Taoist Philosophy

[Marblehead]

[Marblehead]

Deleted and started new thread.

Edited September 16, 2009 by Marblehead

[~jK~]

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Edited September 21, 2010 by ~jK~

[Marblehead]

Hi ~jK~,

 

Thanks for the comments.

 

Yes, words and labels are funny things, aren't they? It has been interesting for me to see the comments made to me and of me because of the forum name I selected. Truely funny, I assure you.

 

Indeed, I too found that it was necessary for me to cleanse my mind before I could truely grasp an uniquely new concept. The trash in there prevented it from being absorbed.

 

As to books, yes, within books are words; once the book has been read it becomes useless; the words contain thoughts and concepts; once the thoughts and concepts have been grasped the words can be forgotten.

 

It is my belief that all 'higher' thoughts and concepts can never be adequately expressed with words. But we have to use words as they are the only way we have for tranmitting our thoughts to others.

 

We will talk more about this as we go through the chapters of my collection.

 

Happy Trails!

[~jK~]

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Edited September 21, 2010 by ~jK~

[Marblehead]

Hi ~jK~,

 

I guess you didn't want to wait. Hehehe.

 

Actually, I never would have gotten into that at all so I suppose that it is good that the reader of this series of posts understands that Taoism is much more expansive than what I am going to present.

 

I guess that you and Stig both feel it necessary to make the point that Taoism did not stop its development with Chuang Tzu. And this is good because it allows the reader to understand that Taoism itself can and has been developed far beyond the philosophical teachings of Lao Tzu and Chuang Tzu.

 

Although during my initial search into Taoism I did venture into its religious and spiritual(?) development it just didn't feel 'right' to me so I returned to the basic philosophy. True, it left me without a spiritual aspect of Taoism but I have since found other paths for that aspect of my life.

 

So again I will say that I will present, as best I can, only the philosophical aspect of Taoism but I also welcome all posts regarding the further development of the articles I present.

 

And BTW I changed my salutation from "Be Well!" to "Happy Trails!" because of Wanderer's (?) mention of it. I figured "Happy Trails!" would be more unique. And as "Trails" is somewhat synonymous with "Journey" it is basically wishing all a 'Happy Journey (through life)'.

 

Happy Trails!

[~jK~]

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Edited September 21, 2010 by ~jK~

[Marblehead]

Hi ~jK~,

 

Sounds like a great place.

 

Thanks for the links.

 

I have my own sanctuary in my back yard with fish pond and Koi and Goldfish swimming around, frogs doing frog things, water falls, vegetation, a place to sit enjoy and relax or even meditate.

 

Happy Trails!

[~jK~]

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Edited September 21, 2010 by ~jK~

[vsaluki]

I'm inclined to think that Lao Tzu was an open hand. No esoteric teachings. No hidden messages. No ulterior motives. The problem that he has is that so many people want religion to be a kind of club. They want to have a sense of belonging to an inner circle of people that share a special truth that is only available or understood by them. They want to have a set of specific instructions and practices that makes them better or that allows them to achieve some spiritual goal. All religions have evolved to that, regardless of what the religions founder intended. Lao Tse doesn't offer any of those things. You cannot build a religion around the writings of Lao Tzu or Chuang Tzu because their teachings go directly to the individual. And even then they tell you the truth, which is that they really cannot tell you much. "The Tao that can be spoken of in not the true Tao". In my mind, a "Tao priest" is a contradiction in terms. It suggests that someone knows "the path". But the "the path" is like the path of a bird flying through the air. It is different each time that a different bird flys. And once the bird has passed, the path is gone. It cannot be seen and followed by other birds. In the same way, "the path" for each individual is unique to that individual. For this reason, it cannot be pointed to and identified by a religion. "The path" is also different in another way. Most paths are designed to connect two endpoints. They have a purpose. To get you from point A to point B. The Tao path has no such purpose. "The path" is it's own purpose. One of the most important elements of the teaching of Lao Tzu and Chuang Tzu is to not miss the fullness, beauty and significance of "the path" because you are concentrating on what you think are the endpoints.

Edited September 18, 2009 by vsaluki

[Marblehead]

A Link I just discovered:

Taoism Singapore Forum - it is 113 years old...

What is rare is that it is in English.

http://z14.invisionfree.com/taoism_singapo...Reg&CODE=00

 

10 PM in Hong Kong - also same time in Singapore. Time to crash & burn AKA go to sleep.

 

A computer forum that is 113 years old? Now that is either a miracle or magic. Hehehe.

