A God Crisis.

[Eviander]

It seems that your problem might be connected with your christian family..and associating your parents with Christianity. This might be a problem with anyone looking to break away from their family dogma..but..it looks like you believe pretty much in the eastern definition of god...though it might be better to label what your talking about (which is simply consciousness or 'the Tao' to be relevant to this forum) as something else other than god..which in my opinion has many negative connotations in the English speaking world.

Edited September 18, 2009 by Eviander

[gendao]

And as for the last statement you made-- it's not my task to prove Jesus' existence to you or to anyone else. In the time I'd waste trying to convince you, I can be furthering my own understanding of what it was that Jesus taught.

No offense, but if it's not a preacher's "job" to prove Jesus's existence to "non-believers," then whose job is it?

[Prince...]

No offense, but if it's not a preacher's "job" to prove Jesus's existence to "non-believers," then whose job is it?

There are different kinds of theologies and theological approaches. I don't play the "my faith is better than yours" game. I'm more concerned with "do you have spiritual life?" "is it working for you?" "is it making you a better person?"

 

As to whose job it is? Well, it really should not be the preachers or any preacher for that matter. You want to know how the clergy can best prove anything? Take care of the widow and the orphan, stand up for the people that don't have a voice--you know the things that Jesus (and the Hebrew Bible) says to do.

[33865_1494798762]

Edited September 19, 2009 by Guest

[JustARandomPanda]

I've noticed since I started meditating and doing KAP I have an increasing aversion to handing out advice. I've become more aware of just how damn easy it is to hand out that which I don't have enough gumption to act upon in my own life. Wherefore then should I presume to advise anyone else?

 

What a strange jumble of atoms humans are...

 

Between the Idea and the Reality,

Between the Motion and the Act,

Falls the Shadow...

 

[Encephalon]

Bailing

Edited September 19, 2009 by Blasto

[vsaluki]

I do believe that everything Jesus taught is supported by the Hebrew bible.

 

Prince, think about it for a minute. Some of the heroes of the Hebrew bible were men that attacked cities of non Jews, and after winning the battle they put to death every Man, Woman, Child, and animal in the city. This happened many times with several of the biblical heroes. Now go back and read the sermon on the mount. Can you really imagine that the Jesus that gave that sermon would approve of the kind of raw, bloodthirsty barbarity that is contained in the old testament. I certainly can't. Do you know that the final decision to include the old testament in the Bible was not made until about 400 AD. There is a split starting to happen due to the barbarity of the old testament. For example, the President of Ukrain, after being elected, refused to take the oath of office on the entire Bible and only took it on the new testament.

 

Good luck becoming a minister. I hope that you take the softer route that seems to be available in the Christian tradition. Try St. John of the Cross and Meister Ekhart. I consider Bernadette Roberts to be an enlightened Christian, and she is still alive. Her books are available too. Maybe you can be the guy that makes Christian mysticism main stream.

[Mal]

I've noticed since I started meditating and doing KAP I have an increasing aversion to handing out advice.

 

Weird isn't it. I see that a lot here when people get into any practice that clicks for them.

 

Change is good.

[fiveelementtao]

The story of Jesus is found in many religions far older than christianity. For many believers this is seen as an attack on their belief. For me, I see it differently. It is either one of two possibilites:

1: Christianity is a compilation of fact and previous religious myths.

OR...

2: it is a very real spiritual truth that has actually happened numerous times throughout human history.

 

According to Hindus, Vishnu (2nd person of Divine trinity - The preservation principle of the Cosmos) reincarnates into human form whenever mankind has deviated from the balanced path...

If it is true that the Christian birth story reflects other spiritual myths from antiquity, (which it does - (horus, mithra, Krishna...) it doesn't have to mean that it is false, it could also mean that it is a real spiritual principle that repeats itself throughout history...

I humbly suggest considering this more holographically and less Black and White...

 

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M1Vo-rqftSU

 

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Edited September 19, 2009 by fiveelementtao

[Encephalon]

Weird isn't it. I see that a lot here when people get into any practice that clicks for them.

 

Change is good.

 

I think this is because we recognize and experience our own potential for growth and see the wisdom in growing at our own organic rhythm. The people I learned important lessons from weren't consciously assisting me; they were merely setting a good example of wisdom and compassion.

[Prince...]

