question about nonduality and sex

[witch]

 

Hmmm, interesting. Ok. I personally like constant joy, no matter what happens. When there's inner joy, one does not project this sense of lack through secret subconscious manipulations of incoming information.

 

I'm pretty sure I wouldn't care for that.

[Vajrahridaya]

I think i'm beginning to understand spiritual sexuality. It seems to me that a lot of what Eastern Schools of Thought teach are ways of coercing the mind into mimicking the functions of pro-creation within the parameters of the body and mind. I feel as if everything i'm learning right now is teaching me how to turn my body into a big giant cock, the spinal duct becoming the "main vein", if you will, and like an erect cock, the flow points upwards to the head as sexual energy breaches the mind and fills it with celestial mother's milk.

 

YAY!! Cumming out of the crown of your head instead of the tip of your pee pee!!

 

I'm pretty sure I wouldn't care for that.

 

Just out of curiosity. You said you'd be the opposite of a Buddhist. So, do you worship Satan, or Mara? I'm not joking, as I know there are plenty that do. When I say Satan, I mean the dark side of the force. LOL!

 

Just curious.

 

I've been friends with some that do, so I'm not judging as everyone has their own eternal process to undertake and is worthy of compassion.

 

 

 

I gotta say I have an easier time understanding Dependent Origination from the way the Dalai Lama explains it than I can from VH even though they're both explaining the exact same thing.

 

 

Well... That's why he's the Dalai Lama and I'm not. Please forgive me for my lack of ability, he has way more realization in his little pinky than I have in my entire body.

I wonder what it must feel like to be a big, spiritual dick...

 

I wonder if that is even possible for women? How can you really know what it feels like to be what you don't have?

 

It feels deep and wonderful and that feeling can extend outside of the bedroom. It feels the same for a women, as I've experienced with a lover. There is a deep intermingling that happens on this level where all the chakras are shared and one can very deeply know and feel exactly what the other is feeling, thinking, etc. It's fabulous and worth the practice.

Edited September 12, 2009 by Vajrahridaya

[witch]

 

Just out of curiosity. You said you'd be the opposite of a Buddhist. So, do you worship Satan, or Mara? I'm not joking, as I know there are plenty that do. When I say Satan, I mean the dark side of the force. LOL!

 

Just curious.

 

I've been friends with some that do, so I'm not judging as everyone has their own eternal process to undertake and is worthy of compassion.

 

 

I suppose I don't know enough about Buddhism, I was under the impression that Buddhists didn't worship anything. Or maybe that's what you mean by opposite.

 

I wouldn't say I worship Hathor, but I follow her, I belong to her

 

[Vajrahridaya]

I suppose I don't know enough about Buddhism, I was under the impression that Buddhists didn't worship anything. Or maybe that's what you mean by opposite.

 

I wouldn't say I worship Hathor, but I follow her, I belong to her

 

 

Oh ok, Motherly love Goddess. Well, that's a positive force.

 

We don't really worship anything in the sense of a theist as in calling that being as totally responsible for us and our complete source of existence. We see everything as an inherent potentiality within infinitude. Gods and Goddesses even though they have long lives in high and powerful realms as merit born of lives lived from a previous universe, are not eternal and completely worthy of refuge to us. Buddhists take refuge in the realization of being awake (Buddha means awake) to the nature and process of all things, planes of existence and the nature of all beings from high to low. Hathor sounds like a Goddess of goodness though and worthy of deep respect and veneration. I bow to her.

 

 

Within the Cosmos, even Goddess beings though having power and help support their worshipers, cannot really guarantee liberation from karmic recycling according to Buddhist cosmology unless one has realization for oneself.

 

We Worship the historical Buddha and other such Masters in the sense that we have the same potential for ourselves and can aspire to that hight of realization and depth of insight, compassion and total love for ourselves in order to serve others better with openness and love. We think of them more as our equals though we are humbled by their attainments, only in the sense that we ourselves have not come to that level of realization. Yet, in certain states of samadhi or glimpses of the Dharma or the Way, we experience that very same wisdom mind and find an inner depth and equality with the endless Buddhas of endless time, thereby knowing that our practice will lead to the very same level of attainment as those beings we venerate.

 

Edited September 13, 2009 by Vajrahridaya

[witch]

Since I don't actually believe in the continuity of the soul I have a very different perspective from you. I believe that each individual's life starts at birth and ends at death. At death everything is done. I do believe in astrology very strongly. I believe that gods and goddesses are thoughtforms expressing the influence of individual planets. For example, Hathor represents the planet Venus. She is a very silly Venus, famous for doing a burlesque strip tease to make the god Ra laugh and stop sulking. She's also very frivolous, the goddess of makeup and drunkenness, along with being your standard mother goddess. Hot tempered too, changing into the ferocious lioness goddess Sekhmet when she loses her temper. My Venus is in Aquarius, and with my chart it is very good to focus on my Venus to bring my chart and my life into balance. I focus both on balance and being in harmony with the material world as much as possible. The importance of those two things in my life convinced me that in some ways I am a taoist.

