Taoism and alcohol

[Old Man Contradiction]

Right now, i'm 19yrs old, I don't drink alcohol. I'm not sure if even the smallest amount would negatively impact the neural and neuro-muscular connections I'm developing in yichuan/taiji. I think Lao Tzu's nondual teachings would simply allow alcohol to be as it is, and is probably indifferent to drinking it. By the way, I am referring to natural alcohols... non-fortified, non-distilled, and non-genetically modified yeasts. What do you believe?

[wudangspirit]

Well non-fortified all natural, non-distilled alcohol may kill you anyway. There is a reason for the process so it's drinkable. Don't know much about it though.

 

Actually moderation is best. If you want a drink have a drink but don't make it a habit. You're not living in a temple where you're performing purity rites everyday.

 

However, some levels of alcohol are healthy for digestion and metabolism. That being said. If you don't want to drink, don't drink. Whatever is your preheaven nature.

 

We had a story of the drunken immortal. Just had an affinity with alcohol. It is what it is.

 

 

 

 

Right now, i'm 19yrs old, I don't drink alcohol. I'm not sure if even the smallest amount would negatively impact the neural and neuro-muscular connections I'm developing in yichuan/taiji. I think Lao Tzu's nondual teachings would simply allow alcohol to be as it is, and is probably indifferent to drinking it. By the way, I am referring to natural alcohols... non-fortified, non-distilled, and non-genetically modified yeasts. What do you believe?

[Old Man Contradiction]

Well non-fortified all natural, non-distilled alcohol may kill you anyway. There is a reason for the process so it's drinkable. Don't know much about it though.

 

Actually moderation is best. If you want a drink have a drink but don't make it a habit. You're not living in a temple where you're performing purity rites everyday.

 

However, some levels of alcohol are healthy for digestion and metabolism. That being said. If you don't want to drink, don't drink. Whatever is your preheaven nature.

 

We had a story of the drunken immortal. Just had an affinity with alcohol. It is what it is.

 

I'm going to pay more attention to your posts. All I can say is that I believe what you say, and not because I want to.

 

What is it that is said in the movie Peaceful Warrior?

 

"The habit is the problem. All you have to do is be conscious about your decisions, and responsible for your actions."

 

and

 

"Every action has it's price and it's pleasure. Recognizing both sides the warrior becomes realistic and responsible for his actions"

[Marblehead]

Yeah, there were supposedly some heavy-drinking Toaists who really love their rice wine back in the old days. Wudangspirit said the magic word: moderation.

 

I still drink red wine on occasion (Lambrusco).

 

I see nothing wrong with drinking socially or for relaxation after a hard day.

 

But then, it can be habit-forming so one should "drink responsibly".

 

Happy Trails!

[Nanashi]

[hyok]

I can't imagine hard liquor being desirable in any way for a practitioner. That stuff is straight-up poison.

 

Saki or beer in moderation, meaning once in a while.

 

Although who knows, man. I'm coming to realize everybody's minds and bodies are the same but completely different at the same time. Like I know this guy who smokes pot and drinks every-single-day, but he goes to sleep at 2am and wakes up 6am and he seems fine. I'd been waiting for the long-term abuse to seap through his body from the inside out, like some kind of ulcer or chest pains or some shiet, but its been 15 years and it hasn't happened and he still seems fine.

 

And then there's the story of someone who drank a beer and died. Life is weird, man.

[~jK~]

Right now, i'm 19yrs old, I don't drink alcohol. I'm not sure if even the smallest amount would negatively impact the neural and neuro-muscular connections I'm developing in yichuan/taiji. I think Lao Tzu's nondual teachings would simply allow alcohol to be as it is, and is probably indifferent to drinking it. By the way, I am referring to natural alcohols... non-fortified, non-distilled, and non-genetically modified yeasts. What do you believe?

 

Alcoholic drinks enjoy a strange place in history as the people that drank it, instead of the diseased water, did not get the diseases ithe water carried - simply because the distilled spirits were made pure by boiling it.

Even the water used to make beer & wine was boiled to avoid the sugars being converted into vinegar instead of alcohol.

 

 

The reality of alcohol is that it is the feces of a bacteria called yeast.

The lesson to learn from it is that Television tells many lies.

A key point in learning is to avoid the conditioning of lies

 

Confuscious said: "to see the future, study the past."

I find that it works with understanding the present too.

