question about nonduality and sex

[markern]

As I mentioned I have great faith in the deer exercises. I also think it is a good idea to do some pc stuff just not an hour and prioritsed less then disolving tension, getting the energy flowing and relaxation and last but not least listening to and acting from whatever the lower centers says and feels like doing. Sex just won`t be what it is supposed to be whitout that last part.

 

Betty Dodson is suposedly superb for helping women have thir first orgasms. She is a bit "clit-centric" in the "women can only get pleasure from the clitoris kind of way" which is bullshit but the necesary starting point for many. The a-spot although a bit tricky to find is often an even better starting button actualy. But clitoris then a-psot then the rest is probably the way to go for most. Google David shade deep spot and go to the first site that comes up wich should be a fastseduction site. There shade has v very ggod article on the a-spot/deep-spot.

 

THe ability to feel the body as one unit, as one cell I think is very important in order to achieve orgasms because it realy helps a lot in turning of the brain and its tendencies to control and instead just be which in turn is vital for an orgasm to happen because it only happens when control is given up. The best two ways I know to achieve this is bodyscanning - feel the right leg, the left, feel the buttocks, the stomach the hands, tthe whole left side of the body the whole right side of the body, feel the whole body simultainiously etc. THe other method is tai chi. Currently I am learning mantak chias shortest tai chi from because it only takes 5-7 minutes to do and I need practice time for other stuff as well.

 

Have you asked tao/santiago for something that can heat you and something that can help for the sexual isssues?

 

Dispassionate as in not feeling is not what I mean.

 

Dispassionate as in utterly blissful and totally involving every chakra in a balanced manor that utilizes as well as transcends the "energy" of desire is what I mean.

 

You don't utilize the upper chakras, integrating the lower completely if your still filled with uncontrollable craving, if your not interested in enlightenment, or not contemplating interdependent origination/emptiness. Your just having some sort of personal experience that passes... even if for an extended period.

 

If you don't experience cosmic omniscience during sex? Your just neo-tantra...

 

Which is fine, if that's all you want. Not everyone is actually interested in complete liberation from psychological suffering and unconscious rebirth.

 

 

p.s. wordly in Buddhism means bound by karma and habit patterns.

 

 

Shinzen young has a couple of articles on his site that are superb in explaining these things. THe one on equanimity is superb. Without equanimity you are actualy clogging your expereince and feeling LESS sexual desire than you could. The escaping into life (I think it is called) is also good

[Ya Mu]

Yes, one can get into a state where one can travel through time and space and know particulars. As deep meditation has proven to me. But, that's not liberation. Liberation is knowing how things function, yet spontaneously manifest which is beyond name and form. The linear minded wouldn't know.

 

Yes! I think this transcends Buddhist or Taoist thought and gets to the real truth. I put in bold your words that seem to be a stumbling block for many.

[witch]

I've had a crown chakra orgasm. I've experienced the cosmic oneness with the universe that that brings, and it was interesting, I don't regret having the experience, and I see how I could have one of those during sex if I were in the yab yum position and did the other things I did. I know lots of people want to have those as much as possible, but once was enough for me. Also I didn't like the loss of fear that came after that for a few weeks. Fear is an efficient motivator to get things done in daily life. The memory of that experience is enough to help me overcome fear when that is necessary, but I like preserving my animal instincts as much as possible, and fear is most certainly an animal instinct.

 

I do like feeling carnal desire and an individual separateness coming together with my partner. I don't want the loss of ego and blending with the cosmos and my partner at the same time. I'm not Buddhist at all, I am most definitely the opposite of Buddhist.

 

My preference for higher chakra orgasms is primarily the fourth. Fourth chakra orgasmic outpourings are very feminine and fulfilling for me. I also like opening up and receiving at the sixth chakra, but it's hard to find a man with a good pair of horns on him.

 

I am quite pagan, earthy and celebrate my animal nature.

 

Serene Blue, not sure what a perineum pump is, but if they are Kegels, while that sort of activity can be a double-edged sword for men, I've never heard of any danger in women engaging in that practice. But anyhow, I am glad you will get my book, because I think it will be helpful for you to have a robust sexual baseline to work from if you want to get into the more esoteric tantric practices. Good nutrition I think will help lay the foundation.

[Trunk]

I am quite pagan, earthy and celebrate my animal nature.

[Lucky7Strikes]

Drew vs. Vaj...

 

...

 

[Unconditioned]

 

Off-topic... but it looks like he's got a secret... the picture instantly made me smile and I'm not quite sure why.

[Trunk]

The Rupa Jhānas

 

There are 4 stages of deep concentration which are called the Rupa Jhāna (Fine-material Jhāna): ...

Delightful!

Thank you!

 

[voidisyinyang]

Vaj -- I got this idea from Master Nan, Huai-chin -- his books are best-sellers in China and he's considered a "top" Ch'an Master and practices full-lotus. His books are amazing but I guess they're out of print now. He has the whole Mahayana Canon memorized or something.

 

What about this take on the Jhanas?

 

http://realitysandwich.com/jhanas_meditative_absorptions

 

Where'd you get this idea?

