A God Crisis.

[Fox]

I've come into a crisis. This wasn't even a crisis till I tried labeling things, however at times, I guess things do need a label.

 

I believe in a higher power, but I do not believe in a God of personification, I believe in a God that is everywhere, that is in the smile of others and in the curve of the horizon, a God that is in the water and trees. He may posess a physical form, but that form is beyond my realm of comprehension.

 

I believe that Jesus Christ was an amazing enlightened being, but I am not sure about him being a saviour, honestly, after 12 years of Christian schools I'm not really sure I get why he is our saviour, I mean, we are all "God's children".. right?

 

I am also unsure of a christian afterlife, I don't believe that a loving creator would let someone burn in hell for eternity because they are a bad person.

 

Average life span-100 years (i'm an optimist).

Time maybe spent in hell- ETERNITY

 

Doing the math wouldn't that make God an ass?

 

I know this isn't a Christian forum, but I just have been really into Eastern thought, and I give talks to a youth group and help with a local Christian church, and lately I feel out of place.. Though I think my talks on stillness and breaking concepts of what God could be are very helpful, I just don't think I am..well a Christian.

 

But what does that even mean? I think Jesus was a great guy.. I think he was a Buddha.. I just don't think I owe anything to a creator, and I get a lot of that vibe in Christianity.. I think we are our own Saviours in a sense.

 

But then there are these glimpses of simplicity and inner peace in Christianity that I do love.. The whole Gospel of Thomas, a gnostic gospel, speaks of inner peace and the kingdom of God being in each of us, and hell being in each of us too if we do not find the perfection in the Now.

 

I guess I am just stuck at

 

1) picking a group to associate myself with..

2) Being angry at myself for wanting to label my belief system.

 

Some of you had to have started out as Christians..

 

How do you do this? Do you still associate with Christianity and Taoism/Buddhism?

 

Do you go down both paths?

 

How did you conquer this, or approach this?

 

Thanks.

[Lucky7Strikes]

You can't travel both paths.

 

I believe that Jesus Christ was an enlightened being, but much of his message seems to have been lost in politics. They burnt many records and gospels. We will never know for sure.

 

I personally do believe that the Christian God exists, but that he too is a fallible being. Anyways, the word "God" seems to be better understood as a verb.

 

Trust in what you believe is a sound teaching. Carry your doubts as far as they take you! .

[fiveelementtao]

Hi Fox,

I relate to your crisis. I was a devout protestant Christian for the first 22 years of my life. I almost became a Protestant minister until I had a similar crisis. My thought process was, "If God goes to all the trouble to create his children and then sends them to hell simply for a "mistake" in their intellectual belief process, then, I cannot follow that God." I left the Church not because I didn't believe but because I could not worship a God that punishes his children out of ego. I was prepared to go to hell for eternity just to make a statement. I do not say that lightly. It was the darkest time in my life and I thought about suicide. Of course as time went on, I came to see that Christianity was just another belief by humans doing their best to try and understand... I also suggest doing some research on the origin of the "Bible", especially on the council on Nicaea. You will see that the beliefs of modern Christianity have little or nothing to do with the historical Man Jesus. You can still choose to follow the teachings of Christ and reject the obvious flaws in the belief system. I also recommend looking into "Ex christian" support groups. I came to learn that many christian organizations and churches are actually cults. It took me a while to realize this and to heal from the mind control techniques. Just because Christianity is one of the largest world religions does not mean it isn't a cult. The good news is that you can still retain the best parts of your christian faith and relationship with God and reject the obvious flaws...

If you want to talk more, you can PM me...

Mike

Edited September 15, 2009 by fiveelementtao

[Marblehead]

Hi Fox,

 

I think that if you put your remaining Christian beliefs into proper perspective you can still give your talks to the youth group.

 

There are many wonderful teachings in the Christian religion.

 

My best friend is a non-denominational Christian. Sure, we do sometimes disagree if we get into a direct discussion of religion but the basics of how we should conduct ourselves in life still remainvery much the same.

 

I was brought up Christian but lost faith in the religion in my late teens.

 

Follow your heart and I think that you will rarely be at odds with the Christians you associate with as long as you don't get involved in any discussion of the dogmatic aspects of Christianity.

 

Happy Trails!

[Aetherous]

Christianity that is taught most everywhere is a false religion...made up along the way. The very points that you bring up: Jesus is our savior, God is a big guy in the clouds taking notes on us, we are going to eternal hell if we don't accept Jesus is the savior, etc...if you actually study the scriptures, you come to find that all of that is fabrication.

