Hello from Turkey

[Budala]

Hi Tao Bums,

 

I am joining this virtual sangha from Canakkale, Turkey.

I have met Taoism and Zen Buddhism at the age of 15 almost the same time I had met with the Beat poets and authors. At 18 I was more serious with Zen stuff and practiced Zazen for 3 years. Then the tides and streams of life have ridden me towards more politics (particularly anarchist organizations and affinity groups) and less spirituality but actually now I observe that all that politic engagements were deeply (ok! sometimes slightly) spiritual as well.

Now I am 28 and in the last 3 years I had been more into sufi teachings and surprisingly with my materialistic and atheistic family backgorunds I have bugun calling myself a Muslim but not in an Orthodox way, rather taking main concepts of Islam less or more in a Taoist approach. All in all, these are just labels, names and forms to conceptualize our understandings and I feel attached to neither Allah nor Tao as a concept but tend to think of myself as an explorer and disciple trying to understand and realize my "self" on the Way.

I came across this forum a week ago and have been searching through since then and I am taken by what I have seen so far. So I decided to jump in.

I return my thanks to all of you for "being there somewhere" and I return my thanks to the Indiscribable for "coming across at the right time".

[Marblehead]

Hi Budala,

 

Welcome!

 

May you enjoy your time here.

 

Happy Trails!

[TommyRyukyu]

Wow! Good Stuff Badala! Interesting path you are on, and I appreciate you joining thetaobums sharing your journey. If only the world at large could shed the labels and join the path of self discovery and understanding there is nothing that could stand in the way of mankind realize our full potential! Oh, and welcome!!

 

Tommy

[Yoda]

Budala,

 

Welcome to taobums!

 

Your pal,

Yoda

[Zenshiite]

Hi Tao Bums,

 

I am joining this virtual sangha from Canakkale, Turkey.

I have met Taoism and Zen Buddhism at the age of 15 almost the same time I had met with the Beat poets and authors. At 18 I was more serious with Zen stuff and practiced Zazen for 3 years. Then the tides and streams of life have ridden me towards more politics (particularly anarchist organizations and affinity groups) and less spirituality but actually now I observe that all that politic engagements were deeply (ok! sometimes slightly) spiritual as well.

Now I am 28 and in the last 3 years I had been more into sufi teachings and surprisingly with my materialistic and atheistic family backgorunds I have bugun calling myself a Muslim but not in an Orthodox way, rather taking main concepts of Islam less or more in a Taoist approach. All in all, these are just labels, names and forms to conceptualize our understandings and I feel attached to neither Allah nor Tao as a concept but tend to think of myself as an explorer and disciple trying to understand and realize my "self" on the Way.

I came across this forum a week ago and have been searching through since then and I am taken by what I have seen so far. So I decided to jump in.

I return my thanks to all of you for "being there somewhere" and I return my thanks to the Indiscribable for "coming across at the right time".

 

Salaam alaikum wa Ramadan Mubarak,

 

I just joined this forum as well.

 

I'd like to ask a couple questions and perhaps make a few statements, to you re: Islam. Orthodoxy is not, as opposed to modern notions, a bad thing. All orthodoxy would mean, really, is that you adhere to the 5 pillars of Tawhid(Unity of God), Prophethood, daily prayer, fasting in Ramadan, paying of Zakat and a personal commitment to make the Hajj at least once in your lifetime. I personally see no reason why certain Taoist teachings and practices wouldn't be compatible with Islam, and I think that's born out by the esoteric side of Islam aka Sufism/Tasawwuf and theoretical gnosis('irfan). After all, all the most prominent and revered Sufi masters were themselves practitioners of exoteric orthodoxy... including Jalaluddin Rumi and Shaykh al-Akbar ibn al-'Arabi.

 

Greater intellects than myself have discussed this much more thoroughly than I have; but the gist of it is that the esoteric unveiling really isn't truly possible with the exoteric structure to build upon. You find this even in the free wheeling Taoist circles with some quite rigid personal practices in many schools of Taoism. Quan Zhen and Wudang, for instance, lead a very strict lifestyle and practice while maintaining an inner openness. Which is precisely what Sufism and Islam is about. The Sufi structure is always Shariat(exoteric religious path), Tariqat(esoteric spiritual path), and Haqqiqah(unveiling of Inner Reality)... which are not so much stages, as layers. Shariat is the foundation upon which all other attainments are built.