Buddhist emptiness is not the same as Nirvikalpa absorption. Nirvikalpa Samadhi is merely the 8th Jhana or attainment of the Pali description of meditative absorptions.

 

........

 

The Rupa Jhānas

 

There are 4 stages of deep concentration which are called the Rupa Jhāna (Fine-material Jhāna):

 

First Jhāna - To attain this jhāna, the meditator must fix his mind on the meditation object to reduce and eliminate the lower mental qualities which is called the Five Hindrances (sensual desire, ill will, sloth and torpor, restlessness and worry, and doubt) and promote the growth of five jhāna factors (applied/directed thought, sustained thought, rapture, bliss and one-pointedness). In this stage, only the subtlest mental movement remains. The ability to form unwholesome intentions ceases.

 

Second Jhāna - To attain this jhāna, the meditator must reduce and eliminate the two initial factors of the first jhāna itself (applied/directed thought and sustained thought), the three remaining jhāna factors still possessed by the meditator are the rapture, bliss and one-pointedness. In this stage, all mental movement utterly ceases. The meditator acquires complete confidence and internal assurance.

 

Third Jhāna - To attain this jhāna, the meditator must reduce and eliminate the third initial factor of the first jhāna itself (rapture), the two remaining jhāna factors still possessed by the meditator are the bliss and one-pointedness. Three additional components are possessed by the meditator (equanimity, mindfulness and discernment).

 

Fourth Jhāna - To attain this jhāna, the meditator must reduce and eliminate the fourth initial factor of the first jhāna itself (bliss) and replace it with another jhāna factor (equanimity/neutral feeling), the two remaining jhāna factors still possessed by the meditator are the equanimity/neutral feeling and one-pointedness. In this stage, the meditator enters a state of supreme purity, equanimity, and pure consciousness.

 

The Formless Dimensions

 

Beyond the four jhāna lie four higher attainments in the scale of concentration, usually referred in commentarial literature as the Arūpajhānas (Immaterial/formless Jhāna). The immaterial jhānas are designated as:

 

5. Dimension of infinite space.

6. Dimension of infinite consciousness.

7. Dimension of nothingness.

8. Dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. = 8th Jhana or Nirvikalpa Samadhi, considered the state of the Godhead in Theism.

 

In the suttas, these are never referred to as "jhanas". According to the early scriptures, the Buddha learned the last two formless attainments from two teachers, Alara Kalama and Uddaka Ramaputta, respectively, prior to his enlightenment. It is most likely that they belonged to the Brahmanical tradition.

..........

 

Emptiness in Buddhism is pointing to dependent origination which points beyond the attachment to an eternal, self sustaining nature that expresses and absorbs everything eternally, as is taught in Advaita Vedanta which is a later development even after the development of Mahayana.

Emptiness in Buddhism is not a state of absorption beyond body and mind. It's a recognition of non-abiding (dependently arising) nature, thus transcending Advaita Vedantin Eternalism and Materialist Nihilism.

[Vajrahridaya]

Shinzen young has a couple of articles on his site that are superb in explaining these things. THe one on equanimity is superb. Without equanimity you are actualy clogging your expereince and feeling LESS sexual desire than you could. The escaping into life (I think it is called) is also good

 

Yes! When one is in a detached state of totally relaxed equanimity, that fire of sexual desire fills the entire being with a supernal pleasure that stops completely centering in the lower regions. It's like your entire spine is the phallus, the lingum, the channel of intense creative simultaneous outpouring and indrawing.

 

[hyok]

Yes! When one is in a detached state of totally relaxed equanimity, that fire of sexual desire fills the entire being with a supernal pleasure that stops completely centering in the lower regions. It's like your entire spine is the phallus, the lingum, the channel of intense creative simultaneous outpouring and indrawing.

 

 

Nice! Where is the instructional manual for this? I NEED IT.

 

 

*edit - link to Shinzen article.

Edited September 11, 2009 by hyok

[Vajrahridaya]

Vaj -- I got this idea from Master Nan, Huai-chin -- his books are best-sellers in China and he's considered a "top" Ch'an Master and practices full-lotus. His books are amazing but I guess they're out of print now. He has the whole Mahayana Canon memorized or something.

 

What about this take on the Jhanas?

 

http://realitysandwich.com/jhanas_meditative_absorptions

 

Well, according to Vajrayana one can attain liberation in the bardo no matter what state of body your in, sick, dead..., dismembered, whatever. It's about the mind! Of course if you want to function your enlightenment through your body, it helps to integrate with a healthy body. But there are plenty of examples of great beings who died with very sick bodies but totally illumined minds!! A wonderful book is....

Link to Amazon display of GRACEFUL EXITS: HOW GREAT BEINGS DIE: Death Stories Of Tibetan, Hindu And Zen Masters

 

Written by Shushila Blackman. An acquaintance of mine who's husband was a good friend of mine shortly after she died of cancer. He shared her story with me and it's amazing as well. She also was a great being and I get tears of bliss just thinking about her now. Wow.... She's great!

 

 

About that interpretation of the Jhanas.