 

I believe that some suffering impels us to work hard, avoid things that are bad for us, and deepens our character. Both individuals and humanity can work at decreasing suffering in the world, for example working for social justice, beneficial science and medicine, etc. I believe this sort of thing is brought by the influence of the planet Saturn and asteroid Chiron.

 

In my view, Buddhism has its place for when the burden of a person's natal chart is too much to be borne. Meditation and the principles that Buddha taught can free oneself of the burden of the astrological cycles in one's lifetime rather than at death. So it's there as a refuge for difficult transits and difficult charts. But I'd like to be engaged with what's laid out for me and try to balance, at least so far, rather than trying to disengage.

[Vajrahridaya]

But I'd like to be engaged with what's laid out for me and try to balance, at least so far, rather than trying to disengage.

 

Buddhism only disengages ignorance so that balance and harmony happens naturally and spontaneously. More later on what I mean by this.

 

There are so many proofs for past lives in my honest and experienced opinion. Kids remembering past lives and proving thus with empirical evidence, etc. can be found online and in books. I'm also one of these kids. Not only that but if one meditates very, very deeply, one will remember without a doubt. But that's only to dismantle attachment to individual identity, and strengthen transcendent confidence, but not to strengthen an idea of... "oh I'm supposed to be this or that person!"

 

I find nothing wrong in what you say, but it's somewhat limited in my opinion and doesn't see causation and relativity to a depth and degree that is possible for the human capacity. Yet... what you say I find good in! So, no argument there. Though of course I don't expect you to measure up to my opinion... I'm just saying. But of course, you are your own person with individual causation.

 

I love Astrology... I'm Aries Sun, Gemini Moon and Scorpio Rising in Western Astrology, and I knew my houses at some point in historical study, etc. I'm Pisces in Eastern Astrology. Both make sense for me personally. It's all quite interesting and accurate as far as my karmic make up goes. I find enlightenment merely being the ability to bring about the positive aspects of all one's planetary/karmic pulls.

 

I don't believe in an inherent soul... just a continuation of energy and the ability to have awareness that is knowledgeable of how one's energy manifested prier to this life only in order to better understand how and why things are happening in this life. It makes it easier to see causes and conditions and lay down the blame game once and for all and take full responsability for ones life.

 

All the best!!

 

I'm happy to get to know you!

Edited September 13, 2009 by Vajrahridaya

[hyok]

I wonder what it must feel like to be a big, spiritual dick...

 

I wonder if that is even possible for women? How can you really know what it feels like to be what you don't have?

 

 

It's a good question. Probably more valid than men pondering on what a female orgasm feels like. More valid due to its ties to spirituality and how this process of backward-flow meditation (which seems very important) is so similar in its procedural aspects to how men project sexual energy out of their cocks.

 

For example, when sexual energy is aroused, for me it seems to begin with a type of Hunger in the lower abdomen which then seems to send energy down my perenium and into the cock, but as the energy flows it seems to be dragging blood with it, almost acting as some sort of "will" commanding anything near it.

 

Between the perenium and where the outter portion of the penis begins is a pump that functions similarly to the sacral pump in the lower back region. This perenium-penial pump sends sexual energy into the penis while the sacral pump sends it up the spine, but I must add that the penial pump adds a touch of sensual pleasure after each progressive draft beckoning the mind to stretch farther. Conversely from what i've experienced, Backward-flow mediation is only somewhat pleasurable and this occurs, for me, only when Chi Air flows into the nether-regions of the diaphram, or in my case the scrotum, and it's not so much a sexual pleasure as it is more an odd feeling. lol.

 

I'm curious though, do women feel something similar to this that causes lubrication?

[JustARandomPanda]

I'm curious though, do women feel something similar to this that causes lubrication?

Perhaps Witch can help as my experience is of sex = internal burns that lubricants and creams do not much alleviate.

Edited September 13, 2009 by SereneBlue

[Vajrahridaya]

Perhaps Witch can help as my experience is of sex = internal burns that lubricants and creams do not much alleviate.

 

Oh you poor dear! I hope this can be alleviated!

[witch]

Your pH is off. Again, try my diet, that should also fix that.

 

Hmm...I though Buddhism wanted to disengage from the cycle of suffering and the material world or something like that. If it in instead searching for balance within the material world, I am closer to that.

 

I do not find the evidence for past lives conclusive.

[goldisheavy]

Your pH is off. Again, try my diet, that should also fix that.

 

Hmm...I though Buddhism wanted to disengage from the cycle of suffering and the material world or something like that. If it in instead searching for balance within the material world, I am closer to that.

