The jhanas

[markern]

So, does anyne have ersonal experience with the Jhanas? And if you have experienced them are you able to reenter them in daily life. Do you know to what a degree it is possible to regulary access jhanas up to say the 4th in daily life or is retreat almost always necesary for that?

[goldisheavy]

So, does anyne have ersonal experience with the Jhanas? And if you have experienced them are you able to reenter them in daily life. Do you know to what a degree it is possible to regulary access jhanas up to say the 4th in daily life or is retreat almost always necesary for that?

 

Jhanas are the Buddhist version of the 3rd eye and chakra nonsense. All phenomena are meditative already. All states are absorptions. All absorptions are distractions. If you don't understand this, you need more contemplation. And if you do understand this, you don't need to meditate at all.

 

Basically Jhanas do not exist absolutely. They are very briefly described, with only about 3 lines of text per Jhana in the Suttas. On top of this, every Buddhist master feels free to add their fantasy to this, and sorry, but Arhats are still illusory beings with ridiculous flights of fancy at all times, so no, there is nothing reliable "out there". At best people can give you an interesting idea, an approach you can attempt for yourself. But it is yourself that will do the walking, the feeling, the thinking, the absorbing and so forth and not those other beings.

 

If you are a unique being, experiences of others do not apply to you. But if you are the same as others, then if any being on earth has achieved Jhana, that should be sufficient for you as well, and you should be happy, because if you are the same, what serves one serves all. If something serves one person but not another, you're not the same, you are unique, go back to step 1 above. This line of thinking is not very precise, because for the same of simplicity I've indulged some extremist ideas here. For example I split the space under analysis via a clear same vs not-same divide. In reality such clear divide can be found to be simplistic, but this should still get your contemplation started so that you will become liberated from the yoke of others upon your mind and intent.

 

Meditative absorptions are real. They are unique and not really repeatable. If you think any phenomenon is repeatable, then you don't understand what Buddha said about anatma, the lack of self in any and all phenomena. If something was repeatable, it would mean it had a consistent and abiding self-nature. This is clearly not Buddha's doctrine at all. To describe an absorption by placing a number on it, like 2nd Jhana and so forth is nothing short of idiotic.

Edited September 12, 2009 by goldisheavy

[markern]

 

 

Meditative absorptions are real. They are unique and not really repeatable. If you think any phenomenon is repeatable, then you don't understand what Buddha said about anatma, the lack of self in any and all phenomena. If something was repeatable, it would mean it had a consistent and abiding self-nature. This is clearly not Buddha's doctrine at all. To describe an absorption by placing a number on it, like 2nd Jhana and so forth is nothing short of idiotic.

 

So why did the Buddha do just that, put a number on it.

 

It is self evident that every experience is unique and in a way not repeatable. But still for all practical purposes there is absolutely meaning in talking about repeating certain sates and experiences. With a state of one pointed concentration charachterized by rapture, light etc. etc. that is largely the same as last time and the hundred last times and that can be differentiated from a couple of closely related but different states, it is meaningfull to give this state a name and talk about "repeating it". Especialy if such a sate is usefull in certain ways. No one thinks that you are almost going back in time to the same exact experience. You are just making unecesary difficulties out of the limitiations that lie in language. I`m sorry but I find this about as usefull as someone interupting a very concstructive discussions about how to meditate well with bulshit like how can you achieve what you realy are etc. placed completly ut of context.

Edited September 12, 2009 by markern

[JustARandomPanda]

I don't see anything wrong about asking other people for their Jhana experiences and what steps they may have taken to attain them without attaching to them. In any case...if people *really* believed nothing was repeatable (true random chaos) then neither teachers nor students would exist. Lao Tzu, Plato nor the Buddha would have bothered to pass on what they learned and no one would have cared nor bothered to ask. Neither would books exist. Or instructional videos. Or apprenticeships, etc.

 

I would like to learn of other people's experiences but I still know full well that the Map is Not the Territory.