 

Even the concept of God/Allah in Islam might often be misconstrued. I think the fullness of what is Allah's nature is gleaned from Imam 'Ali's first sermon in Nahj al-Balaghah:

Praise is due to Allah whose worth cannot be described by speakers, whose bounties cannot be counted by calculators and whose claim (to obedience) cannot be satisfied by those who attempt to do so, whom the height of intellectual courage cannot appreciate, and the divings of understanding cannot reach; He for whose description no limit has been laid down, no eulogy exists, no time is ordained and no duration is fixed. He brought forth creation through His Omnipotence, dispersed winds through His Compassion, and made firm the shaking earth with rocks.

 

The foremost in religion is the acknowledgment of Him, the perfection of acknowledging Him is to testify Him, the perfection of testifying Him is to believe in His Oneness, the perfection of believing in His Oneness is to regard Him Pure, and the perfection of His purity is to deny Him attributes, because every attribute is a proof that it is different from that to which it is attributed and everything to which something is attributed is different from the attribute. Thus whoever attaches attributes to Allah recognizes His like, and who recognizes His like regards Him two; and who regards Him two recognizes parts for Him; and who recognizes parts for Him mistook Him; and who mistook Him pointed at Him; and who pointed at Him admitted limitations for Him; and who admitted limitations for Him numbered Him.

 

Whoever said in what is He, held that He is contained; and whoever said on what is He held He is not on something else. He is a Being but not through phenomenon of coming into being. He exists but not from non-existence. He is with everything but not in physical nearness. He is different from everything but not in physical separation. He acts but without connotation of movements and instruments. He sees even when there is none to be looked at from among His creation. He is only One, such that there is none with whom He may keep company or whom He may miss in his absence.

 

That's a pretty elaborate way of expressing the same notion as "the Tao that can be spoken of is not the Eternal Tao."

 

To sum up what I'm saying... food for thought: if you don't commit to a path, you'll likely never get to the Destination.

 

Perhaps I'm being a bit to forward and presumptious, if so... please forgive me.

 

Peace,

Dawud

[Budala]

Thank you all for your warm welcoming messages.

Mubarak Ramadan wa Leyl-i Kadr to you Dawud. I'll try to answer your questions and express myself better. Religious issues and beliefs are somewhat delicate so please do not feel offended by any of my words, just trying to explain myself better.

 

Orthodoxy is not, as opposed to modern notions, a bad thing. All orthodoxy would mean, really, is that you adhere to the 5 pillars of Tawhid(Unity of God), Prophethood, daily prayer, fasting in Ramadan, paying of Zakat and a personal commitment to make the Hajj at least once in your lifetime.

 

When I say Orthodox (from greek orthos "right", "true, "straight" + doxa "opinion", "conviction") I mean the perspectives claiming to be holding the true conviction rejecting all others. Heterodox being the antithetical word stands for allowing a multiplity of opinions or convictions, giving non of them a hierarchical dominance above others. For me Orthodoxy is the claim to be holding the only true meaning of a teaching while heteredoxy is the tolerance to all different interpretations regarding we have limited knowledge and what we think to be true might not be so in all cases. This is why I call myself a non-Orthodox Muslim (or rather a heterodox one).

 

Delusion of grasping and capturing the Truth might be very dangerous, counter-productive on the way, and might turn a promising spiritual way into a dogma and sometimes cruel tyranny over others as we see in cases of many sufi masters being tortured to death by orthodox ulema eg. Halladj al Mansur, Nesimi, Shams-i Tabrizi (the mentor-disciple of Jalaladdin Rumi) and many others. The truth can't be grasped and captured and our knowledge is limited, Alim Allah (Allah knows the better)(or you can rather say Tao or the Way)

 

This is not peculiar to Islamic Orthodoxy and is also valid for all other religious sects and spritiual ways which are claiming to know and hold the only true meaning.

I personally see no reason why certain Taoist teachings and practices wouldn't be compatible with Islam, and I think that's born out by the esoteric side of Islam aka Sufism/Tasawwuf and theoretical gnosis('irfan).

 

I totally agree with it but I doubt mainstream orthodox Muslims would agree. I will quote the words of Sheikh-ul Akbar Ibn Arabi's words upon his meeting with Ibn Rushd at the young age of 19 and asked if the truth he had come to understand with contemplation (murakaba) was the same as thier philosophical understanding. Arabi answered:

 

"Between the Yes and the No the spirits take their flight beyond matter, and the necks detach themselves from their bodies."

 

I take it a rather elegant way of saying "if I declared what I came to understood I would be taken right to the gallows!" (And this is of course only one interpretation of his words and I acknowledge and approve many other interpretations as well) But later on when he became famous as the Great Sheikh he declared much more of his gnostic lore. Besides his most prominent works like Bezels of Wisdom and The Meccan Illuminations his Mirat al Irfan is a great treatise which is not translated into any western languages yet as far as I know (but I might be mistaken as well)

 

After all, all the most prominent and revered Sufi masters were themselves practitioners of exoteric orthodoxy...