 

And of course, it just simply doesn't make much sense to anyone with half a brain. Sorry to those I offend, but it's truly what I believe.

 

So to truly be a Christian, a follower of Christ, all of the fabrication must be rejected (on a personal level, don't go trying to save everyone from the false Christianity or something).

 

It's hard to do this when so many other "Christians" ascribe to it, and you are expected to say the things they do...but just be yourself, be firm in your beliefs, let other people believe whatever they think is right, and don't think you need to label yourself as something...and you'll be okay.

 

We are all human beings first and foremost...why not just think of yourself as that.

[CarsonZi]

Hi Fox.....

 

I've come into a crisis. This wasn't even a crisis till I tried labeling things

 

Isn't that always the way IME the use of "labels" and "definitions" is one of the major causes of seperation from the Divine. Pure existance just Is....no labels, no definitions....just Blissful Union with All.

 

however at times, I guess things do need a label.

 

They do make it easier to discuss things, but in the end discussion only goes so far....personal experience, actually DOING, is what goes all the way.

 

I believe in a higher power, but I do not believe in a God of personification, I believe in a God that is everywhere, that is in the smile of others and in the curve of the horizon, a God that is in the water and trees. He may posess a physical form, but that form is beyond my realm of comprehension.

 

Sounds good to me

 

I believe that Jesus Christ was an amazing enlightened being, but I am not sure about him being a saviour, honestly, after 12 years of Christian schools I'm not really sure I get why he is our saviour,

 

What is there to be "saved" from anyways? The only thing we need saving from is "ourselves" (small "s"), and the only one who can save us is "Self/Source/Love/Tao/WhateverYouWantToCallIt/ThatWhichCannotBeNamed". Jesus was a (literally) shining example of how to "save oneself".

 

I mean, we are all "God's children".. right?

 

Absolutely! We are all Divine sparks.

 

I am also unsure of a christian afterlife, I don't believe that a loving creator would let someone burn in hell for eternity because they are a bad person.

 

This one I used to laugh at even when I was a Christian....I used to say to my pastor and my youth group leaders and my Christian friends; "God/Hell/Judgement Day doesn't scare me one bit....God couldn't judge me harsher then I judge myself....Hell will be a piece of cake if it is "God's" hell."

 

Now I have come to realize that "God" and "I" are One. That I am a manifestation in everyway of "God"...just like a God that "is in the smile of others and in the curve of the horizon, a God that is in the water and trees." We each are the "Creators" of our existance. We are all "Ultimate Creators".

 

I know this isn't a Christian forum, but I just have been really into Eastern thought, and I give talks to a youth group and help with a local Christian church, and lately I feel out of place.. Though I think my talks on stillness and breaking concepts of what God could be are very helpful, I just don't think I am..well a Christian.

 

Ah....labels labels labels. Such a shame we let the labels ruin the message

 

But what does that even mean? I think Jesus was a great guy.. I think he was a Buddha.. I just don't think I owe anything to a creator, and I get a lot of that vibe in Christianity.. I think we are our own Saviours in a sense.

 

 

But then there are these glimpses of simplicity and inner peace in Christianity that I do love..

 

These are not exclusive to Christianity in any way. These exist regardless of "religion" or labels. These glimpses (and more, in fact the entire VIEW) is within each and every one of us....just waiting to be seen.

 

The whole Gospel of Thomas, a gnostic gospel, speaks of inner peace and the kingdom of God being in each of us, and hell being in each of us too if we do not find the perfection in the Now.

 

Yes, I always loved the Gospel of Thomas .....such a great representation of what I would consider "real Christianity" or what some may call "esoteric Christianity".

 

I guess I am just stuck at

 

1) picking a group to associate myself with..

2) Being angry at myself for wanting to label my belief system.

 

1.) Why must you be part of a "group"? I know many here seem to see that as necessary, but it isn't for me in any way. Take what works and leave the rest is my motto. I have (almost) always considered myself a "spiritual anarchist" of sorts though.

 

2.) Let go of the need to judge yourself. Find that stillness within and release that anger to the stillness. Forgive yourself.

 

Some of you had to have started out as Christians..

 

Here it was 12 years give or take a year or so.

 

How do you do this? Do you still associate with Christianity and Taoism/Buddhism?

 

Do this? Break away from Christianity or become a Christian?