 

I like what he says in the end:

For me, the fourth jhana is really the point, because it leads to one of the deep insights of the jhanas: that God is not in the fire, or the earthquake, or the flood. There's a tendency that all of us have to deify and thus idol-ize certain states. Oh, that gorgeous warmth of lighting candles. Oh, we were so high during that drum circle / yoga session / whatever, that was really it. But that's not it. It is what's always here; Ein Sof, everything. If it wasn't always here, it isn't it. Even the fourth jhana isn't it -- it's a state, with equanimity and focus that are conditioned, and thus pass away after a time. You can't cling to it either.

Ramana Maharshi said, "Let come what comes, let go what goes. See what remains." That is the essence of enlightenment right there, I'm telling you. The way leads nowhere. There is no state that is it. This is it; just this. Not feeling special about this, not feeling relaxed or wise or anything in particular -- although sometimes those feelings may arise in the wake of letting go. Just is.

Now, does that mean that mystical states -- including the jhanas themselves -- are without value? No, not at all. By fulfilling this spiritual seeker's wildest dreams of joy and rapture, the jhanas point to the limitations of states, chiefly their transient nature. And in my next post, I'll describe in some detail the benefits as well as the limitations of spiritual states of all kinds, mundane to marvelous. For now, I hope I've tempted some of you to consider jhana practice, because it can blow your mind, change your life, and offer new perspectives on the mind.

 

It's fine... but there is a 9th Jhana that is not an absorption and comes with Vipassana, that is directly related to seeing dependent origination and emptiness experientially, the first noble truth of "Right View". This transcends an ultimate identity, or an abiding Self of all and transcends an absorption state as it's the realization of the inherently uncompounded nature of all that arises, even consciousness, no matter what it is, the experience of liberation ensues due to seeing through with this level of contemplation.

 

It's interesting, I know Elizabeth Gilbert who wrote Eat, Pray, Love which he mentions, as she was a practitioner of Siddha Yoga, a path that I grew up in my entire life having many levels of absorption experiences and waking samadhis with that kundalini practice, until coming to Buddhism and Vajrayana specifically, which sobers that stuff up and gives it more of an open, objective perspective. Hinduism seems to want to place an identity on a state, calling one or the other an ultimate state or an experience of the ultimate, the creator of all things that all beings are "one" with. Buddhism say's that they all arise dependently and are conditioned since beginningless time, even the state of infinite consciousness, or beyond being and non-being is a condition and only a seemingly unlimited limitation. There is no primal cause, or a final state, only a final realization.

 

The 9th Jhana is Vajrasamadhi, it's neither here nor there. It's mentioned in the Pali Suttas as the state of cessation, or Nirvana which can only be realized through understanding the first of the 8 fold noble path which is right view. This right view is not taught in any other religion. All other religions teach a basis to the cosmos, while Buddhism empties that concept which is conditioned by a certain level of experience that one identifies with as "The Source" of existence. Thus Buddhism is really not a metaphysics where one reverses the cycle of creation from out to in. So, it is not an absorption path, other than using the absorptions as part of the path, but not to attain a final and true Self of all, but rather to recognize how deep conditioning goes.

 

A good description of the Jhanas actually exists on Wikipedia... if you haven't read it, it's not long:

Jhanas on Wiki

 

Take care

 

Nice! Where is the instructional manual for this? I NEED IT.

*edit - link to Shinzen article.

 

I realized this through making love for a number of years with a yogini. We would go into the yab yum position at times, and I would relax more and more deeply into the desire to ejaculate, and I would do intense breathing which would heat up my body, plus I would repeat a mantra that I had used many years in meditation to integrate a deep state of meditation with the sexual energy, and I would at times just focus on my crown or 3rd eye to draw the energy up, with breath. It's subtle and internal. I would contemplate the dependent and empty nature of the experience in order to free it of grasping conditions.

 

It also helped to read Daniel Cozorts... Highest Yoga Tantra

 

After the sexual experience, I would feel the state of liberation long afterwards. I felt like karmas were being burnt instead of made through the sexual experience.

 

 

 

I am quite pagan, earthy and celebrate my animal nature.

 

 

So your not interested in integrating the nature that is beyond birth and death with the body?

 

One still is aware of the body instincts, but is not identified with them or suffers with them.

 

Many of the so called animal instincts are just there from past lives, in lodged deep in the psyche. They are not really natural, just habit patterns that are karmic blockages. But, one can still experience them in a liberated manor. You probably have an idea about Buddhism that makes you think that you'd repress things? Buddhism isn't about repression, it's about unlocking potential and understanding limitations.

 

But... to each their own.

 

*edit - link to Shinzen article.

 

This is a very nice article of practice and a good reminder. Thanks for this!

Edited September 11, 2009 by Vajrahridaya

[markern]

Nice! Where is the instructional manual for this? I NEED IT.

*edit - link to Shinzen article.

 

I just have to recomend everyone take a look at shinzens various articles on other related topics as well. I thnk they are incredibly good.