 

I agree with you that most Sufi masters were pracitioners of exoteric "ways" of Islam but I would not call those practices orthodoxy. And we could have such a long and interesting talk on the esoteric meanings of the five pillars of Islam (by the way don't the Shiite have a sixth pillar - Justice) and contemporary practices of them but I guess this is not the right place (oh I might also be mistaken about this ) but I can't help myself giving a little example:

 

Take praying, for instance. The arabic word for it is salaat which literally translates as meditating, contemplating and supporting. There is no inscription in Koran on how to do it. The form we do today - and there are countless different forms depending on your sect with slight alterations - is just the tradition. And what is worse is during this contemplation prayer words are read in Arabic whereas most of the Muslims in my country and elsewhere don't know Arabic and just don't understand what they are praying to Allah. It is quite like reading some sutras in Hindu or Tibetian languages without understanding what it means and I doubt anyone would benefit much from such a practice. (On second thought, sure they would benefit some with good intentions and if they feel His Highness in their hearts. But anyway, you don't need to be doing the salaat for such a benefit)

 

The Sufi structure is always Shariat(exoteric religious path), Tariqat(esoteric spiritual path), and Haqqiqah(unveiling of Inner Reality)... which are not so much stages, as layers. Shariat is the foundation upon which all other attainments are built.

 

And don't forget the Marifat

 

Ok, I don't wanna be too much controversial. Just some thoughts...

 

And I appreciate very much that sermon of Ali you sent. I haven't read Nahj al-Balaghah yet but will definitely read soon. Thank you very much for this.

[Zenshiite]

Thank you all for your warm welcoming messages.

Mubarak Ramadan wa Leyl-i Kadr to you Dawud. I'll try to answer your questions and express myself better. Religious issues and beliefs are somewhat delicate so please do not feel offended by any of my words, just trying to explain myself better.

When I say Orthodox (from greek orthos "right", "true, "straight" + doxa "opinion", "conviction") I mean the perspectives claiming to be holding the true conviction rejecting all others. Heterodox being the antithetical word stands for allowing a multiplity of opinions or convictions, giving non of them a hierarchical dominance above others. For me Orthodoxy is the claim to be holding the only true meaning of a teaching while heteredoxy is the tolerance to all different interpretations regarding we have limited knowledge and what we think to be true might not be so in all cases. This is why I call myself a non-Orthodox Muslim (or rather a heterodox one).

 

Delusion of grasping and capturing the Truth might be very dangerous, counter-productive on the way, and might turn a promising spiritual way into a dogma and sometimes cruel tyranny over others as we see in cases of many sufi masters being tortured to death by orthodox ulema eg. Halladj al Mansur, Nesimi, Shams-i Tabrizi (the mentor-disciple of Jalaladdin Rumi) and many others. The truth can't be grasped and captured and our knowledge is limited, Alim Allah (Allah knows the better)(or you can rather say Tao or the Way)

 

This is not peculiar to Islamic Orthodoxy and is also valid for all other religious sects and spritiual ways which are claiming to know and hold the only true meaning.

I totally agree with it but I doubt mainstream orthodox Muslims would agree. I will quote the words of Sheikh-ul Akbar Ibn Arabi's words upon his meeting with Ibn Rushd at the young age of 19 and asked if the truth he had come to understand with contemplation (murakaba) was the same as thier philosophical understanding. Arabi answered:

 

"Between the Yes and the No the spirits take their flight beyond matter, and the necks detach themselves from their bodies."

 

I take it a rather elegant way of saying "if I declared what I came to understood I would be taken right to the gallows!" (And this is of course only one interpretation of his words and I acknowledge and approve many other interpretations as well) But later on when he became famous as the Great Sheikh he declared much more of his gnostic lore. Besides his most prominent works like Bezels of Wisdom and The Meccan Illuminations his Mirat al Irfan is a great treatise which is not translated into any western languages yet as far as I know (but I might be mistaken as well)

I agree with you that most Sufi masters were pracitioners of exoteric "ways" of Islam but I would not call those practices orthodoxy. And we could have such a long and interesting talk on the esoteric meanings of the five pillars of Islam (by the way don't the Shiite have a sixth pillar - Justice) and contemporary practices of them but I guess this is not the right place (oh I might also be mistaken about this ) but I can't help myself giving a little example:

 

Take praying, for instance. The arabic word for it is salaat which literally translates as meditating, contemplating and supporting. There is no inscription in Koran on how to do it. The form we do today - and there are countless different forms depending on your sect with slight alterations - is just the tradition. And what is worse is during this contemplation prayer words are read in Arabic whereas most of the Muslims in my country and elsewhere don't know Arabic and just don't understand what they are praying to Allah. It is quite like reading some sutras in Hindu or Tibetian languages without understanding what it means and I doubt anyone would benefit much from such a practice. (On second thought, sure they would benefit some with good intentions and if they feel His Highness in their hearts. But anyway, you don't need to be doing the salaat for such a benefit)

 

And don't forget the Marifat

 

Ok, I don't wanna be too much controversial. Just some thoughts...