 

My entire extended family consider themselves Fundamentalist Evangelical Christians, so I still associate with Christians, but I do not consider myself a "Christian". I do like to think that I have learned from the example of Jesus Christ, but I see no need to ritualize those lessons, nor do I feel the need to worship the Divinity in Christ anymore then I feel the need to worship the Divinity in myself....which is to say that I worship everything equally as "God".

 

I also spend a long period of time of my life considering myself a "Buddhist"....and I was very active in the community. I still attend a Buddhist Principles class once a week, but I am not a "Buddhist". I do like to think that I have learned from the example of the Buddha, but I see no need to ritualize those lessons, nor do I feel the need to worship the Divinity in Christ anymore then I feel the need to worship the Divinity in myself....which is to say that I worship everything equally as "God".

 

Do you go down both paths?

 

There is only one path and that is "your" path. You can't get off "your" path. Your path is wherever you are right now. I would suggest that you meditate every day, but don't even think about it. Just do it. And then go out and enjoy your life!

 

How did you conquer this, or approach this?

 

If you are talking about "conquering" my mindset of being a "Christian", it took time, for me it took marijuana (I am NOT recommending this), and it took me realizing that Truth is individual. There are no Absolute Truths, there are just Paradoxes....like "Stillness in Action" or "Active Surrender"....and trying to understand these things with the mind is futile.

 

If I were you, which I am not, so take this with a grain of salt, I would start a daily stillness meditation practice of some sort. Personally I practice AYP (Advanced Yoga Practices) Deep Meditation: http://www.aypsite.org/13.html (free online lesson). This practice (and the rest of the AYP system) changed my life dramatically. Don't know what it will take for you to "conquer" this, but only you will know.

 

Best of luck!

 

Love,

Carson

Edited September 15, 2009 by CarsonZi

[King Kabalabhati]

To me so many of the written words of Christ are rebelling and liberating in spirit, with a stubborn denunciation of the social and political norm. It's amazing how they turned him into cults, but I guess you can make mind-control, politics and powerplay out of any teachings.

 

My godhead, shown to me with pure lovingkindness, is Haile Selassie the first, and he is a follower of Jesus. So I have two great incarnations of the Almighty as my spiritual shepherds, but from very different times and walks of life (Jesus was a "Tao bum", His Majesty was.. well, is His Majesty )

 

So how does Tao fit in all of this? Well, everything that exists fits into existence, even when it doesn't fit into my limited but steadily expanding consciousness. So I try not to think there's a controversy. To me Tao is like a science that explores the deepest truths of Creation. His Majesty and Jesus Christ could have been just "ordinary" guys with some extraordinary powers, and it could be my delusion that there's divinity in them... But wait, there's divinity in me too! So what if its all in my head? It's a godly head of creation. What works, works. I take my guidance from where I get it. Otherwise I might miss it altogether. His Majesty woke up my energetic realisation. So it was Him who gave me the gift of the Tao. And now I can live a cleaner life, with less negativity, just like the Father would have it. And to love more and more, because love is energy and not a social drama. That's to me what Jesus was also trying to tell them. Of course he couldn't reveal esoteric ways to increase one's loving capacity in technical terms even if he knew them (I think he did) because in those days it would've meant a certain death penalty, which he received later on anyway.

 

His Majesty has stated that religion is a personal matter. So while I hail him as a godhead, I give in my mind everyone the freedom to hail their own god, or remain godless. And I believe if everyone had a similar attitude... well, what a little bit more wonderful world this would be. LOvE AND RESPECT!

[Creation]

Hi Fox.

 

Since you joined this forum I was just about counting the days till you made this post. Because this issue had to come up. Usually for the exact same reason you stated: the concept of eternity in hell. It really doesn't make sense.

 

I was a devout Christian for most of my life, until about two years ago. There were a lot of factors coming together to make that change. Yet in a sense, I still am a Christian. What sense is that? After all I don't really believe a lot of the systematic theology you would be taught in any Christian denomination. But I've cultivated a relationship with Jesus my whole life, and that doesn't just go away. It is my personal experience that Jesus is still around and very much accessible to humans.

 

But questions still remain.

 

Theological: What is the Supreme being, really? Does such a being exist? Who is YHWH, the being who communicated the Torah to Moses on Mt. Siani? Who was Jesus? Why did he come to the world, what did he do, what is it's significance, and what is he doing now? What is the relationship between these three?

 

Historical: What did the Jesus and his apostles really teach? How has that changed over the years and why?

 

I have not answered these questions for myself yet, and I may not in this lifetime. "We see through a glass darkly"... you know the rest. It is important to me to keep seeking answers to these questions. But I consider that peripheral to the Great Work of cultivating the True Heart and Original Nature. Something tells me that that is what Jesus wants for me.