[xabir2005]

So, does anyne have ersonal experience with the Jhanas? And if you have experienced them are you able to reenter them in daily life. Do you know to what a degree it is possible to regulary access jhanas up to say the 4th in daily life or is retreat almost always necesary for that?

Yes, have had some experiences with them. No, did not re enter them in daily life. It is not possible actually. Shamatha jhanas require total one pointed concentration on a single object to the exclusion of everything else. It is possible only in deep meditation, not in daily life. However yes with practice one can 'master' jhanas in the sense that one can be able to enter them easily in meditation even if you are not in a retreat.

 

However, we can practice vipassana and experience insight and clarity even in daily life. This is because vipassana does not require concentration on a single conceptual object solidified with strong mental stability to the exclusion to everything else. Any sensate reality, like the flow of breathing sensations, bodily sensations, or anything... we can observe in vipassana.

Edited September 12, 2009 by xabir2005

[markern]

Yes, have had some experiences with them. No, did not re enter them in daily life. It is not possible actually. Shamatha jhanas require total one pointed concentration on a single object to the exclusion of everything else. It is possible only in deep meditation, not in daily life. However yes with practice one can 'master' jhanas in the sense that one can be able to enter them easily in meditation even if you are not in a retreat.

 

However, we can practice vipassana and experience insight and clarity even in daily life. This is because vipassana does not require concentration on a single object to the exclusion to everything else. Any sensate reality, like the flow of breathing sensations, bodily sensations, or anything... we can observe in vipassana.

 

Do you think the 4th jhana can be accessed while not on retreat or is that very rare?

[xabir2005]

Do you think the 4th jhana can be accessed while not on retreat or is that very rare?

It's possible after periods of practice, but if you're a starter, a retreat is useful (it always is). You can find more experienced practitioners who can give better advices since I'm not focusing on shamatha.

 

Maybe try http://www.dharmaoverground.org/

[markern]

It's possible after periods of practice, but if you're a starter, a retreat is useful (it always is). You can find more experienced practitioners who can give better advices since I'm not focusing on shamatha.

 

Maybe try http://www.dharmaoverground.org/

 

Thanks. I am actualy a user there also altough I don`t post much there

[rain]

I don't see anything wrong about asking other people for their Jhana experiences and what steps they may have taken to attain them without attaching to them. In any case...if people *really* believed nothing was repeatable (true random chaos) then neither teachers nor students would exist. Lao Tzu, Plato nor the Buddha would have bothered to pass on what they learned and no one would have cared nor bothered to ask. Neither would books exist. Or instructional videos. Or apprenticeships, etc.

 

I would like to learn of other people's experiences but I still know full well that the Map is Not the Territory.

 

 

Serene Blue

check out this man he is open for discussion

 

http://www.greatwesternvehicle.org/ecstaticbuddhism.htm

[xabir2005]

Serene Blue

check out this man he is open for discussion

 

http://www.greatwesternvehicle.org/ecstaticbuddhism.htm

In my opinion, he has confused absorption with insight territories, mistaking samatha jhana with insights. Edited September 12, 2009 by xabir2005

[Vajrahridaya]

In my opinion, he has confused absorption with insight territories, mistaking samatha jhana with insights.

 

I agree. He is somewhat cultish as well.

 

So, does anyne have ersonal experience with the Jhanas? And if you have experienced them are you able to reenter them in daily life. Do you know to what a degree it is possible to regulary access jhanas up to say the 4th in daily life or is retreat almost always necesary for that?

 

I've experienced all the Jhanas at one point or another. Now, one can spontaneously have a jhana experience due to the building of familiarity, while doing anything. It just happens. All of a sudden the mind focuses the body turns to pulsating bliss energy and one is kind of transfixed in a state of rapture, or equanimity where the body doesn't want to move, or all of a sudden everything falls away and there's nothing but open space and no perceiver and no time, or there having ever been time... there are of course different levels to this. These spontaneous jhanic experiences started happening to me at around the age of 5 or 6. This is due to both past lives and the fact that my mother would go into Jhanas while I was in the womb.