[markern]

Well, according to Vajrayana one can attain liberation in the bardo no matter what state of body your in, sick, dead..., dismembered, whatever. It's about the mind! Of course if you want to function your enlightenment through your body, it helps to integrate with a healthy body. But there are plenty of examples of great beings who died with very sick bodies but totally illumined minds!! A wonderful book is....

Link to Amazon display of GRACEFUL EXITS: HOW GREAT BEINGS DIE: Death Stories Of Tibetan, Hindu And Zen Masters

 

Written by Shushila Blackman. An acquaintance of mine who's husband was a good friend of mine shortly after she died of cancer. He shared her story with me and it's amazing as well. She also was a great being and I get tears of bliss just thinking about her now. Wow.... She's great!

About that interpretation of the Jhanas.

 

I like what he says in the end:

It's fine... but there is a 9th Jhana that is not an absorption and comes with Vipassana, that is directly related to seeing dependent origination and emptiness experientially, the first noble truth of "Right View". This transcends an ultimate identity, or an abiding Self of all and transcends an absorption state as it's the realization of the inherently uncompounded nature of all that arises, even consciousness, no matter what it is, the experience of liberation ensues due to seeing through with this level of contemplation.

 

It's interesting, I know Elizabeth Gilbert who wrote Eat, Pray, Love which he mentions, as she was a practitioner of Siddha Yoga, a path that I grew up in my entire life having many levels of absorption experiences and waking samadhis with that kundalini practice, until coming to Buddhism and Vajrayana specifically, which sobers that stuff up and gives it more of an open, objective perspective. Hinduism seems to want to place an identity on a state, calling one or the other an ultimate state or an experience of the ultimate, the creator of all things that all beings are "one" with. Buddhism say's that they all arise dependently and are conditioned since beginningless time, even the state of infinite consciousness, or beyond being and non-being is a condition and only a seemingly unlimited limitation. There is no primal cause, or a final state, only a final realization.

 

The 9th Jhana is Vajrasamadhi, it's neither here nor there. It's mentioned in the Pali Suttas as the state of cessation, or Nirvana which can only be realized through understanding the first of the 8 fold noble path which is right view. This right view is not taught in any other religion. All other religions teach a basis to the cosmos, while Buddhism empties that concept which is conditioned by a certain level of experience that one identifies with as "The Source" of existence. Thus Buddhism is really not a metaphysics where one reverses the cycle of creation from out to in. So, it is not an absorption path, other than using the absorptions as part of the path, but not to attain a final and true Self of all, but rather to recognize how deep conditioning goes.

 

A good description of the Jhanas actually exists on Wikipedia... if you haven't read it, it's not long:

Jhanas on Wiki

 

Take care

I realized this through making love for a number of years with a yogini. We would go into the yab yum position at times, and I would relax more and more deeply into the desire to ejaculate, and I would do intense breathing which would heat up my body, plus I would repeat a mantra that I had used many years in meditation to integrate a deep state of meditation with the sexual energy, and I would at times just focus on my crown or 3rd eye to draw the energy up, with breath. It's subtle and internal. I would contemplate the dependent and empty nature of the experience in order to free it of grasping conditions.

 

It also helped to read Daniel Cozorts... Highest Yoga Tantra

 

After the sexual experience, I would feel the state of liberation long afterwards. I felt like karmas were being burnt instead of made through the sexual experience.

So your not interested in integrating the nature that is beyond birth and death with the body?

 

One still is aware of the body instincts, but is not identified with them or suffers with them.

 

Many of the so called animal instincts are just there from past lives, in lodged deep in the psyche. They are not really natural, just habit patterns that are karmic blockages. But, one can still experience them in a liberated manor. You probably have an idea about Buddhism that makes you think that you'd repress things? Buddhism isn't about repression, it's about unlocking potential and understanding limitations.

 

But... to each their own.

This is a very nice article of practice and a good reminder. Thanks for this!

 

I read parts of her book this summer. She talked about entering the Turiya state a couple of times. I understood it to be enlightenment srt of like first path. Is that correct? And do you think she actualy experienced it or just cnfused some jhana state with the real thing like that guy who wrote the article said he did with the contentment of the third jhana?

 

I am also wondering if you could say a bit more about the Siddha yoga system. In vipassana you have a clear map of the consentration states and how to go from one to the other. You also have a clear understanding of how concentration practices differ from insight practice, what exactly it is that insight practice does that gets you enlightened and how the insight cycle unfolds from begining to end. Whenever I read about yogic systems it is almost always presented as raise the kundalini and then somehow get enlgitened or just do mantra practice and lots of yoga and pranayama and somehow get enligtened. There never seems to be any meaningfull teachings on insight practice other than the ocational hint here and there from a teacher if you get lucky. I can understand how advaita works because as I understand it it works sort of like zen or dzogchen like an insight practice. Advaita seems to give people some tools that do not just lead to concentrating on a mantra or playing with energy, but I just don`t get what hey are trying to do with the other practices. Rasing kundalini I get but just concentrating on a mantra etc. does not make sense to me. When I have asked people who follow yogic systems that seem quite like siddha yoga they look at me like I am a martian when I ask these questions, they have no idea what I am talking about. I have encountered people on the net thhough that know very well exactly what the stages of yogic concentrration states are and also how they categorise different states of enlightenment and I know a guy that has been mainly trained as a buddhist and said the instructions he got in raja yoga where almost identiccal to vipassana insight instructions so I know these things exist within yoga I just don`t get what the other people are doing.