 

Something that might comfort you is that many of the church fathers did not believe in eternal hell for all unbelievers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Universalism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_reconciliation

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apocatastasis

 

On a side note, since fiveelementtao mentioned it, there is a lot of the stuff out there about Nicaea, Constantine, Pagan Mystery religions, etc. and everybody and their dog has a theory about what really happened to create the Christianity that eventually became what we know today. I am of the opinion that most of this is total crap. Seriously, most people who try to talk to me about Nicaea have no idea what they are talking about and are just parroting some nonsense they heard that sounded quasi-historical. And then there are those who draw parallels between Christianity and mystery religions and on that basis say "Christianity is a complete fabrication." Seriously?

 

Good fortune to you on your spiritual path,

Tyler

[Prince...]

Interesting topic and interesting answers. I was once in your same position, Fox. The funny thing is, at least once a week I find myself in that same position!

 

I gave a hard look at becoming a Buddhist. I had the opportunity to study under a Taoist priest. One of his students introduced me to Qigong and had me read "The Magus of Java." When I couldn't stop talking about John Chang, he said,"my teacher is gonna say if you want to know about John Chang that you should go study with him." Well, through everything, I could not give up "my Jesus." I decided that maybe I should further explore my faith as a Christian. When I say faith, I do not mean proper beliefs in doctrines and dogmas. I mean a real connection to God, the Source or whatever you want to call it. The same way a Taoist aims to be in accord with the Tao, the Christian's goal should be to be in accord with the will of God. We don't reach that process by sitting in pews on Sunday mornings!

 

You know, when I first read the title for the topic,"A God Crisis," I thought of an anecdote I read a few weeks ago. A campus minister asked a student when they were going to stop by the chapel and pay him a visit. The college student says,"well, I don't really believe in God." The chaplain smiles and says,"really, and which God is that because I might not believe in that one either!"

 

There really is a lot of bullshit to Christian practice as it stands today. Instead of just doing away with it all, have you considered stripping away the unnecessary things?

 

I really feel that I can type pages and pages on this topic, but I will give someone else a chance to speak and spare everyone eyes.

 

If it matters to anyone, I am in the first year of a 3-year ordination process for my church, Presbyterian Church (USA) and a 1st year Seminary student. I have had a hard time finding two people with the same views when it comes to God and spiritual practice. Do I sometimes get frustrated or feel like I am the only one? Yes...but no matter what tradition you pick up, you WILL experience the same thing at some point-- that's why it is our own personal spiritual walk.

[fiveelementtao]

 

On a side note, since fiveelementtao mentioned it, there is a lot of the stuff out there about Nicaea, Constantine, Pagan Mystery religions, etc. and everybody and their dog has a theory about what really happened to create the Christianity that eventually became what we know today. I am of the opinion that most of this is total crap.

Well, I'm not trying to suggest anything too complicated. But there is some historical objective facts about the creation of the modern Christian bible about which many christians do not know. The christian bible was compiled from a select few of many existing christian scriptures. The Bible emerged at a time when Christianity was very diverse. Many other scriptures that were widely read at that time were not included in the Bible because it did not serve the political aims of the roman emperor who was looking to use christianity as a means to consolidate his empire. But many of the current teachings of christianity encouraged free thought and were not conducive to population control. The fact of the matter is that a group of men appointed by the roman emperor sat around a table and decided what scriptures were of God anf which ones weren't. These Men felt they had the right to decide what God did and did not say and then put it all together in one book and proclaimed that this one book was now the absolute and infallible word of God. All others were forbidden reading. This bible was then immediately used as an excuse to kill and torture fellow christians who did not subscribe to this new "Word of God". Instead of being a guide to spiritual thought as most other scriputres are seen in other religions, the Bible became a tool of control. And the end result is that people now unswervingly follow the teachings of this book as "The Infallible Word of God." when it is no more than a compilation of SOME scriptures... This the danger, that a group of MEN can decide for everyone else what God did and did not say...

[gendao]

My personal opinion as of late:

 

God doesn't punish us, we punish ourselves.

God only wants us to learn.

"Mistakes" are only lessons to be learned.

Although we don't have to learn only by mistakes, either.

We just learn by solving problems - like in math class.

Which aren't necessarily "things gone wrong,"

But more like challenges or riddles to be solved.

 

I accept Jesus as an avatar of undying compassion & unconditional love.

But through the heart, not the mind.