 

I do not find the evidence for past lives conclusive.

 

What Buddhism wants is different depending on which Buddhism you follow. If you follow Theravada, which only recognizes the Pali Canon, then the goal is to transcend all identities so as to get off the wheel of rebirth. However, in Buddhist view, even for Theravadins, there is not necessarily any material universe to begin with. There are just appearances, experiences, and so forth. There is nothing "out there" backing those experiences up. I'm pretty sure at least some Theravadins understand this, but maybe not all. It depends on how they interpret that Pali Canon. But information in Pali Canon is sufficient, in my opinion, to come to understand that the world is not physical by nature.

 

Now if you listen to what Mahayana Buddhism wants, then they promote a Bodhisattva ideal. In Theravada bobhisatta is just Buddha-to-be, like Buddha Gotama before he became a Buddha, and that's it. There is nothing special about it beyond that. In Mahayana Bodhisattva is someone who vows to be reborn over and over to help enlighten countless beings. In Mahayana understanding Bodhisattvas are not even supposed to cling to Buddhahood. They eventually become Buddhas, but not because they want to -- something like that. They just want to alleviate suffering and so vow to be reborn over and over. This is a rather more positive outlook than in Theravada where you just want to end the suffering and that's it.

 

I would say that Vajrayana is like Mahayana in many ways, but they claim to be able to get you enlightened in 1 to 7 lifetimes, or some such.

[Vajrahridaya]

 

Hmm...I though Buddhism wanted to disengage from the cycle of suffering and the material world or something like that. If it in instead searching for balance within the material world, I am closer to that.

 

 

In Buddhism, psychological suffering is considered to originate from the ignorant perception of the world. In Buddhism, the right apprehension of Samsara or the world is Nirvana or heaven, it's not an ideal outside of the world. It's a realization of true potential while in the world.

 

I do not find the evidence for past lives conclusive.

 

For the most part you won't through the physical senses. It's a thing more akin to meditative intuition and insight.

[markern]

 

For the most part you won't through the physical senses. It's a thing more akin to meditative intuition and insight.

 

This is not a comment on your memories or what a lot of people expereince of possible memories in meditation or the experience of these kids but I will say this: THose I have encountered that belive they remember past lives tend to all belive they lived on atlantis but still describe the place completly differently. They tend to have lived the lives of aristocrats or concubines to Djengis Khan and stuff like that. Statisticly almost everyones past lives should have been as peasants who eat shit and die with little adventure.

[Vajrahridaya]

This is not a comment on your memories or what a lot of people expereince of possible memories in meditation or the experience of these kids but I will say this: THose I have encountered that belive they remember past lives tend to all belive they lived on atlantis but still describe the place completly differently. They tend to have lived the lives of aristocrats or concubines to Djengis Khan and stuff like that. Statisticly almost everyones past lives should have been as peasants who eat shit and die with little adventure.

 

LOL! That is true. I'm sorry that you've met some pretty far out new agers in reference to this topic.

 

My past life memories consist of animal lives, even a dinosaur life. I have been a monk more than once in different traditions. I've done questionable things in my past lives as well which I don't really want to divulge, but they have to do with some of the negativities that I've had to face in this life. I've even been a stork. I do remember other more far out type of stuff, but... I don't use these experiences as excuses to solidify identity and ego. They should do the opposite in fact.

Edited September 14, 2009 by Vajrahridaya

[markern]

LOL! That is true. I'm sorry that you've met some pretty far out new agers in reference to this topic.

 

My past life memories consist of animal lives, even a dinosaur life. I have been a monk more than once in different traditions. I've done questionable things in my past lives as well which I don't really want to divulge, but they have to do with some of the negativities that I've had to face in this life. I've even been a stork. I do remember other more far out type of stuff, but... I don't use these experiences as excuses to solidify identity and ego. They should do the opposite in fact.

 

Stork!!!

 

But how does one move up from stork or other animals to humans or a "better" animal? I can`t see animals and bugs making moral choiches to get good rebirth, they just do. Also I would choose many animals lives over a lot of the human lives available today. I would rather be my friends well feed and loved dog that gets cuddled al day and get to go hunting a couple of months a year then even most good human lives especialy and certainly the crappy ones. He is happy all the time.

[CarsonZi]

Hey Markern.....

 

But how does one move up from stork or other animals to humans or a "better" animal? I can`t see animals and bugs making moral choiches to get good rebirth, they just do. Also I would choose many animals lives over a lot of the human lives available today. I would rather be my friends well feed and loved dog that gets cuddled al day and get to go hunting a couple of months a year then even most good human lives especialy and certainly the crappy ones. He is happy all the time.

 

The answer to this question came first for me while reading "The Law of One/The Ra Material".