 

Also as far as I could tell the authot got crappy instructions for meditation. She kept at it for two years with a mantra that no one ever thaught her how to actualy use as in how to be aware of it and relate to other taughts and images and how to coordinate or not to coordinate it with the breath etc. just the very basics. As I recal the instructions for the soham mantra were aso non existent.

[Mal]

Awareness and where it is and how it works is very important... any sensitive person will be able to feel where your attention is when they're open during sex...

 

Try having sex with all your attention on thoughts - thoughts about performance, is she enjoying this, am I doing this right, what if I do this, when should I do that, I wish she would do x etc etc... Any time I've had sex in this mode, I've been profoundly unsatisfied and so has my partner...

 

Try having sex with your attention focused between your perineum and belly button, and allow the feeling to over-take you. It's like you're channelling an inner part of you that is seldom allowed out.

 

As always the awesomeness of your posts is just incredible _/\_

 

Like Carlson said, sex and the reasons we want it changes so much over time, especially with long term partners. Something that really helped me was getting older and the associated slow down from the explosive teenager years and gaining some measure of experience. Lots of sexual experiences really helped me minimize that lusting desire for sex, we are all basically the same naked in the dark so it changes from a lust to a desire for loving intimate contact.

 

If I recall correctly, Dr. Morris said in his book the fastest one could reasonably expect to awaken Kundalini is 3 years and that's only if you spend hours each day dedicated to the practices! I don't have that kind of Pro Athlete style determination so it will likely be many years more than just 3.

There is no rush and the time frame can be much less with less practice if that is what you desire but don't worry about it.

 

I'm damaged goods when it comes to sex but I'm actually feeling more cheerful and hopeful about finding workable solutions than I have in ages.

 

Be confident in yourself because what we think we are. Orgasms are a natural function of the human body and easy to achieve. Yes they can be difficult for many people but a loving partner secure in themselves should enjoy such challenges I know I do

 

Seriously ponder Freeforms advice. While my partner didn't like Witch's book (diet changes, too lazy to try) I did and it has good advice that is easy to follow and helpfull for MANY people. But don't be too goal orientated, the entire event should be immensely pleasurable, from that first sparkle of the eye to the last smile of joyous pleasure.

 

There is lots of stuff you will learn on your journy. I like to remind myself that forums and talking about stuff moves MUCH quicker than practicing and actually doing it (at least for me) I too like Deer exercises, there is some absolutely awesome stuff in KAP 2 regarding sex but there is no rush and nothing to acheive.

 

Thread tangents are what we do here it's all good............

 

O.k. so you like O's at a D. I don't do them but I do this. While you are out and about when you see someone and they arouse you. Take that feeling, FEEL it, enjoy it, and send it back at them. Smile, make eye contact. See what happens.

 

This works really well with a loving / connecting mindset, for a contrast for guys try it with dirty adolescent boy lusty thoughts, you usually won't get a smile back so be careful....... Perhaps with girls trying lusty you will still get a smile from guys but love is a much nicer feeling IMHO and is almost always appreciated by others.

 

I know of people that can do no touch massage and energy connection over any distance. This is something I would like to do one day if that is on my path.

[Old Man Contradiction]

I think it is important to remember that enlightenment is not defined by states of bliss and ecstacy. Especially the process. Staring your problems in the eye can be painful, but that is how to wake up. Gotta taste the bitter before the sweet.

 

 

My question:

 

Without the ego, and with realizing truth... do you open up the space for blissful sexual union? If you are One, and not fooled by the appearance of separation. Is "tantric sex" a way of linking up your body with infinity?

[voidisyinyang]

I just listened to the new Mantak Chia interview linked at http://martialdevelopment.com -- he is very explicit that the orgasms must be increased and increased more and more -- but without ejaculation. That's the internal orgasm. Then at the end of the interview he's asked his secret for being a qigong master and he says he knows he connects with the infinite when he can feel heat in his lower tan tien. The lower tan tien is activated with that heat after the internal sex experience. I just did this myself with a female -- at a distance -- through a wall, over a hill.... haha.

 

Full-lotus is the way to go.

 

I think it is important to remember that enlightenment is not defined by states of bliss and ecstacy. Especially the process. Staring your problems in the eye can be painful, but that is how to wake up. Gotta taste the bitter before the sweet.

My question:

 

Without the ego, and with realizing truth... do you open up the space for blissful sexual union? If you are One, and not fooled by the appearance of separation. Is "tantric sex" a way of linking up your body with infinity?

[witch]

 

So your not interested in integrating the nature that is beyond birth and death with the body?

 

One still is aware of the body instincts, but is not identified with them or suffers with them.