If you study "Christianity" cerebrally,

You will only chase wild geese in illogical circles!

Through a twisted maze and distorted inkblot,

Seeing only whatever you want to see.

Edited September 15, 2009 by vortex

[Sloppy Zhang]

Hmm, started out as a Catholic, so here we go....

 

1) picking a group to associate myself with..

 

That's one important thing. It's hard to find people who are on a similar path to you, especially if you're one of those self-cultivation, "it's a way of life", want-to-find-the-truth types......

 

I know plenty of Christians, they go to youth groups, events, meet lots of people, rub elbows with some adults who own businesses, volunteer places, get jobs, you know, all part of the Christian "community". So the social aspect is a strong pull, and honestly.... it's hard to get past that sometimes.

 

2) Being angry at myself for wanting to label my belief system.

 

Don't be angry with yourself. Realize that it is a natural process, that everyone goes through periods like this, and everyone wants to find a label for things. Take psychology 101, that's just how your brain works, it categorizes and labels, it facilitates learning and memory, nothing to get angry about

 

Some of you had to have started out as Christians..

 

How do you do this? Do you still associate with Christianity and Taoism/Buddhism?

 

Do you go down both paths?

 

How did you conquer this, or approach this?

 

Thanks.

 

Well here are my beliefs now.....

 

God is super all powerful and ever present and everything, right? So you can't really limit him to some "heavenly body", because.... he'd have to exist here too, and, if he's EVERYWHERE, he'd have to be able to see, well, hell too, right? And be able to be there as well. And, he'd be able to read your mind and know what you are thinking, even if you don't believe in him. So, when you start thinking about it, it REALLY starts to... mess with the Christian conception of God.... I mean, the whole idea that God is some being to pray to, or whatever..... I mean it's kinda silly, he's everywhere so....... (and yeah I shoulda capitalized all the H's in that paragraph.... sorry God..... but God would already know? Hmm....)

 

As for Jesus. I don't really know what to make of him. As a Catholic, the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit are part of the Holy Trinity. They are all individuals, but they are all one in God (part of the Divine mystery, you know) So I still feel kind of uncomfortable saying, "Well Jesus was just a really enlightened human." So for me, the jury is still out on Mr. Christ.

 

Regardless of how I feel about his position in the spiritual hierarchy, there are a lot of good messages that Jesus teaches in the Bible, and if more Christians were a bit more serious in following some of those teachings, we'd have a better world I think.

 

And, to that extent, there are a lot of very similar teachings to Jesus' teachings all over the world, in all types of cultures. I found that when I "left" Christianity, the further I "went away" from it, the more I dedicated myself to cultivation and trying to become a better person, the more I realized I was acting in a Christ-like manner, which is what the Christians were always on about not to inflate my ego, or bear the sin of pride.....

 

When it comes to the concept of Hell and things like that.... hm... I still don't really know honestly I'm thinking about other aspects of spiritualism/religion/etc that deal with how to live life, as opposed to what happens after I die.... maybe I'll worry about it when I get close to dying but I have heard an interesting concept in a few places, and that is when you die, spirits/souls that share similar beliefs/attitudes tend to congregate. So a person with a kind, gentle spirit will find other kind/gentle spirits to hang out with, and they affect the area they are around, so that creates a more "heavenly" type area. People with "evil" or dangerous, malicious spirits will attract and be attracted to spirits of like ill-intent, influencing the area they are inhabiting and therefore creating a "hell".

 

Which means that, when it comes down to "heaven" and "hell", it's really not an external judgment, and it's really not one or the other. If you fall into a shade of gray category, you'll find other shades of gray types. If you are an innocent person that is wrongly accused, your innocence will be revealed in the way your spirit behaves, and if you did something "bad" but for the best of purposes, you'll find your place too I think. But I'm not quite sure how strongly I feel about this at the moment so.... keep reading

 

For religions in general, I refer to the story of the blind men who went to see the elephant

 

So when it comes to "what path(s) do you take? How does path A compare to path B?" well.... I don't really think of it that way. It's all part of the bigger truth. You don't have to follow one path.... everything that you read and come across in your life, even if you say "that's bullshit", that IS YOUR PATH. You are always on your path and you will never deviate from your path, because every single thing that happens to you gets you one step further along down the road.

 

At least that's what I believe right now, and that's where I am on my path

Edited September 16, 2009 by Sloppy Zhang

[Zenshiite]

Interesting thread. I'm not a Christian, I'm a Muslim. I think there are some questions that you're(all of your respondents as well) wrestling with or have wrestled with that you find off putting. Hell, for instance.