 

I'll check it out.

 

Sweet dreams.

 

Happy Trails!

 

 

Hi Vsaluki,

 

Very good post! Thanks for joining in.

 

Happy Trails!

[~jK~]

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Edited September 21, 2010 by ~jK~

[Marblehead]

... but what must be kept in mind is that these writings are realllly old, in another language and are translated many times before reaching us.

 

Indeed. It is a fact that the roots of Taoism were firmly establiched prior to Lao Tzu. More than anything else, I think, he gets credit for gathering all the pieces, putting the pieces together to create the 'big picture'.

 

And even today a complete, verifiable copy of the Tao Te Ching does not exist. So the missing words, phrases were filled in with translators' opinion as to what 'should' have been there.

 

But we must work with what we have and that's just the way it is.

 

Happy Trails!

[Tao99]

Indeed. It is a fact that the roots of Taoism were firmly establiched prior to Lao Tzu. More than anything else, I think, he gets credit for gathering all the pieces, putting the pieces together to create the 'big picture'.

 

And even today a complete, verifiable copy of the Tao Te Ching does not exist. So the missing words, phrases were filled in with translators' opinion as to what 'should' have been there.

 

But we must work with what we have and that's just the way it is.

 

Happy Trails!

Howdy I'm in total agreement - we can only work with what is there. One approach I prefer is to start with the raw translation - straight from just the Chinese characters given. At http://www.yellowbridge.com/onlinelit/daodejing01.php you can see these characters line by line, and by putting mouse over them, see their raw translation. So this could be called a Raw Translation. After this there is a simple Direct Translation keeping as close to the characters but phrasing it in English. My personal Direct Translation for Chapter 1 is below. Note that even these Direct Translations can vary. Beyond this there are Developed Translations drawing on Taoist philosophy knowledge etc and trying to tell the "story of the chapter" without any concern to matching the characters. I'd say yours is a Developed Translation.

 

*****************************Tao99 Translation *********************************

 

Daode Jing Chapter 1 What is the Dao?

 

1

道可道, The Tao conceptualized

非常道。 is not the eternal Tao

 

名可名， The name named

非常名。 is not the eternal name

 

 

2

無，名天地之始, Without any qualities, it's the root of the universe.

有，名萬物之母。 Sprouting qualities, it's the mother of 10,000 things.

 

 

3

故常無， Emptied of all qualities,

欲以觀其妙； observe its subtlety

 

常有， Filled with qualities,

欲以觀其徼。 observe its boundaries

 

 

4

此兩者， These two make up

同出而異名， the one with a different name;

同謂之玄。 call them both mysterious.

 

玄之又玄， Mystery wrapped in mystery:

眾妙之門。 The supreme mystery doorway!

 

*****************************************************************************

Edited September 19, 2009 by Tao99

[Marblehead]

Hi Tao99,

 

I like the way you did the chapter. Thanks.

 

Yes, all translations I use would be considered what you called Developed Translations.

 

I do have access to one complete translation that is supposed to be a Direct Translation but I have not even read the sucker yet. Hehehe.

 

Happy Trails!

[~jK~]

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Edited September 21, 2010 by ~jK~

[vsaluki]

Howdy I'm in total agreement - we can only work with what is there. One approach I prefer is to start with the raw translation - straight from just the Chinese characters given. At http://www.yellowbridge.com/onlinelit/daodejing01.php

 

Thanks. I have the Hua-Ching Ni translation. But he seems to do a lot of expansion. It's nice to have other translations to compare it to.

[Marblehead]

You guys are doing great! Keep the information flowing.

 

Happy Trails!

[JustARandomPanda]

Thank you Marblehead for providing these chapters. I don't own a copy yet so these are a great help.

[Marblehead]

Thank you Marblehead for providing these chapters. I don't own a copy yet so these are a great help.

 

You're welcome SereneBlue.

 

Remember, the chapters as I am presenting them are not in accord with the Tao Te Ching. I am presenting my reorganized understanding according to the themes I identified within the Tao Te Ching supported, where applicable, with extracts from the Chuang Tzu.

 

Enjoy.

 

Happy Trails!

[~jK~]

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Edited September 21, 2010 by ~jK~

[Marblehead]

Hi ~jk~,

 

Yes, that is an important document of Chinese history. I don't normally speak to it as it is more Confucian than it is Taoist.

 

Peace & Love!