 

In it, it is explained that all animals are able to go from "Second Density" (the density of microbial, animal and plant life) to "Third Density" (the density of Self-Awareness) over time, but that takes a LONG time. A faster way for plants and animals to "graduate" from 2nd Density to 3rd Density is through the aid of a 3rd Density energy form, such as a human. Basically it was explained that animals like a dog (who is a human pet) is a likely candidate for graduation to the 3rd Density because of the attention and Love given to it from the 3rd Density entity. Same can happen for Trees and a few other specific plants. It is the Loving energy given to the 2nd Density organism that helps it transition to a state of Self Awareness. This is the way it was explained in The Law of One, which resonates deeply with myself.

 

Personally I have 2 dogs, and had one that we (my wife and I) had to put down due to lymph node cancer a couple of years ago. I can almost guarantee that these two life forms wil be human in their next lives. They are SOOOOOO human already! There is no way that this can be proven, but I know in my heart that this holds deep Truth for me.

 

Love,

Carson

[Vajrahridaya]

Stork!!!

 

But how does one move up from stork or other animals to humans or a "better" animal? I can`t see animals and bugs making moral choiches to get good rebirth, they just do. Also I would choose many animals lives over a lot of the human lives available today. I would rather be my friends well feed and loved dog that gets cuddled al day and get to go hunting a couple of months a year then even most good human lives especialy and certainly the crappy ones. He is happy all the time.

 

Concerning your friends dog,

It's not as aware of the experience of joy and it doesn't have nearly as much power of blissful awareness in it as the human capacity. It's more of a pleasure for the dog.

 

As far as being an animal or a bug, it's very hard to go beyond that stage, unless one just slips into it for a short period of time from a more intelligent and more self aware life form. Karma is deeply complex and non-linear. The Buddha explains this in the Pali Suttas. How one can have a next life that had nothing at all to do with being the outcome of this life. Which is why he said it's extremely important to unravel your karmic baggage while you have a human (or self aware) incarnation.

 

 

 

Hey Markern.....

The answer to this question came first for me while reading "The Law of One/The Ra Material".

 

In it, it is explained that all animals are able to go from "Second Density" (the density of microbial, animal and plant life) to "Third Density" (the density of Self-Awareness) over time, but that takes a LONG time. A faster way for plants and animals to "graduate" from 2nd Density to 3rd Density is through the aid of a 3rd Density energy form, such as a human. Basically it was explained that animals like a dog (who is a human pet) is a likely candidate for graduation to the 3rd Density because of the attention and Love given to it from the 3rd Density entity. Same can happen for Trees and a few other specific plants. It is the Loving energy given to the 2nd Density organism that helps it transition to a state of Self Awareness. This is the way it was explained in The Law of One, which resonates deeply with myself.

 

Personally I have 2 dogs, and had one that we (my wife and I) had to put down due to lymph node cancer a couple of years ago. I can almost guarantee that these two life forms wil be human in their next lives. They are SOOOOOO human already! There is no way that this can be proven, but I know in my heart that this holds deep Truth for me.

 

Love,

Carson

 

This is correct actually. It has to do with karmic influence.

 

This is also why in Dzogchen ceremonies (Ganapujas) we actually partake in eating meat with the sincere consciousness that we are effecting the animal karma of these beings. We chant mantras that ask that these animal offerings into our own karmic (energetic) stream grant that the animals may take human birth as our disciples once we ourselves attain complete Buddhahood.

 

One can think of this as merely a way to expand compassion, or also a sincere way to help liberate those that are trapped in lower density consciousness packages (body/mind forms).

 

I opt for both.

 

Take care.

[JustARandomPanda]

Concerning your friends dog,

It's not as aware of the experience of joy and it doesn't have nearly as much power of blissful awareness in it as the human capacity. It's more of a pleasure for the dog.

 

As far as being an animal or a bug, it's very hard to go beyond that stage, unless one just slips into it for a short period of time from a more intelligent and more self aware life form. Karma is deeply complex and non-linear. The Buddha explains this in the Pali Suttas. How one can have a next life that had nothing at all to do with being the outcome of this life. Which is why he said it's extremely important to unravel your karmic baggage while you have a human (or self aware) incarnation.

This is correct actually. It has to do with karmic influence.

 

Uh...am I understanding this right? That I could be reborn as an animal, bug or amoeba and further more it's extremely difficult to gather enough "escape velocity" to be reborn as a human again?

[markern]

Concerning your friends dog,

It's not as aware of the experience of joy and it doesn't have nearly as much power of blissful awareness in it as the human capacity. It's more of a pleasure for the dog.