 

Sufi Master Ibn al-'Arabi was a gnostic metaphysician and some of the stuff he had to say regarding Hell and it's rationality, as well as Heaven/Paradise, in relation to God is quite different from the notion that God is some petty being in the sky arbitrarily judging people for their intellectual goof ups. In essence, what is he says is that the universe is the place of manifestation of God's Names and these Names are usually categorized as Names of Majesty/Wrath/Justice and Names of Beauty/Mercy. Paradise and Hell are also realms in the cosmic order, so even there the Names of God have to be fully manifest and indeed even more manifest there than in this realm. So Hell is a result of God's self-disclosure as much as Paradise, just in a different way. There is, of course, even the hint of Mercy in Hell and Wrath in the midst of Paradise.

 

We make our own Paradise and Hell, in what we do and what we believe... but also, just as much, in how we believe. I think one could be doctrinally "correct" and yet still so far off base that one is technically not a true believer because you've mistaken the signposts of your creed to be the final word on God's Nature which is so far beyond our comprehension that it defies definition and quantification. I'm not going to limit God by mistaking how I understand God's Wrath or Mercy to be the absolute truth of what those things are ontologically. I really don't know, what I believe as a Muslim and what I do as a Muslim just works for me. And I feel enriched investigating other traditions that pique my interest.

 

One other thing, Christianity has been around a long time... I find it hard to believe that, with a little digging, there might be some pretty old material out there that addresses some of your concerns. It might be more mainstream or it could be something that was deemed "heretical" by the Nicean Council ages ago.If you still feel a strong connection to Christianity and the Christian experience, it might serve you well to really start digging as deeply as you can to the 2000 years of traditions... exoteric and esoteric. Don't just give up on it because most contemporary Christians don't vibe with you. Most contemporary Muslims don't vibe with me, but I'm sure having a blast exploring the deep and rich traditions that Islam has esoterically, exoterically and philosophically.

 

Peace,

Dawud

[Creation]

Well, I'm not trying to suggest anything too complicated. But there is some historical objective facts about the creation of the modern Christian bible about which many christians do not know. The christian bible was compiled from a select few of many existing christian scriptures. The Bible emerged at a time when Christianity was very diverse. Many other scriptures that were widely read at that time were not included in the Bible because it did not serve the political aims of the roman emperor who was looking to use christianity as a means to consolidate his empire. But many of the current teachings of christianity encouraged free thought and were not conducive to population control. The fact of the matter is that a group of men appointed by the roman emperor sat around a table and decided what scriptures were of God anf which ones weren't. These Men felt they had the right to decide what God did and did not say and then put it all together in one book and proclaimed that this one book was now the absolute and infallible word of God. All others were forbidden reading. This bible was then immediately used as an excuse to kill and torture fellow christians who did not subscribe to this new "Word of God". Instead of being a guide to spiritual thought as most other scriputres are seen in other religions, the Bible became a tool of control. And the end result is that people now unswervingly follow the teachings of this book as "The Infallible Word of God." when it is no more than a compilation of SOME scriptures... This the danger, that a group of MEN can decide for everyone else what God did and did not say...

I agree that most Christians are ignorant about the origins of the canon, and seem to think it was more or less written handed down by God Himself written in stone. But on the other end of the spectrum, I think those who (think they) know something generally make far too much of Constantine and successive emperors' roles in all that. (Actually, most people will just talk about Constantine, as if he personally decided which books were canonical. Ugh...). Consider this: During pagan times, no emperor ever gave an official dictum "This is the version of the [Greco-Roman] creation myth that is true and if you don't believe it you will be punished." But starting with the Arian controversy, Christans got really riled up over theological disputes, and wanted to establish "This is the correct doctrine and everyone who doesn't believe this creed exactly as we have defined and worded things is wrong." So when Constantine grated favored status to Christianity, he said "Hey, stop arguing and figure it out. You are making me look bad." And this set a precedent that whichever side would win the latest argument would use imperial power to suppress those holding other views. So I think what really "went wrong" with Christianity was the obsessive emphasis on "orthodoxy" based on precisely worded definitions, creeds and doctrines. Not (as it is currently fashionable to believe) some shady arrangement between Emperors and Bishops to create a religion to unify the empire by selectively picking and modifying Christian documents and throwing in a liberal amount of repackaged mystery religion. Not that you were necessarily saying that, it's just a common view that I wanted to address.