 

As to "Taoism and alcohol" The Chinese rarely, if ever, drink.

It is not unusual for a drunk driver that kills to be sentenced to death

Drunk driver gets death http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/cndy/2009-07/...ent_8471594.htm

Edited September 11, 2009 by ~jK~

[Gerard]

We had a story of the drunken immortal. Just had an affinity with alcohol. It is what it is.

 

Another Chinese legend.

 

 

My opinion:

 

Definitively a no-no thing if you care about LIVER QI STAGNATION. No legend here

Edited September 10, 2009 by durkhrod chogori

[Ya Mu]

Pay attention to the side effects!

[VCraigP]

The Chinese rarely, if ever, drink.

 

Massive sweeping generalization alert.

 

I don't disagree with anything in your post, but come on man. The Chinese DO DRINK.

 

They have beer which is very weak, and white alcohol which is very strong, among other things.

 

all of which is beside the point of the initial question, but I have to call you on this really inaccurate comment about a whole people.

 

Craig

[Aetherous]

There is absolutely no problem with having a beer every day or two. Or even a couple sometimes. Especially if this is in your genes, like myself, with German roots. And especially if you're laughing with friends during it.

[Ya Mu]

...

As to "Taoism and alcohol" The Chinese rarely, if ever, drink.

...

Don't know where you got that impression...

 

 

...

They have beer which is very weak, and white alcohol which is very strong, among other things.

...

Craig

Very strong? How about 440 high performance WOW straight 10,000 proof white lightning- and they told me it was wine.

Actually found a few good beers - considered it safer at the time than drinking water...

Edited September 10, 2009 by Ya Mu

[Baguakid]

Yeah, the Chinese drink beer, smoke cigarettes, and drink what's called BaiJiu (white alcohol). It's fun to watch Taiji practitioners or martial artists take a break in the park and have a cigarette between training sessions.

 

Every time I go back to China I bring my Bagua Shifu a bottle of Tequila (Don Julio) which he very much enjoys.

 

Personally, I don't drink or smoke.

[Bum Grasshopper]

Alcoholic drinks enjoy a strange place in history as the people that drank it, instead of the diseased water, did not get the diseases ithe water carried - simply because the distilled spirits were made pure by boiling it.

Even the water used to make beer & wine was boiled to avoid the sugars being converted into vinegar instead of alcohol.

The reality of alcohol is that it is the feces of a bacteria called yeast.

The lesson to learn from it is that Television tells many lies.

A key point in learning is to avoid the conditioning of lies

 

Confuscious said: "to see the future, study the past."

I find that it works with understanding the present too.

 

As to "Taoism and alcohol" The Chinese rarely, if ever, drink.

It is not unusual for a drunk driver that kills to be sentenced to death.

 

 

1. Alcohol is a product of civilization. The first crops ever cultivated was believed to be by the Sumarians. It was barley to make beer. Egyptians held beer in high regard calling it the "nectar of the gods". Many recipes have been found on pyramid walls as well as remnants of dried beer left for afterlife consumption. In the middle ages, if you drank alcohol, you lived. If you drank water, you died.

 

2. When yeasts (yeasts are not a bacteria, but rather unique organisms that display both plant and animal characteristics) consume sugar, the byproducts are alcohol and carbon dioxide. If bacteria are allowed, they consume the alcohol and turn it into vinegar. Alcohol and vinegar are both preservatives. This is a natural process called fermentation. It not only gives us beer and wine, but also pickles, sauerkraut, miso, fish sauce as well as a myriad of other foods that are protected from harmful pathogens. If beer or wine is distilled, the alcohol evaporates first, giving us ethanol, a solvent used in many tinctures and medicines. Also used for fuel.

 

 

3. Every culture has had an intoxicating drug of choice. The eastern culture, before getting westernized, were big into opium. Native Americans used psychoactive mushrooms, cannabis and tobacco. We also seem to demonize any drug other than the drug of choice.

 

My take is that fermentation is a gift of the tao. It should be used wisely.

[mattmiddleton]

very interesting. Often, I have wondered about opium, and if, perhaps in light of the British borne craze of the 19th century, any Taoists ever succumbed to the drug. And whether its strange soothing effects ever, now this is just a curiosity, in the mind of a taoist, lent itself to the still , dead ashes quietism that taoist philosophy holds dear. Ive also wondered if there ever was a daoist branch that smoked it. of course, ive asked this very question on another taosim forum and they laughed me outta town because --opium is an 'external' influence and that it leads to a desire and craving for the external. Thoughts?