 

Many of the so called animal instincts are just there from past lives, in lodged deep in the psyche. They are not really natural, just habit patterns that are karmic blockages. But, one can still experience them in a liberated manor. You probably have an idea about Buddhism that makes you think that you'd repress things? Buddhism isn't about repression, it's about unlocking potential and understanding limitations.

 

But... to each their own.

 

 

I don't believe in reincarnation or an afterlife. I don't think Buddhism is particularly repressive, just that its goals don't appeal to me. I think that suffering is a gift from the gods. As for a supernatural realm, I do believe in that. There is a time to live in the fourth, eighth and twelfth houses, but I am quite certain that my idea of those places is not what you would consider the nature beyond birth and death. All three have illusion mixed in them. The fourth is magic, particularly women's magic. The eighth is the occult and deals with one-on-one relationships and power and control. The twelfth is a place of dreams, dissolution and fantasy.

 

Each has their place in a balanced life, and depending on a person's chart they may do well dwelling longer than most in such places, but no one can live solely in the watery realms.

[Vajrahridaya]

I read parts of her book this summer. She talked about entering the Turiya state a couple of times. I understood it to be enlightenment srt of like first path. Is that correct? And do you think she actualy experienced it or just cnfused some jhana state with the real thing like that guy who wrote the article said he did with the contentment of the third jhana?

 

I can't really say, as I'm not her particular karmic make up... we are only of the same system, but different particles of it.

 

I can say that the mistake happens a lot. But, I can also say that a lot of high level experiences happen very fast in Siddha Yoga, but I know that the final attainment does not happen as often through any other system outside of Buddhism. Buddhism is the most clear and concise recording of everything that happens through spiritual practice as well as the amount of methods available. This is vast and would take lifetimes of study to accumulate the entirety of information available through the vast cannon of Buddhism.

 

I am also wondering if you could say a bit more about the Siddha yoga system. In vipassana you have a clear map of the consentration states and how to go from one to the other. You also have a clear understanding of how concentration practices differ from insight practice, what exactly it is that insight practice does that gets you enlightened and how the insight cycle unfolds from begining to end.

 

Yes, Buddhism is much more clearer of a map. No doubt.

 

Whenever I read about yogic systems it is almost always presented as raise the kundalini and then somehow get enlgitened or just do mantra practice and lots of yoga and pranayama and somehow get enligtened. There never seems to be any meaningfull teachings on insight practice other than the ocational hint here and there from a teacher if you get lucky. I can understand how advaita works because as I understand it it works sort of like zen or dzogchen like an insight practice. Advaita seems to give people some tools that do not just lead to concentrating on a mantra or playing with energy, but I just don`t get what hey are trying to do with the other practices. Rasing kundalini I get but just concentrating on a mantra etc. does not make sense to me. When I have asked people who follow yogic systems that seem quite like siddha yoga they look at me like I am a martian when I ask these questions, they have no idea what I am talking about. I have encountered people on the net thhough that know very well exactly what the stages of yogic concentrration states are and also how they categorise different states of enlightenment and I know a guy that has been mainly trained as a buddhist and said the instructions he got in raja yoga where almost identiccal to vipassana insight instructions so I know these things exist within yoga I just don`t get what the other people are doing.

 

They can be a bit similar, as it depends on the teacher and how much ability he or she has in expression. But, see Buddhism is specifically engineered to train people in the ability to express perfectly and concisely exactly what is going on from stage to stage. Dependent origination is the genius of a Buddha and it's insight leads to laying out the nuances of the stages of spiritual experience. I know other systems can explain certain things in very beneficial ways for certain people. But, I haven't come across as complete a system as Buddhism, especially Vajrayana and I'm barely scratching the surface. But, it's system of method and symbols are deeply intricate incorperating the ability to liberate every nuance of any persons particular neurosis through any level of explanation. Even if seemingly contradictory... they are pointing to the same liberation... vajrasamadhi. Vajrayana is probably the most nuanced system on the planet, bar none. The highest peaks on the planet saved the highest teachings on the planet for all of us.

 

Also as far as I could tell the author got crappy instructions for meditation. She kept at it for two years with a mantra that no one ever taught her how to actualy use as in how to be aware of it and relate to other thoughts and images and how to coordinate or not to coordinate it with the breath etc. just the very basics. As I recal the instructions for the soham mantra were aso non existent.

 

Actually if you read the entire canon of Muktananda, he goes into quite a bit of detail on how to concentrate and the meaning of the mantras, and how they apply elementally. But, you'd have to read every single book that he wrote. Which I happen to have done, about 100 of them, printed and out of print books. He's darn good for a Hindu who just gave lots of secret teachings to the public. But, Buddhism again is much more nuanced in available texts as well as just the core of philosophy as the formula of "pratityasamutpada" or interdependent origination is much more of a detailing format to view from... as in the first noble truth which transcends a primal source. Though who knows what those hidden Shaivites are hiding in their caves of the Himalayas as influenced by Vajrayana? Vajrayana is quite accessible now though, if you get initiation you will have access. The really good stuff is not available on Amazon. Only some of it is. Vajrayana cannon is vaaaaaast though.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Without the ego, and with realizing truth... do you open up the space for blissful sexual union? If you are One, and not fooled by the appearance of separation. Is "tantric sex" a way of linking up your body with infinity?