 

As far as being an animal or a bug, it's very hard to go beyond that stage, unless one just slips into it for a short period of time from a more intelligent and more self aware life form. Karma is deeply complex and non-linear. The Buddha explains this in the Pali Suttas. How one can have a next life that had nothing at all to do with being the outcome of this life. Which is why he said it's extremely important to unravel your karmic baggage while you have a human (or self aware) incarnation.

This is correct actually. It has to do with karmic influence.

 

This is also why in Dzogchen ceremonies (Ganapujas) we actually partake in eating meat with the sincere consciousness that we are effecting the animal karma of these beings. We chant mantras that ask that these animal offerings into our own karmic (energetic) stream grant that the animals may take human birth as our disciples once we ourselves attain complete Buddhahood.

 

One can think of this as merely a way to expand compassion, or also a sincere way to help liberate those that are trapped in lower density consciousness packages (body/mind forms).

 

I opt for both.

 

Take care.

 

So I must have been quite a brilliant bug in my time to move up then. Cool.

 

I am open to the idea that both something like karma and merit exists and it might be possible that somethng that comes to you directly in meditation as an illuminating insight might be worthwile to take action from but I almost never see any of that on forums just peoples endless intelectual, wild and unsubstantiated speculations.

 

Why would one want to speculate about karmic conections. You don`t`need to in order to progress in something like Vipassana for example, just keep noting the three characteristics. If for some reason one "accidentaly" gets some insight into ones karmic workings then fine, go with that, but thinking about it intelectualy seems to me to be some of the least constructive ways to spend ones time. On this board for example people often make judgments like saying they are certain another posters sexual issues comes from time in celibacy as a monk or other wild speculations about karmic logic that could just as well be explained by a couple of thousand other theories of karmic workings. Bill bodri wrote on his site that I had to have acumulated an enormous amount of merit to have deserved to have the opportunity to read about the teachings he was offering

 

In the context of the buddhas statement about karmas non linearity, such thinking seems even more absurd. When such thinking actualy motivates people to do stuff it gets completly insane in my opinion and very destructive. All the guilt people give themselves for bad things beyond their present control in this life because they think they must have dones something terrible in a past life just makes the whole thing quite sick in my opinion as they have no clue about this and they might just as well have been saints the last five times arround since they are now in contact with teachings and teachers that can get them enlightened. Sereneblue in a thread a while back wrote something about that she had to have done something realy horrible to deserve something she expereinced int his life. Whats the point of that. And if one when one starts analyzing back one would have to "psychoanalyze" a couple of eons worth of lifetimes to make the connections. All of that stuff wastes precious time, mental energy and focus that could be better spent getting enlightened quicker. There realy isen`t much more to do then practice and try to do good for other people. Same thing with all the talk about gaining merit. People make retarded asumptions that they are not progressing in meditation because of lack of merit and think they have to run arround and do a lot of good so that they will achieve jhanas or advance in Dzogchen or some such bullshit. Thats a realy bad motivation to do good IMO. One should try to do good because it is good. That will gain you more merit anyway if there is such a thing as merit which again means just practice and try to love other people and do good for them without wasting ines time in intelectual specualtation. If I started behaving like that it would be a huge step back for me. Do Zen people bother to think about this stuff at al????

 

Oh and before one even starts to speculate about such things with anything other than a very light heart it would be a prerequisite to get representatives from all the traditions that belive in karma and se if they could actualy agree on anything at all. Get all the rinpoches and tulkus and swamis and shamans and whatnot together. And see if they are not all over the place in their views on karma. I am sure some would say that if one is a human one has to be quite bad to be "fired" and become a bug again whereas others (the Buddha if I understand you correct) would say the whole thing jumps all over the place and so you could becme a bug anytime and have to wait a couple of eons to get another shot etc. If these guys can not agree then that must mean most of them are basicly wrong as several theories of the logic of karma can not be true at the same time. That should at least make ordinary people vary of engaging in all that nonsense. Or at least if they can agree on at least a few things people could make their assumtions based on that. But then again figuring out what the points of agreement on karma between the different traditions are would take quite a few years of intense study which again is a tremendous vaste of time.

Edited September 14, 2009 by markern

[CarsonZi]

Hi SereneBlue.....

 

 

Uh...am I understanding this right? That I could be reborn as an animal, bug or amoeba

 

I think you are misunderstanding....it goes the other way. 2nd Density energy forms (plants, animals, insects, ameoba etc) take a REALLY long time to naturally transition into 3rd Density energy forms (humans) unless there is intervention (help in the form of Love and attention) from a higher density energy form. I'm pretty sure the process doesn't work both directions....there is always forward progress (in the long run)....

 

and further more it's extremely difficult to gather enough "escape velocity" to be reborn as a human again?

 

We as human beings are the envy (so-to-speak, more just "the luckiest") of every other density.....there is nothing more Bliss inducing then realizing you have been dreaming this whole time and waking up to Truth (that we are all One). There is nothing more Bliss inducing then living in misery to find out that you were CHOOSING to live in misery and making the choice for Bliss instead.