 

One should as a beginner do extensive retreat. That's highly recommended and this is how I got some sort of mastery over the jhanic experiences. But, as Xabir said, without Vipassana, you'll have no integrated level of liberation and the jhanas are really there just to subtlify one's consciousness or awareness of processes in order to go deeper in vipassana until one has a state of constant and open contemplation of nature that is natural and spontaneous. Where one is seeing through everything constantly, including ones self.

 

Jhanas are good though, just don't "I" and "Mine" them. Even a perfected being will do regular Jhana just for health reasons. Or not, there are different kinds of Masters.

[Trunk]

... my mother would go into Jhanas while I was in the womb.

Lucky sadhu.

[JustARandomPanda]

One should as a beginner do extensive retreat. That's highly recommended and this is how I got some sort of mastery over the jhanic experiences.

 

Extended retreats are probably the best but some people don't have that kind of access. I wonder if there is a way to get the individualized coaching aspect of a retreat some other way? Maybe online? The way KAP is done?

[Desert Eagle]

Extended retreats are probably the best but some people don't have that kind of access. I wonder if there is a way to get the individualized coaching aspect of a retreat some other way? Maybe online? The way KAP is done?

 

but online is not like a retreat, I did some wilderness camping which was like a retreat.

[markern]

Extended retreats are probably the best but some people don't have that kind of access. I wonder if there is a way to get the individualized coaching aspect of a retreat some other way? Maybe online? The way KAP is done?

 

shinzen young provides something along these lines. Anyway I think over the long term KAP will make attaining jhanas much easier. There are stuff there that evnetualy works a lot faster than just focusing on the breath and once kundalini itself is raised I think deep concentration states becomes a lot more accessible

[Vajrahridaya]

Lucky sadhu.

 

Nah... just karma

 

once kundalini itself is raised I think deep concentration states becomes a lot more accessible

 

I agree.

[goldisheavy]

So why did the Buddha do just that, put a number on it.

 

There is a number of possible answers to this. One answers that jumps to my mind right away is this. Have you seen other Indian doctrines of the Buddha Gotama's time? Indians love them some numbers! Let me say this again, Indians lllloooooovvvvveee them some good juice numbers... love them love them love them. They enumerate things just to enumerate them. Even in the Suttas themselves, Buddha has counted everything else too. Like the 7 this, the 4 that, the 108 this, blah blah... there are numbers everywhere. Even after Buddha Gotama passed away, you find this addiction to numbers in later Buddhist texts as well.

 

So the answer here is that it's a cultural thing and has little or nothing to do with the actual wisdom. Other wisdom traditions, outside India, were not always so obsessed with the counting.

 

My other answer is that Buddha was not perfect. Buddha was probably one of, or the best teacher at the time of his life, but that doesn't mean he's perfect.

 

It is self evident that every experience is unique and in a way not repeatable. But still for all practical purposes there is absolutely meaning in talking about repeating certain sates and experiences. With a state of one pointed concentration charachterized by rapture, light etc. etc. that is largely the same as last time and the hundred last times and that can be differentiated from a couple of closely related but different states, it is meaningfull to give this state a name and talk about "repeating it". Especialy if such a sate is usefull in certain ways. No one thinks that you are almost going back in time to the same exact experience. You are just making unecesary difficulties out of the limitiations that lie in language. I`m sorry but I find this about as usefull as someone interupting a very concstructive discussions about how to meditate well with bulshit like how can you achieve what you realy are etc. placed completly ut of context.

 

Yes, I knew someone would feel that way. I still had to say what I said, because for many people what I said will be liberating.

[Vajrahridaya]

 

My other answer is that Buddha was not perfect. Buddha was probably one of, or the best teacher at the time of his life, but that doesn't mean he's perfect.

 

 

So your a better teacher than Gotama?

 

Ah yes, the epitome of humility... GIH! Get over yourself.

[goldisheavy]

So your a better teacher than Gotama?

 

Ah yes, the epitome of humility... GIH! Get over yourself.