 

And I appreciate very much that sermon of Ali you sent. I haven't read Nahj al-Balaghah yet but will definitely read soon. Thank you very much for this.

 

 

Salaam alaikum,

 

My apologies to the Bums for going on with this. It's an interesting dialogue for me... not many Muslims I encounter have an abiding interest in Taoism and Taoist practices and Islam and it's esoteric dimension, aside from my Ba Gua teacher.

 

Anyways, in the sense that you're using "Orthodox" I can see your point. There's really no one Orthodoxy in Islam. Other than the general agreement with Monotheism, the existence of the Unseen World(heavens, angelic beings, jinn), the prophethood of Muhammad and the veracity of the Qur'an. The critical thing I take from Imam 'Ali's sermon that I quoted above is that all our understandings of God are going to be colored by our own limited ability to conceive of the Divine Nature and that God is always greater than that(Allahu Akbar!). If we say God is One, what do we mean by that?(BTW, being Turkish have you ever read Ahmed Hulusi's books?) Do we mean that God is one numerically, implying a second or the possibility of a second? It takes an awful lot to be a heterodox Muslim, like... believing in prophets after Muhammad, or going to extreme notions like certain extremist Shi'a sects that have literally considered 'Ali to be an incarnation of God. Orthodoxy, in Islam, is primarily in the realm of actual practice and less in the realm of ideas. A small example, two of the more famous of the Prophet's companions Salman al-Farsi and Abu Dhar. This is a Shi'a hadith, but the Prophet famously said that if Abu Dhar were to be told what Salman knew he'd think Salman a disbeliever. Even amongst the Prophet's companions there were levels of knowledge and unveiling. So, yeah, the exoteric scholars often fall into the error of believing that they have all the knowledge there is to be had despite... especially in the case of the Shi'a ulama... having knowledge of hadith that indicate certain companions were privy to higher forms of knowledge than others.

 

Regarding salat, it's a shame when people do things that they don't know the meanings of... however, even if one is ignorant of the specific meaning of... for instance... the Fatihah or Surah al-Ikhlas you derive a great deal of benefit just from reciting the verses in Arabic. Now, there's nothing particular about the Arabic language that makes it special except it was the language of revelation and just based on the Qur'anic statement that there's a healing for the reciter and listener there-in... I'd say just the recitation alone is of great benefit even without understanding. Of course, one should also strive for understanding. I personally don't speak Arabic, but I understand a few Surahs of the Qur'an and the words we recite in the various postures of the prayer on at least one level of meaning. The most exoteric level, that is. The postures of the salat are mentioned in the Qur'an in conjunction with the enjoining to perform salat. As well as references to reciting the Qur'an and salat. And of course, the Fatihah is referred to as the "Seven Most Oft-Repeated Verses" in the Qur'an. There's a good book that touches on all of this called The Book of Sufi Healing by Shaykh Moinuddin Chisti. There's a chapter on salat that deals with it in a yogic way, as well as a chapter specifically about the breathing practices inherent in the recitation of Qur'an and the effects those have on you.

 

Anyways, the only thing I'm really saying is the exoteric practices are important in order to make strides in the exoteric realm, in whatever tradition you're following, if for no other reason than that the esoteric is constructed upon the exoteric or with the presumption that one is engaging in the exoteric. It's also a matter of balance, yin-yang, delving into the esoteric without the exoteric to groud you can cause you great harm... and, of course, binding oneself to the exoteric with no regard for the esoteric leaves one earthbound and often quite exclusionist and violent. That said, the sorts these days to make themselves out to be the only "orthodox" Muslims are Wahhabi/Salafi sectarians and their sentiments are quite heterodox when you look at the long standing traditional Islam. Right down to attributing to God a corporeal form, and their dispensing with traditional Islamic chivalry(futuwwah).

 

Fi Aman Allah

[Creation]

Salaam alaikum Budala and Zenshiite. Welcome to the forum.

 

Since there has been some talk of "I don't know if this is the place to discuss this", I would like to express my appreciation to you both for sharing your discussion with us. My understanding of Islam is quite superficial in view of the enormous depth and breadth of its tradition, so I am grateful to be able to eaves-drop on two spiritually-minded Muslims respectfully discoursing.

 

Yours,

Tyler