 

We as human beings are extremely lucky....we are in the Density that is the "waking up" density....we are here in this "reality" (which is really a dream) to realize that "reality" is a dream....that we are NOT seperate entities having seperate experiences...we are all One and we have All gone through this before. We have just forgotten. This is all a game...."Lila"....God's Play.......We are here to remember that we are Source and this is the Density for doing it. If you don't "Realize" in this lifetime you will have another chance . Worrying about running out of time is silly....time is an illusion...All is Now.

 

Love,

Carson

[Vajrahridaya]

Uh...am I understanding this right? That I could be reborn as an animal, bug or amoeba and further more it's extremely difficult to gather enough "escape velocity" to be reborn as a human again?

 

You? NO WAY! Hitler? Stalin? ... well...

 

Really... the Buddhists say that one should practice like your hair is on fire. Because it's true, we never know what's in our personal karmic history until we really start meditating deeply. One of the blessings of getting a guide, or connecting to a matrix of enlightened lineage is that these beings will usher you after death. If you really connect on an experiential level and not just say, "hi".

[Vajrahridaya]

So I must have been quite a brilliant bug in my time to move up then. Cool.

 

Either that or maybe the Buddha stepped on you? Karmic or energetic influences... eh? If a being is constantly in a state of offering blessing, then even the killing of a bug will be a blessing for that bug.

 

I am open to the idea that both something like karma and merit exists and it might be possible that somethng that comes to you directly in meditation as an illuminating insight might be worthwile to take action from but I almost never see any of that on forums just peoples endless intelectual, wild and unsubstantiated speculations.

 

It's really just energy. It's really just causation. It's quite logical.

 

Why would one want to speculate about karmic conections. You don`t`need to in order to progress in something like Vipassana for example, just keep noting the three characteristics. If for some reason one "accidentaly" gets some insight into ones karmic workings then fine, go with that, but thinking about it intelectualy seems to me to be some of the least constructive ways to spend ones time. On this board for example people often make judgments like saying they are certain another posters sexual issues comes from time in celibacy as a monk or other wild speculations about karmic logic that could just as well be explained by a couple of thousand other theories of karmic workings. Bill bodri wrote on his site that I had to have acumulated an enormous amount of merit to have deserved to have the opportunity to read about the teachings he was offering

 

Yes, I understand. People can't help but speak from their own experience or understanding though. They won't all measure up to your subjective view I'm afraid. It's great that you have found Vipassana though and have some peace of mind from spirituality in general.

 

That does show a massive accumulation of merits!

 

It's just energy, previous intention baring fruit... Karma is just elementary particle* consciousness.

 

*Elementary particle; a particle of which larger particles are composed.

 

In the context of the buddhas statement about karmas non linearity, such thinking seems even more absurd. When such thinking actualy motivates people to do stuff it gets completly insane in my opinion and very destructive. All the guilt people give themselves for bad things beyond their present control in this life because they think they must have dones something terrible in a past life just makes the whole thing quite sick in my opinion as they have no clue about this and they might just as well have been saints the last five times arround since they are now in contact with teachings and teachers that can get them enlightened. Sereneblue in a thread a while back wrote something about that she had to have done something realy horrible to deserve something she expereinced int his life. Whats the point of that.

 

That's your view and understanding. That doesn't mean it's true and correct, or insight into what the Buddha means. I'm sorry that your thinking is going into nihilism. All the Buddha is saying is that events have endless causes and each cause is itself an effect of endless causes. It's meant to break a person out of linear thought processessing where you see in multiple or eventually infinite directions at once in your thinking and perceiving. It should also give a person a sense of urgency in the practice, not hopelessness, but hope!

 

There's a story I'd like to share.

 

Two students came to a great teacher. One of the students asked the teacher, "Oh great master, I have been meditating for many decades now, how long will it take for me to attain enlightenment?" The teacher looked at him and said, "You will attain enlightenment in two lifetimes." The student looked at his teacher with disdain and walked away cursing his practice for being so slow in it's ability to bare fruit.

 

The other student then asked the teacher, "Oh great teacher, how long before I attain liberation?" The teacher looked at the student intently and said... "Well, you my dear will have as many lives as this tree has leaves before you attain liberation." The student said with incredible glee!! "REALLY? MY PRACTICE WILL BARE FRUIT? I WILL ATTAIN LIBERATION?" The teacher said, "Of course your practice will bare fruit, as all actions bare fruit, both physical and mental." The student was so inspired by these words that he/she doubled her/his efforts and swiftly attained liberation in this very lifetime.

 

And if one when one starts analyzing back one would have to "psychoanalyze" a couple of eons worth of lifetimes to make the connections. All of that stuff wastes precious time, mental energy and focus that could be better spent getting enlightened quicker.