 

Well of course Mr. Contradiction.

 

 

Full-lotus is the way to go.

 

Yes, full lotus does open up the glandular system.

 

I think that suffering is a gift from the gods. As for a supernatural realm, I do believe in that. There is a time to live in the fourth, eighth and twelfth houses, but I am quite certain that my idea of those places is not what you would consider the nature beyond birth and death. All three have illusion mixed in them. The fourth is magic, particularly women's magic. The eighth is the occult and deals with one-on-one relationships and power and control. The twelfth is a place of dreams, dissolution and fantasy.

 

Each has their place in a balanced life, and depending on a person's chart they may do well dwelling longer than most in such places, but no one can live solely in the watery realms.

 

 

Hmmm, interesting. Ok. I personally like constant joy, no matter what happens. When there's inner joy, one does not project this sense of lack through secret subconscious manipulations of incoming information.

Edited September 12, 2009 by Vajrahridaya

[hyok]

I think i'm beginning to understand spiritual sexuality. It seems to me that a lot of what Eastern Schools of Thought teach are ways of coercing the mind into mimicking the functions of pro-creation within the parameters of the body and mind. I feel as if everything i'm learning right now is teaching me how to turn my body into a big giant cock, the spinal duct becoming the "main vein", if you will, and like an erect cock, the flow points upwards to the head as sexual energy breaches the mind and fills it with celestial mother's milk.

Edited September 12, 2009 by hyok

[Old Man Contradiction]

Be a dick, the way of the Tao.

[JustARandomPanda]

I can't really say, as I'm not her particular karmic make up... we are only of the same system, but different particles of it.

 

I can say that the mistake happens a lot. But, I can also say that a lot of high level experiences happen very fast in Siddha Yoga, but I know that the final attainment does not happen as often through any other system outside of Buddhism. Buddhism is the most clear and concise recording of everything that happens through spiritual practice as well as the amount of methods available. This is vast and would take lifetimes of study to accumulate the entirety of information available through the vast cannon of Buddhism.

Yes, Buddhism is much more clearer of a map. No doubt.

I've been listening to an audiobook recently. The Dalai Lama's How to Practice the Way to a Meaningful Life. It has some very nice exercises to practice daily. I especially like the practices that increase Compassion and Loving-Kindness.

 

I'm on the 4th (of 5) cds. I've been so surprised to hear him discuss all the things VH has been talking about these past few months when it comes to Buddhism. I just now got to the audio section where he talks about some of the differences Buddhism has with many of the other world religions. Especially about how other major world religions posit an Ultimate Divine but Buddhism does not. He also has a whole section on Dependent Origination!

 

I gotta say I have an easier time understanding Dependent Origination from the way the Dalai Lama explains it than I can from VH even though they're both explaining the exact same thing.

 

One thing I noticed about Buddhism (and to some extent this is also true of Taoism - especially the Alchemy parts) is it seems to be rooted in a kind of empiricism. That if you do A/B/C...you will get X/Y/Z results (barring some unforeseen interference or perhaps practicing wrong).

 

I think i'm beginning to understand spiritual sexuality. It seems to me that a lot of what Eastern Schools of Thought teach are ways of coercing the mind into mimicking the functions of pro-creation within the parameters of the body and mind. I feel as if everything i'm learning right now is teaching me how to turn my body into a big giant cock, the spinal duct becoming the "main vein", if you will, and like an erect cock, the flow points upwards to the head as sexual energy breaches the mind and fills it with celestial mother's milk.

 

hmm...

 

I wonder what it must feel like to be a big, spiritual dick...

 

I wonder if that is even possible for women? How can you really know what it feels like to be what you don't have?

[markern]

 

I wonder what it must feel like to be a big, spiritual dick...

 

 

 

 

 

I wonder if that is even possible for women? How can you really know what it feels like to be what you don't have?

 

 

HAHA. I`d say there are plenty of spiritual Dicks around.

 

Good old fashioned penis envy

 

No worries. You are suposed to be like a yoni I suppose, totaly open and receptive

Edited September 12, 2009 by markern

[everseeking]

The clitoris is the analogous structure to the male penis--both are erectile tissues. In fact, women who are body builders, that take androgen (male) hormones over time will experience a permanent enlargement of the clitoris. It can even look like a rather small penis eventually. The Vocal chords and the clitoris are both responsive to androgen hormones (testosterone), and once exposed to higher levels of it, they change, never to go back. Female to male transexuals get a deeper voice, (IIRC), and male to female transexuals have to 'fake' their higher, more feminine voice.

 

FYI.

[Trunk]

I gotta say I have an easier time understanding Dependent Origination from the way the Dalai Lama explains it than I can from VH even though they're both explaining the exact same thing.

I've had a similar thing happen w/ a teacher I studied with: couldn't understand him, much flew over my head. Now I've done some studying of same stuff from other sources and have been re-listening to his talks: it all makes sense.

[xabir2005]

I understood it to be enlightenment srt of like first path. Is that correct?