[~jK~]

Massive sweeping generalization alert.

 

I don't disagree with anything in your post, but come on man. The Chinese DO DRINK.

 

They have beer which is very weak, and white alcohol which is very strong, among other things.

 

all of which is beside the point of the initial question, but I have to call you on this really inaccurate comment about a whole people.

 

Craig

 

Mein un Mein bak: rarely if ever ?

 

I think that I have just been reminded how much I really dislike even simple conversations with christian minded drunks.

Edited September 11, 2009 by ~jK~

[~jK~]

very interesting. Often, I have wondered about opium, and if, perhaps in light of the British borne craze of the 19th century, any Taoists ever succumbed to the drug. And whether its strange soothing effects ever, now this is just a curiosity, in the mind of a taoist, lent itself to the still , dead ashes quietism that taoist philosophy holds dear. Ive also wondered if there ever was a daoist branch that smoked it. of course, ive asked this very question on another taosim forum and they laughed me outta town because --opium is an 'external' influence and that it leads to a desire and craving for the external. Thoughts?

 

U guys got a lot of strange ideas.

Read history.

 

After defeating China with gunships, that Emperess Cixi. did not see the reason to build and taking posession of Hong Kong -The British paid all workers in opium. Anyone that could not tolerate the hunger pains smoked Opium to stop the pain.

 

The British then took the money and what could be valued back to England.

 

Soon China was out of cash.

 

Opium became the cash.

 

Forget reading, watch TV: The above led to an addiction rate of more than 90% of the population.

Watch the video: The Ascent of Money Part 6 It's in about the first 15 min.

http://video.google.com.au/videoplay?docid...oney&hl=en#

[hyok]

very interesting. Often, I have wondered about opium, and if, perhaps in light of the British borne craze of the 19th century, any Taoists ever succumbed to the drug. And whether its strange soothing effects ever, now this is just a curiosity, in the mind of a taoist, lent itself to the still , dead ashes quietism that taoist philosophy holds dear. Ive also wondered if there ever was a daoist branch that smoked it. of course, ive asked this very question on another taosim forum and they laughed me outta town because --opium is an 'external' influence and that it leads to a desire and craving for the external. Thoughts?

 

I've only seen "dead ash" reference once, and that was in the Secret of The Golden Flower in regards to making mistakes when attempting to circulate the light. Images of dead ashes form when the mind of the practitioner is engaged in too many entanglements. This is true, as well as images of bloody flesh.

Edited September 11, 2009 by hyok

[mattmiddleton]

U guys got a lot of strange ideas.

Read history.

 

After defeating China with gunships, that Emperess Cixi. did not see the reason to build and taking posession of Hong Kong -The British paid all workers in opium. Anyone that could not tolerate the hunger pains smoked Opium to stop the pain.

 

The British then took the money and what could be valued back to England.

 

Soon China was out of cash.

 

Opium became the cash.

 

Forget reading, watch TV: The above led to an addiction rate of more than 90% of the population.

Watch the video: The Ascent of Money Part 6 It's in about the first 15 min.

http://video.google.com.au/videoplay?docid...oney&hl=en#

 

 

yeah exactly, British borne opium craze slash wages.

[Goddodin]

Getting back to the alcohol point, I think it's ultimately personal preference. Most important thing is that you are making an informed choice and are mindful/aware of how it effects you, imo. No point denying yourself a moderate, occasional pleasure just because the Chinese may or may not indulge. As rich a source of wisdom Taoism and other Eastern traditions are, you may need to consider context when applying elements of them to western lives.

 

Similarly though you need to be honest with yourself; a lot of my friends/family kid themselves they have a healthy, moderate relationship with alcohol when they have actually let it pretty much rule their lives.... but that's a longer post.

[Old Man Contradiction]

ive asked this very question on another taosim forum and they laughed me outta town because --opium is an 'external' influence and that it leads to a desire and craving for the external. Thoughts?

 

The desire and craving is in the mind initially. Let the mind rest and you'd be free from it's craving. On that path you could never reach the point of the body being addicted. Even at that point, a very present, enlightened being, could see the pain as it is, without resisting it. Just let it be. Soon enough the addiction would be gone.