 

Don't psychoanalyze. Just do the practice and go deeper within. What arises for you will happen naturally and freely. You'll see your mind illumine aspects and details in a very natural and easy way.

 

There realy isen`t much more to do then practice and try to do good for other people. Same thing with all the talk about gaining merit. People make retarded asumptions that they are not progressing in meditation because of lack of merit and think they have to run arround and do a lot of good so that they will achieve jhanas or advance in Dzogchen or some such bullshit. Thats a realy bad motivation to do good IMO. One should try to do good because it is good.

 

I agree! That's the right perspective. But, there are many perspectives and each one should be handled with care. This information market has it's pro's and con's. We come into contact with information so quickly and easily, sometimes it can be a hindrance or beneficial. But ultimately, it's not the informations fault, it's really up to us personally.

 

That will gain you more merit anyway if there is such a thing as merit which again means just practice and try to love other people and do good for them without wasting ines time in intelectual specualtation. If I started behaving like that it would be a huge step back for me. Do Zen people bother to think about this stuff at al????

 

Insight just happens while meditating, or walking spontaneously something aligns with the mind of deep meaning and one see's connectivity on a very subtle and fast level that transcends the amount of time it takes to talk about it or write it out. The mind is faster than anything, it's faster than the speed of light, it's faster than scientific measurement. Just practice, I agree!

 

 

Oh and before one even starts to speculate about such things with anything other than a very light heart it would be a prerequisite to get representatives from all the traditions that belive in karma and se if they could actualy agree on anything at all. Get all the rinpoches and tulkus and swamis and shamans and whatnot together. And see if they are not all over the place in their views on karma. I am sure some would say that if one is a human one has to be quite bad to be "fired" and become a bug again whereas others (the Buddha if I understand you correct) would say the whole thing jumps all over the place and so you could becme a bug anytime and have to wait a couple of eons to get another shot etc. If these guys can not agree then that must mean most of them are basicly wrong as several theories of the logic of karma can not be true at the same time. That should at least make ordinary people vary of engaging in all that nonsense. Or at least if they can agree on at least a few things people could make their assumtions based on that. But then again figuring out what the points of agreement on karma between the different traditions are would take quite a few years of intense study which again is a tremendous vaste of time.

 

You sound like your thinking like the first person in my story. Try to change your perspective to the second person in my story? Wouldn't you benefit more?

 

Karma is non-linear, but is definite in it's fruit. It's non-linear, so thus it can appear linear and because it is abstract it can be clear. It's just seeing causation and it's complexities through meditative insight. It will happen spontaneously through practice.

 

Edited September 14, 2009 by Vajrahridaya

[ralis]

Either that or maybe the Buddha stepped on you? Karmic or energetic influences... eh? If a being is constantly in a state of offering blessing, then even the killing of a bug will be a blessing for that bug.

It's really just energy. It's really just causation. It's quite logical.

Yes, I understand. People can't help but speak from their own experience or understanding though. They won't all measure up to your subjective view I'm afraid. It's great that you have found Vipassana though and have some peace of mind from spirituality in general.

 

That does show a massive accumulation of merits!

 

It's just energy, previous intention baring fruit... Karma is just elementary particle* consciousness.

 

*Elementary particle; a particle of which larger particles are composed.

That's your view and understanding. That doesn't mean it's true and correct, or insight into what the Buddha means. I'm sorry that your thinking is going into nihilism. All the Buddha is saying is that events have endless causes and each cause is itself an effect of endless causes. It's meant to break a person out of linear thought processessing where you see in multiple or eventually infinite directions at once in your thinking and perceiving. It should also give a person a sense of urgency in the practice, not hopelessness, but hope!

 

There's a story I'd like to share.

 

Two students came to a great teacher. One of the students asked the teacher, "Oh great master, I have been meditating for many decades now, how long will it take for me to attain enlightenment?" The teacher looked at him and said, "You will attain enlightenment in two lifetimes." The student looked at his teacher with disdain and walked away cursing his practice for being so slow in it's ability to bare fruit.

 

The other student then asked the teacher, "Oh great teacher, how long before I attain liberation?" The teacher looked at the student intently and said... "Well, you my dear will have as many lives as this tree has leaves before you attain liberation." The student said with incredible glee!! "REALLY? MY PRACTICE WILL BARE FRUIT? I WILL ATTAIN LIBERATION?" The teacher said, "Of course your practice will bare fruit, as all actions bare fruit, both physical and mental." The student was so inspired by these words that he/she doubled her/his efforts and swiftly attained liberation in this very lifetime.

 

 

 

Don't psychoanalyze. Just do the practice and go deeper within. What arises for you will happen naturally and freely. You'll see your mind illumine aspects and details in a very natural and easy way.