 

I'm not a better teacher than Gotama for everyone. Gotama was not the best teacher for everyone. I am the best teacher for me. You are the best teacher for you. I won't get over myself because I am myself, and what am I shall not be delineated definitively by anyone, not even by me.

[Vajrahridaya]

I'm not a better teacher than Gotama for everyone. Gotama was not the best teacher for everyone. I am the best teacher for me. You are the best teacher for you. I won't get over myself because I am myself, and what am I shall not be delineated definitively by anyone, not even by me.

 

You are not your own best teacher. You should get more humble, because your afflicted by your own historical karmic baggage, which limits your perception on a deeply subjective level. You look around and color everyone with your spiritual pride, not catching how fast your subconscious projects it's delusions.

 

If you think Gotama was merely that teacher who taught the Pali Suttas, and not the Mahayana Sutras attributed to him, then you don't understand Gotama. Gotamas most pure teaching was the first thing he said upon getting up from under the Bodhi Tree. Look that up. It's before Brahma asked him to teach. He taught a highly delineated process to both a highly delineating culture and also a culture caught up in superstition abstractions, but his perfection transcends his words and his influence far transcends Buddhism into other religions. Gotama as an emanation of Vajrasattva is a teacher of Dzogchen. He also teaches to more highly evolved disciples in higher dimensions right now. He died leaving out of the 4th Jhana attributed to the Peerless deva realm, so you can meet him in the Sambhogakaya dimension, if your so fabulous. Your judgement of Gotama both betrays a lack of experience and a lack of understanding Buddhism.

 

You should loosen up your assumptions a bit and learn some things. Transcend yourself, get out of your box a bit. See more objectively and take in more information per spherical moment.

 

Edited September 13, 2009 by Vajrahridaya

[goldisheavy]

You are not your own best teacher.

 

You're right. I am my only teacher.

 

You should get more humble,

 

That's an arrogant suggestion. Maybe you need to take your own advice?

 

because your afflicted by your own historical karmic baggage, which limits your perception on a deeply subjective level.

 

And who isn't thus affected? Isn't that the whole point? The so-called "masters" are all similarly affected!

 

You look around and color everyone with your spiritual pride, not catching how fast your subconscious projects it's delusions.

 

Is that what I do? Jeez, I don't even need to be myself now. I will let you be me for me, eh? What an arrogant little twat you are.

Edited September 13, 2009 by goldisheavy

[Vajrahridaya]

You're right. I am my only teacher.

 

You give to much importance to your self experience.

 

 

That's an arrogant suggestion. Maybe you need to take your own advice?

 

I don't have as much of a problem seeing through my own projections as you do.

 

And who isn't thus affected? Isn't that the whole point? The so-called "masters" are all similarly affected!

 

No, they are not, you just project that they are. Which is the entire problem right there. This will keep you from really learning from a genuinely liberated lineage. You follow yourself too much.

Is that what I do?

Yes, that's what you do.

Edited September 13, 2009 by Vajrahridaya

[sheng zhen]

[Vajrahridaya]

You're right. I am my only teacher.

 

From a non-dual perspective, learning from a great living teacher is learning from yourself, of yourself.

 

People find it easier to quote from dead masters, but to humble oneself to a living guide takes much more courage. Then of course, you get to a point... but that point is not worth talking about if you haven't made that first step of honest and open humility, releasing of yourself and your thought patterns, and what you think you know and lay it down at the feet of someone who has actually gone through the entire process themselves, in lineage.

 

[goldisheavy]

From a non-dual perspective, learning from a great living teacher is learning from yourself, of yourself.

 

People find it easier to quote from dead masters, but to humble oneself to a living guide takes much more courage. Then of course, you get to a point... but that point is not worth talking about if you haven't made that first step of honest and open humility, releasing of yourself and your thought patterns, and what you think you know and lay it down at the feet of someone who has actually gone through the entire process themselves, in lineage.

 

 

You're just defending your own identity. What you're describing is important to you and it makes you who you are. Since I've threatened it with my comments, you take steps to protect it.