[CarsonZi]

The desire and craving is in the mind initially. Let the mind rest and you'd be free from it's craving. On that path you could never reach the point of the body being addicted. Even at that point, a very present, enlightened being, could see the pain as it is, without resisting it. Just let it be. Soon enough the addiction would be gone.

 

Not to contradict you Old Man Contradiction but this isn't totally true with all drugs....opium (and all opiates) being one of these drugs. Take it from someone who knows from experience. Several years of opiate experimentation leading to 4 years as an IV heroin addict and 4 more on the methadone program, and I can say from experience that even if you can rid your mind of the craving for opiates, once you hit a certain point physically, it doesn't matter anymore. The body requires it to function. If you do opiates with consistancy in order to further oneself on one's Path, it will soon no longer matter whether or not your mind desires it.......your body will require it. Take it from one who knows.

 

Love,

Carson

[~jK~]

Not to contradict you Old Man Contradiction but this isn't totally true with all drugs....opium (and all opiates) being one of these drugs. Take it from someone who knows from experience. Several years of opiate experimentation leading to 4 years as an IV heroin addict and 4 more on the methadone program, and I can say from experience that even if you can rid your mind of the craving for opiates, once you hit a certain point physically, it doesn't matter anymore. The body requires it to function. If you do opiates with consistancy in order to further oneself on one's Path, it will soon no longer matter whether or not your mind desires it.......your body will require it. Take it from one who knows.

 

Love,

Carson

 

Excellent post CarsonZi.

 

I worked 4 years in a drug & alcohol hospital where people could come in only if they were seen to be either a danger to themself or others. All doors to the outside were locked.

 

Alcohol is a poison to the body that must be detoxed by the liver before it can be used by the body. The form it comes out as - has the same effect as morphine.

 

This is to say that people that are addicted to morphine are addicted to drinking alcohol.

When the alcohol reaches a point that it spills out of the liver, it destroys the brain.

[Old Man Contradiction]

Not to contradict you Old Man Contradiction but this isn't totally true with all drugs....opium (and all opiates) being one of these drugs. Take it from someone who knows from experience. Several years of opiate experimentation leading to 4 years as an IV heroin addict and 4 more on the methadone program, and I can say from experience that even if you can rid your mind of the craving for opiates, once you hit a certain point physically, it doesn't matter anymore. The body requires it to function. If you do opiates with consistancy in order to further oneself on one's Path, it will soon no longer matter whether or not your mind desires it.......your body will require it. Take it from one who knows.

 

Love,

Carson

 

no worries Carson, I had hoped that you'd share your insights on this thread.

 

I don't believe our statements are in complete contradiction.

 

I was just trying to separate psychological and physical addiction. Psychological addiction can be let go of. It's just seemed to me that it would be difficult for someone who has no attachments to mind, first become psychologically attached to a drug, and then continue to use it to the point of physical addiction. Of course I don't know.

 

My experience with physically addictive drugs is limited, but my experience was that my thoughts perpetuated my desire, which could have turned into more use and an eventual physical dependency.

 

Letting go of the mind would have stopped the process at the beginning. I may be wrong for other people here, so I'll rephrase anything that I unconsciously misrepresented as concrete fact.

[mattmiddleton]

no worries Carson, I had hoped that you'd share your insights on this thread.

 

I don't believe our statements are in complete contradiction.

 

I was just trying to separate psychological and physical addiction. Psychological addiction can be let go of. It's just seemed to me that it would be difficult for someone who has no attachments to mind, first become psychologically attached to a drug, and then continue to use it to the point of physical addiction. Of course I don't know.

 

My experience with physically addictive drugs is limited, but my experience was that my thoughts perpetuated my desire, which could have turned into more use and an eventual physical dependency.

 

Letting go of the mind would have stopped the process at the beginning. I may be wrong for other people here, so I'll rephrase anything that I unconsciously misrepresented as concrete fact.

 

Yep, this subject may be a little off topic and there are many forums out there for it ha ha! My question in the beginning, & sorry to jump on your thread there though old man contradiction, was if anyone knew of any reported opiate use amongst chinese daoists, or if it was totally shunned. But i doubt there wold be much info aside from personal/anecdotal evidence so ill leave it be..anyways, yeah, re alcohol - i think Chen Man Ching, the great taiji master who taught in the west in the 1960s/70s liked to have a shot or two of whiskey before he would emabrk on some calligraphy..and the great Tang poets would sing the virtues of wine many many times!