I agree! That's the right perspective. But, there are many perspectives and each one should be handled with care. This information market has it's pro's and con's. We come into contact with information so quickly and easily, sometimes it can be a hindrance or beneficial. But ultimately, it's not the informations fault, it's really up to us personally.

Insight just happens while meditating, or walking spontaneously something aligns with the mind of deep meaning and one see's connectivity on a very subtle and fast level that transcends the amount of time it takes to talk about it or write it out. The mind is faster than anything, it's faster than the speed of light, it's faster than scientific measurement. Just practice, I agree!

You sound like your thinking like the first person in my story. Try to change your perspective to the second person in my story? Wouldn't you benefit more?

 

Karma is non-linear, but is definite in it's fruit. It's non-linear, so thus it can appear linear and because it is abstract it can be clear. It's just seeing causation and it's complexities through meditative insight. It will happen spontaneously through practice.

 

 

 

Stop using science (non-linear dynamics) to justify your untenable arguments. Why do you persist? Spiritual types like yourself, love to use fancy terms to justify a philosophical position! I guess in your mind 1+1=3 would be an example of non-linearity. LOL! Quantify your philosophical position within these parameters. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonlinear_system

 

BTW, which dinosaur species were you? Your claim of a dinosaur past life, implies a dinosaur consciousness i,e. self awareness. Dinosaurs are of the class Reptilia, are only instinctual and have no awareness except to survive at all costs. There is absolutely no upward spiritual mobility.

 

ralis

Edited September 15, 2009 by ralis

[Old Man Contradiction]

I am equally guilty of letting my ego co-opt my spiritual experiences for it's own purposes. My progress is truthfully measured by how I respond to life, sometimes I respond mindfully... other times I find myself trying to convince people to change their beliefs, putting energy into my anxiety of the future, and fear of the past. Even this post is an expression of ego.

[Vajrahridaya]

Stop using science (non-linear dynamics) to justify your untenable arguments. Why do you persist? Spiritual types like yourself, love to use fancy terms to justify a philosophical position! I guess in your mind 1+1=3 would be an example of non-linearity. LOL! Quantify your philosophical position within these parameters. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonlinear_system

 

BTW, which dinosaur species were you? Your claim of a dinosaur past life, implies a dinosaur consciousness i,e. self awareness. Dinosaurs are of the class Reptilia, are only instinctual and have no awareness except to survive at all costs. There is absolutely no upward spiritual mobility.

 

ralis

 

 

I rub you wrong... don't I? Your soo effected Ralis.

 

The impetus for a Dinosaurs evolution is based upon past lives, the propulsion of karmas from past universes even. There is no beginning, nor a point of origin.

 

I wonder how much time you've given to studying your own mind through internalizing of awareness, i.e. meditation?

 

It's pointless to talk with you Ralis. I will NOT think like you... that'd be going backwards for me, meaning literally linearly devolving.

 

Don't you have some money to win by being slick and sly and knowing how to lie? Mr. Poker?

 

I am equally guilty of letting my ego co-opt my spiritual experiences for it's own purposes. My progress is truthfully measured by how I respond to life, sometimes I respond mindfully... other times I find myself trying to convince people to change their beliefs, putting energy into my anxiety of the future, and fear of the past. Even this post is an expression of ego.

 

Don't be so hard on yourself, let the judgement go! Be light hearted about the whole affair! You have endless time!! Let it play and learn how to play happily!

 

Quantify your philosophical position within these parameters. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonlinear_system

 

ralis

 

Ralis, Ralis, Ralis,

 

I'm not using non-linear within the mathematical schematic. That's not my context at all. Do you read objectively? The meaning is found through context.

 

I mean non-linear as in... a,b,c,d,e...z. As in, you can find z through any letter anywhere in the alphabet. Show me d and I'll show you how it connects to u as well as i.

 

Every point of experience originates based upon every other point of experience. Can you handle that? Or is that too loooooost in spaaaaaaaaaaaaaaace?? Ahhhh, the endless sphere!

 

I mean non-linear as in, the primary condition of a possible experience may be enlodged in the subconscious of any being, but until the secondary condition arises in the environment, that experience will not happen, so thus another experience will happen who's causes may be newer from a linear standpoint. This also goes for past or future lives. It's actually all explained quite well by the Buddha in the Pali Canon. Thus spiritual progress is always non-linear as we are way too complex for that. Though the Buddhas delineation of the process is genius, he also shows by contradicting himself many times that he is not subjecting everyone to a linear presumption of the space/time continuum. Each point is based on every other point, thus infinite reference of infinite finites. So, there is still unique points, each referencing infinitude differently through it's seeming finitude. Different people need different teachings at different times, or at the same time, or the same people at different times.

Edited September 15, 2009 by Vajrahridaya