Prince, think about it for a minute. Some of the heroes of the Hebrew bible were men that attacked cities of non Jews, and after winning the battle they put to death every Man, Woman, Child, and animal in the city. This happened many times with several of the biblical heroes. Now go back and read the sermon on the mount. Can you really imagine that the Jesus that gave that sermon would approve of the kind of raw, bloodthirsty barbarity that is contained in the old testament. I certainly can't. Do you know that the final decision to include the old testament in the Bible was not made until about 400 AD. There is a split starting to happen due to the barbarity of the old testament. For example, the President of Ukrain, after being elected, refused to take the oath of office on the entire Bible and only took it on the new testament.

 

Good luck becoming a minister. I hope that you take the softer route that seems to be available in the Christian tradition. Try St. John of the Cross and Meister Ekhart. I consider Bernadette Roberts to be an enlightened Christian, and she is still alive. Her books are available too. Maybe you can be the guy that makes Christian mysticism main stream.

 

Sorry it took me so long to get back to you with a response. In response the "bloodthirsty" stories and "wrathful" God depicted in the Hebrew Bible, many of these stories are not true or did not happen as written. What you have is a writer telling their version of some event based on their understanding. People are human and present things from their point of view which may or may not be unbiased. Some of the prophets along with Jesus of Nazareth actually voiced concerns over the written Torah.

 

As for making Christian mysticism the main stream, someone else will have to take up that mantle. Lots of things can happen in a year's time. Although I have not learned to read the Bible in Greek, I have learned enough to know that I cannot serve the Church without telling a lie.

 

And that's all I have to say about that...

 

edit: I also need to comment on the decision not to include the Hebrew Bible until 400 CE: where did you read this? Up until the canonization of the New Testament, the only "Bible" was the Septuagint, the "Old Testament" scriptures still in use by the Catholic Church. There were groups that rejected the Hebrew Bible at that time, but they were viewed as heretics.

Edited October 3, 2010 by Prince...

[ralis]

I've come into a crisis. This wasn't even a crisis till I tried labeling things, however at times, I guess things do need a label.

 

I believe in a higher power, but I do not believe in a God of personification, I believe in a God that is everywhere, that is in the smile of others and in the curve of the horizon, a God that is in the water and trees. He may posess a physical form, but that form is beyond my realm of comprehension.

 

I believe that Jesus Christ was an amazing enlightened being, but I am not sure about him being a saviour, honestly, after 12 years of Christian schools I'm not really sure I get why he is our saviour, I mean, we are all "God's children".. right?

 

I am also unsure of a christian afterlife, I don't believe that a loving creator would let someone burn in hell for eternity because they are a bad person.

 

Average life span-100 years (i'm an optimist).

Time maybe spent in hell- ETERNITY

 

Doing the math wouldn't that make God an ass?

 

I know this isn't a Christian forum, but I just have been really into Eastern thought, and I give talks to a youth group and help with a local Christian church, and lately I feel out of place.. Though I think my talks on stillness and breaking concepts of what God could be are very helpful, I just don't think I am..well a Christian.

 

But what does that even mean? I think Jesus was a great guy.. I think he was a Buddha.. I just don't think I owe anything to a creator, and I get a lot of that vibe in Christianity.. I think we are our own Saviours in a sense.

 

But then there are these glimpses of simplicity and inner peace in Christianity that I do love.. The whole Gospel of Thomas, a gnostic gospel, speaks of inner peace and the kingdom of God being in each of us, and hell being in each of us too if we do not find the perfection in the Now.

 

I guess I am just stuck at

 

1) picking a group to associate myself with..

2) Being angry at myself for wanting to label my belief system.

 

Some of you had to have started out as Christians..

 

How do you do this? Do you still associate with Christianity and Taoism/Buddhism?

 

Do you go down both paths?

 

How did you conquer this, or approach this?

 

Thanks.

 

It is important to keep asking questions and to steer clear of authoritarian belief systems. Spend as much time in the natural world as you can.

 

ralis

[Jetsun]

I think for a lot of us westerners whether we went to church or not psychologically we are Christian, as if you are brought up in a Christian country you can't avoid it, so finding some peace with your native religion is important in my opinion even if you prefer eastern approaches.

 

Personally I have found studying Gurdjieff and the 4th way invaluable for opening up Christianity to me in a more esoteric way, although officially it's not a Christian approach as such it has been described as original Christianity or Christianity before Christ. Gurdjieff says some faccinating things about original Christianity for example the term "God father" is now more associated with gangster films but originally every person would be assigned a God father in this religion to ensure the childs spiritual progress and initiate them esoterically.

 

It's hard long work studying the 4th way system but I promise you will never be able to look at a Cathedrale the same way or read the bible in the same way again afterwards, and it will be clear the only way to see the bible will be as a incredibly high level esoteric document.

