. I happen to know because I play a lot of poker (No Limit Poker).

 

 

ralis

[Vajrahridaya]

As usual you write in contradictions. If one knows how the entire cosmos works, then it follows that one would understand the minute details. As you have pointed out, all phenomena are interrelated.

 

Yes, one can get into a state where one can travel through time and space and know particulars. As deep meditation has proven to me. But, that's not liberation. Liberation is knowing how things function, yet spontaneously manifest which is beyond name and form. The linear minded wouldn't know.

 

Do you see beyond your own limits? Are your arguments not subjective?

 

Only apparently. As words fool the subjective.

 

Argue with me on the merits of my arguments and stop condescending remarks about what changes I should make (proverbial mirror). Your condescending remarks indicate a lack of Buddhist compassion!

 

Why are you taking it as condescending?

BTW, you take the bait every time I post a remark. LOL!! You must be anxiously waiting at your computer for any opportunity to proselytize from your point of view. People like you make the best poker opponents (fish) that lose all their money. I happen to know because I play a lot of poker (No Limit Poker).

ralis

 

That's nice.

 

I seem to know when someone makes a remark. For some reason.... hmmm.

 

I don't pine though, or try to fool people... like poker players.

 

Honestly... talk about condescending.

 

I just do my business online and check back here from time to time and read things. If I'm inspired to write, I do. I'm not trying to change your world... I'm just letting the words flow.

 

p.s. Ralis,

 

The thing is... is that your way of thinking won't allow you to take in anything I say. No matter how many times I have taken your points apart, you won't hear them, or read them. Since day one you've come at me in a condescending manor that was somewhat spiteful. So... I'm really just writing to those that read this, not really to you. I'm sorry... I wish you well in your voyage to many poker triumphs, as that seems to be the marrow of your existence, or part of it.

Edited September 11, 2009 by Vajrahridaya

[mat black]

It seems people just misunderstand Vajrahridaya.

 

If we would get our own views and opinions out of the way when reading his posts, we might see that he is trying to point us toward something waaaaay better and more profound than our own narrow desires and discriminations.

[Vajrahridaya]

Mahayana says NO because when the body is sick then the mind can't empty out with the breath and the final breath will not empty into pure consciousness via light.

 

Where'd you get this idea?

 

So in the end it's stated by Advaita Vedanta that once the other practices achieve Emptiness or Nirvikalpa Samadhi

 

Buddhist emptiness is not the same as Nirvikalpa absorption. Nirvikalpa Samadhi is merely the 8th Jhana or attainment of the Pali description of meditative absorptions.

 

........

 

The Rupa Jhānas

 

There are 4 stages of deep concentration which are called the Rupa Jhāna (Fine-material Jhāna):

 

First Jhāna - To attain this jhāna, the meditator must fix his mind on the meditation object to reduce and eliminate the lower mental qualities which is called the Five Hindrances (sensual desire, ill will, sloth and torpor, restlessness and worry, and doubt) and promote the growth of five jhāna factors (applied/directed thought, sustained thought, rapture, bliss and one-pointedness). In this stage, only the subtlest mental movement remains. The ability to form unwholesome intentions ceases.

 

Second Jhāna - To attain this jhāna, the meditator must reduce and eliminate the two initial factors of the first jhāna itself (applied/directed thought and sustained thought), the three remaining jhāna factors still possessed by the meditator are the rapture, bliss and one-pointedness. In this stage, all mental movement utterly ceases. The meditator acquires complete confidence and internal assurance.

 

Third Jhāna - To attain this jhāna, the meditator must reduce and eliminate the third initial factor of the first jhāna itself (rapture), the two remaining jhāna factors still possessed by the meditator are the bliss and one-pointedness. Three additional components are possessed by the meditator (equanimity, mindfulness and discernment).

 

Fourth Jhāna - To attain this jhāna, the meditator must reduce and eliminate the fourth initial factor of the first jhāna itself (bliss) and replace it with another jhāna factor (equanimity/neutral feeling), the two remaining jhāna factors still possessed by the meditator are the equanimity/neutral feeling and one-pointedness. In this stage, the meditator enters a state of supreme purity, equanimity, and pure consciousness.

 

The Formless Dimensions

 

Beyond the four jhāna lie four higher attainments in the scale of concentration, usually referred in commentarial literature as the Arūpajhānas (Immaterial/formless Jhāna). The immaterial jhānas are designated as:

 

5. Dimension of infinite space.

6. Dimension of infinite consciousness.

7. Dimension of nothingness.

8. Dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. = 8th Jhana or Nirvikalpa Samadhi, considered the state of the Godhead in Theism.

 

In the suttas, these are never referred to as "jhanas". According to the early scriptures, the Buddha learned the last two formless attainments from two teachers, Alara Kalama and Uddaka Ramaputta, respectively, prior to his enlightenment. It is most likely that they belonged to the Brahmanical tradition.

..........

 

Emptiness in Buddhism is pointing to dependent origination which points beyond the attachment to an eternal, self sustaining nature that expresses and absorbs everything eternally, as is taught in Advaita Vedanta which is a later development even after the development of Mahayana.

 

Nirvikalpa Samadhi -- the Emptiness -- which is experienced as having "no body" and "no mind" but at the same time is accessed through the heart.

 

Emptiness in Buddhism is not a state of absorption beyond body and mind. It's a recognition of non-abiding (dependently arising) nature, thus transcending Advaita Vedantin Eternalism and Materialist Nihilism.

Edited September 11, 2009 by Vajrahridaya

[Vajrahridaya]

waaaaay.... more profound.