Edited September 16, 2009 by Creation

[Mal]

[33865_1494798762]

I've come into a crisis. This wasn't even a crisis till I tried labeling things, however at times, I guess things do need a label.

 

I believe in a higher power, but I do not believe in a God of personification, I believe in a God that is everywhere, that is in the smile of others and in the curve of the horizon, a God that is in the water and trees. He may posess a physical form, but that form is beyond my realm of comprehension.

 

I believe that Jesus Christ was an amazing enlightened being, but I am not sure about him being a saviour, honestly, after 12 years of Christian schools I'm not really sure I get why he is our saviour, I mean, we are all "God's children".. right?

 

I am also unsure of a christian afterlife, I don't believe that a loving creator would let someone burn in hell for eternity because they are a bad person.

 

Average life span-100 years (i'm an optimist).

Time maybe spent in hell- ETERNITY

 

Doing the math wouldn't that make God an ass?

 

I know this isn't a Christian forum, but I just have been really into Eastern thought, and I give talks to a youth group and help with a local Christian church, and lately I feel out of place.. Though I think my talks on stillness and breaking concepts of what God could be are very helpful, I just don't think I am..well a Christian.

 

But what does that even mean? I think Jesus was a great guy.. I think he was a Buddha.. I just don't think I owe anything to a creator, and I get a lot of that vibe in Christianity.. I think we are our own Saviours in a sense.

 

But then there are these glimpses of simplicity and inner peace in Christianity that I do love.. The whole Gospel of Thomas, a gnostic gospel, speaks of inner peace and the kingdom of God being in each of us, and hell being in each of us too if we do not find the perfection in the Now.

 

I guess I am just stuck at

 

1) picking a group to associate myself with..

2) Being angry at myself for wanting to label my belief system.

 

Some of you had to have started out as Christians..

 

How do you do this? Do you still associate with Christianity and Taoism/Buddhism?

 

Do you go down both paths?

 

How did you conquer this, or approach this?

 

Thanks.

 

"I've come into a crisis" - Are you sure?

Believing and the object we claim to believe in are two different things. They have nothing to do with each other.

That is why a religious being is in a neurotic state of mind, you want two different things at the same time, and this is also why you have to do a lot of things to be loved by your god. - What a sorry baloney.

 

Life is about living, not about how to live. The how-to-live is what is creating your dilemma.

Why care about it?

 

Here is what - I can make it very easy for you, but you probably don't want that:

Realise, there never was a historical Jesus in the first place, The Romans invented him as such. Before the romans it was an astrological event in the sky. The "new" testament can be dated as fare back as 3000 bc.

It's the fact and it solves your problem.

Edited September 16, 2009 by Guest

[33865_1494798762]

I've come into a crisis. This wasn't even a crisis till I tried labeling things, however at times, I guess things do need a label.

 

I believe in a higher power, but I do not believe in a God of personification, I believe in a God that is everywhere, that is in the smile of others and in the curve of the horizon, a God that is in the water and trees. He may posess a physical form, but that form is beyond my realm of comprehension.

 

I believe that Jesus Christ was an amazing enlightened being, but I am not sure about him being a saviour, honestly, after 12 years of Christian schools I'm not really sure I get why he is our saviour, I mean, we are all "God's children".. right?

 

I am also unsure of a christian afterlife, I don't believe that a loving creator would let someone burn in hell for eternity because they are a bad person.

 

Average life span-100 years (i'm an optimist).

Time maybe spent in hell- ETERNITY

 

Doing the math wouldn't that make God an ass?

 

I know this isn't a Christian forum, but I just have been really into Eastern thought, and I give talks to a youth group and help with a local Christian church, and lately I feel out of place.. Though I think my talks on stillness and breaking concepts of what God could be are very helpful, I just don't think I am..well a Christian.

 

But what does that even mean? I think Jesus was a great guy.. I think he was a Buddha.. I just don't think I owe anything to a creator, and I get a lot of that vibe in Christianity.. I think we are our own Saviours in a sense.

 

But then there are these glimpses of simplicity and inner peace in Christianity that I do love.. The whole Gospel of Thomas, a gnostic gospel, speaks of inner peace and the kingdom of God being in each of us, and hell being in each of us too if we do not find the perfection in the Now.

 

I guess I am just stuck at

 

1) picking a group to associate myself with..

2) Being angry at myself for wanting to label my belief system.

 

Some of you had to have started out as Christians..

 

How do you do this? Do you still associate with Christianity and Taoism/Buddhism?

 

Do you go down both paths?