It's easier to first get a basic definition of what Turiya is:

 

"turIya means that which is the fourth. The experiencers (jIva-s) of the three states of waking, dreaming and deep sleep, known as vishva, taijasa and praj~nA, who wander successively in these three states, are not the Self. It is with the object of making this clear, namely that the Self is that which is different from them and which is the witness of these states, that it is called the fourth (turIya). When this is known, the three experiencers disappear and the idea that the Self is a witness, that it is the fourth, also disappears. That is why the Self is described as beyond the fourth (turyatita)."

 

(from, "Spiritual Instruction" no. 8, Ramana Maharshi.)

 

Turiya is not the same as first path (Sotapanna or stream entry). Turiya is actually not in the Theravada Buddhist insight maps, whether the 16 nanas or the 4 paths. It is not included in it. That is not to say that it is not an important experience and insight, however if you are practicing vipassana in the traditional (such as the Mahasi Sayadaw way) you'll not come into this territory, since the focus is solely the observation of the three characteristics of phenomena (impermanence, suffering, no self), nothing about abiding as an eternal witness. However if you look into the Thai forest tradition as opposed to the Myanmar traditions, then yes, they do talk about the Witness. However in the old Pali suttas, or the Myanmar style vipassana practitioners, they do not talk about realising Witness or Turiya (though they did mention about luminous mind but very little emphasis on that).

 

In the classic Theravadin, Visuddhimagga, or Mahasi style vipassana you'll discover the impermanence of all sensations at a microscopic level and deconstruct any sense of 'self' or identifications by seeing sensations as they are (perceiving their three characteristics), however it is not a form of dissociative witnessing (though some might practice this way, but I'm talking about the way the Buddha taught it) such that by observing impermanent sensations one then lets go of the 'not selves' and discovers a true self as an eternal observer. In Vipassana one observes sensations as they are without the attempt to separate the observer from the observed, or in Buddha's words we observe the body in the body, observe the feelings in feelings, observe the mind in the mind. In other words not observe the mind as a separate watcher, but rather it is thought watching thought or the watcher is the thought. Not 'me' observing sensations, but just sensations itself, transient, not-self, not-other-than-self (i.e. not an object opposed to an ultimate witness), and dissatisfactory.

 

When a practitioner attains fruition and enters first path through the practice of Vipassana, there is a moment of total cessation. It is not Pure Awareness, it is not discovering a Witness or anything related to the Hindu realisation. It is not discovering the luminous nature of consciousness. Rather there is a total stopping, cessation of the mind and body, and that is defined as the fruition experience (non-experience) in Theravada.

 

Whereas, experiencing Turiya is about discovering and experiencing the innermost consciousness, the core of your being, the pure luminous awareness, which the Hindus called the Self. When this is first realized, the luminous awareness, the pure sense of presence, being, existence, still appears separate from all transient experiences. It appears as an unchanging Witness apart from all that is witnessed.

 

Deeper realizations are required before one realizes that this 'Witness' is in fact, not other than all the transient experiences itself. Hence Awareness is experienced as vividly and intensely and equally in all sensations without reifying a separate self or observer. One sees that in seeing there is actually no seer seeing -- there is just sceneries. In hearing, just sounds, no hearer. In thinking, just thoughts, no thinker or watcher of thoughts. Then one realises non-duality and anatta. Non-duality (no subject-object) becomes realised and experienced in real-time (as in throughout and in the midst of daily life) when one reaches the third path, before third path there is not that much changes in daily lives apart from the momentary cessation experience, though one begins to understand the dharma more deeply than before.

 

Also whether Turiyatita (beyond the fourth, beyond Turiya) is equivalent to any of the paths is another matter, but suffice to say in my understanding although some Hindus do realise the non-dual nature of reality beyond the Witness, they do not go far enough to deconstruct the 'Self' and realize that there is no Absolute Self even though unified with its manifestations, that 'Awareness' is simply all arising sensations according to conditions. Realising Non-Duality of subject and object does not mean No-Self is fully penetrated. This is the difference between "Thusness Stage 4" and "Thusness Stage 5 & 6"

 

On the stages of experience you can refer to Thusness/PasserBy's Seven Stages of Experience on Spiritual Enlightenment -- written by a friend who first realized the I AM/Eternal Witness through Hindu-like style of self-inquiry, before coming across Buddhism and contemplating no-self in the vipassana way, and realising no-self and emptiness (stage 4 onwards).

 

Hope all these are not very confusing. It is not easy to try to fit Hindu and the classic Theravadin maps together. They go through different experiences. Many might say Turiya is a high formless jhana, and yes the Turiya is the objectless and formless experience of pure consciousness but I don't think it is as simple as simply a jhanic state, as it is not merely a state with entry and exit but also a deep realisation about our innermost consciousness. There are other theories about it being some jhana beyond the 8 jhanas but yet not nirvana (like some realm in between not spoken by Buddha), but I digress. I would simply see it as realising and experiencing the luminous (cognisant) aspect of our nature -- but there are many aspects, like the non-dual, empty, aspect which also needs to be realised.

Edited September 12, 2009 by xabir2005