[Everything]

Organized religion is always corrupt, the god that can be spoken of is not yours or anyones god and is not even a god at all, but a word. The mysteries of your perceptions will never end. There will always be a mystery... There will always be something you do not understand, and this is good. Our journey is to keep opening new doors as we go about and live our lifes.

 

And it takes courage to change your believes and open yourself as a child to a new world, become a butterfly once again. These are mystics of the world, the people who are not participating in believing but are believed IN by others! Or hated for that matter by brining about the chaos and confusion of their newly acquired insights of an unknown mystical world. Those who can gather courage and create a new world that requires new hopes are truely free and divine. They create their own heavens.

[ralis]

Fox is obviously having an existential crisis and some here want to give out advice. In general, this type of help may only worsen the crisis. The advice givers imply that their own existential crisis has been solved. I rather doubt it!

 

 

ralis

[goldisheavy]

I guess I am just stuck at

 

1) picking a group to associate myself with..

2) Being angry at myself for wanting to label my belief system.

 

Some of you had to have started out as Christians..

 

How do you do this? Do you still associate with Christianity and Taoism/Buddhism?

 

Do you go down both paths?

 

How did you conquer this, or approach this?

 

Thanks.

 

I've never been a Christian, and I've always had a dislike for Christian doctrine the minute I've read any of the Christian texts. So take this under advisement.

 

I've been brought up as a materialist-atheist, and later I became highly spiritual in my view. I am still an atheist, but I am no longer a materialist (also known as "physicalist").

 

I've researched many traditions and I've gone through periods of loosely associating myself with one tradition, then another and so on. I kept finding better and better traditions and systems of thought.

 

Eventually what I discovered is this:

 

1. No school of thought is logically perfect. Not even my favorite one.

2. No tradition is completely free of assholes. And I don't want to be associated with any group that has even one asshole in it.

 

 

To expand on point 2, I am answerable for all my identities. If I maintain only a personal identity, I am answerable for my person. However, if I adopt a group identity into my personal identity, I become answerable for it. Thus, for example, if I call myself "a Democrat," suddenly I am morally obligated to keep all the fellow Democrats straight as long as I continue to associate with that label. All members of the group are personally morally responsible for how the group thinks and behaves. This is a high burden.

 

Naturally, the smaller my identity footprint is, the less I am morally answerable for. It's plenty enough that I am a person and a human. That alone makes me answerable for being a person and for humanity as a group. That alone is already too much moral burden. There is no need to weigh myself down with more narrow and specific group identities.

 

So be careful with who you throw your lot together. If you want to listen to my advise: learn from all that you consider wise, but keep your association loose and flexible. Don't attach yourself to any group.

[ralis]

I've never been a Christian, and I've always had a dislike for Christian doctrine the minute I've read any of the Christian texts. So take this under advisement.

 

I've been brought up as a materialist-atheist, and later I became highly spiritual in my view. I am still an atheist, but I am no longer a materialist (also known as "physicalist").

 

I've researched many traditions and I've gone through periods of loosely associating myself with one tradition, then another and so on. I kept finding better and better traditions and systems of thought.

 

Eventually what I discovered is this:

 

1. No school of thought is logically perfect. Not even my favorite one.

2. No tradition is completely free of assholes. And I don't want to be associated with any group that has even one asshole in it.

 

 

To expand on point 2, I am answerable for all my identities. If I maintain only a personal identity, I am answerable for my person. However, if I adopt a group identity into my personal identity, I become answerable for it. Thus, for example, if I call myself "a Democrat," suddenly I am morally obligated to keep all the fellow Democrats straight as long as I continue to associate with that label. All members of the group are personally morally responsible for how the group thinks and behaves. This is a high burden.

 

Naturally, the smaller my identity footprint is, the less I am morally answerable for. It's plenty enough that I am a person and a human. That alone makes me answerable for being a person and for humanity as a group. That alone is already too much moral burden. There is no need to weigh myself down with more narrow and specific group identities.

 

So be careful with who you throw your lot together. If you want to listen to my advise: learn from all that you consider wise, but keep your association loose and flexible. Don't attach yourself to any group.

 

 

Well put Gold! True believers never question authority!

 

ralis

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

 

Hi Gold: There is much integrity in your post, true integrity.. i was blessed to have a mentor reveal much of what you posted while i was still young enough to benefit from it, you have posted it with nice clarity.. further, my mentor suggested that clarity and truth exist 'between' the thoughts, in the 'empty' spaces of our lives, where potential is fertile.. it is my belief that every label is a limitation, every 'path' a confinement..

 

Be well..