 

How did you conquer this, or approach this?

 

Thanks.

 

 

1) picking a group to associate myself with.

Why? We experience only sharing as the fact that we are different from each other. If you focus on what we have in common you can not experience sharing - and only speculate into being one and that is not possible to question for real.

 

2) Being angry at myself for wanting to label my belief system.

If we humans don't have a problem, we will create one. I honeur you for NOT hunting others for your and there mistakes but your efforts will never the less bear no fruit. What your are frustrated about is not to be found in any symbol (christian, tao, etc.), it is within you.

 

Some of you had to have started out as Christians..

How do you do this? Do you still associate with Christianity and Taoism/Buddhism?

Those are just letters and words. You apply to them as you like. No one started out as a christian. It was forced opon them by there parrents. There natural being was destroid by fear and powertripping.

 

The only true religious man I have personally ever met, was a (Indian) atheist and he also happend to be a communist. He was everything a religious man usely clame to be. What a wonderfull time we had, we laught nonstop for a month.

 

Do you go down both paths?

They are no different - the fact, if you like so, is that the path leads only back - You go down no path at all.

If you get old enough, hopefully someone will feed you and you will poo in your pants.

 

How did you conquer this, or approach this?

There is nothing t conquer. All religions are different traditions, symbols, rituals of the same culture.

The Koran tells this wonderfully straight into your face: In order to meet god you will have to be naked (100%), you will have to leave all your things behind, incl. your religious believes, OK.

Edited September 16, 2009 by Guest

[markern]

How about investigating centering prayer? It is a form of christian contemplation/prayer/meditation that is very much like vipassana and leads to the same realizations. If you go to dharmaovergorund you will find some people that know a bit about it and also practice vipassana.

 

In fact a lot of the cchristian contemplative tradition is more or less in line with the direction you are heading. You could read. The cloud of unknowing, st. john of the cross, meister eckhardt, gnostic stuff and thomas merton. And perhaps commentaries on those first because I think the lingo is very hard to penetrate.

 

Most christians where I am from do not believe in a litteral hell at all. There realy are completly different ways to be a christian. I have recently become aware of just how much qoutes from the bible actualy point towards a more mystical apraoch. Jewish mysticism, including meditation etc. was well developed before Jesus and I see that as a strong argument in favour of such an aproach being ok, inf act the prefered aproach. The Gospel of thomas is also great by the way. Some say it is very Zen, I found it more tantric. There realy are a bunch of was to be a Christian. The Sufis and the Kabalah I think offer great inspiration to thos wanting to follow a christian contemplative path. They are also abrahamitic religions so the theological dilemas are mostly the same I suppose.

[33865_1494798762]

I've come into a crisis. This wasn't even a crisis till I tried labeling things, however at times, I guess things do need a label.

 

I believe in a higher power, but I do not believe in a God of personification, I believe in a God that is everywhere, that is in the smile of others and in the curve of the horizon, a God that is in the water and trees. He may posess a physical form, but that form is beyond my realm of comprehension.

 

I believe that Jesus Christ was an amazing enlightened being, but I am not sure about him being a saviour, honestly, after 12 years of Christian schools I'm not really sure I get why he is our saviour, I mean, we are all "God's children".. right?

 

I am also unsure of a christian afterlife, I don't believe that a loving creator would let someone burn in hell for eternity because they are a bad person.

 

Average life span-100 years (i'm an optimist).

Time maybe spent in hell- ETERNITY

 

Doing the math wouldn't that make God an ass?

 

I know this isn't a Christian forum, but I just have been really into Eastern thought, and I give talks to a youth group and help with a local Christian church, and lately I feel out of place.. Though I think my talks on stillness and breaking concepts of what God could be are very helpful, I just don't think I am..well a Christian.

 

But what does that even mean? I think Jesus was a great guy.. I think he was a Buddha.. I just don't think I owe anything to a creator, and I get a lot of that vibe in Christianity.. I think we are our own Saviours in a sense.

 

But then there are these glimpses of simplicity and inner peace in Christianity that I do love.. The whole Gospel of Thomas, a gnostic gospel, speaks of inner peace and the kingdom of God being in each of us, and hell being in each of us too if we do not find the perfection in the Now.

 

I guess I am just stuck at

 

1) picking a group to associate myself with..

2) Being angry at myself for wanting to label my belief system.

 

Some of you had to have started out as Christians..

 

How do you do this? Do you still associate with Christianity and Taoism/Buddhism?

 

Do you go down both paths?

 

How did you conquer this, or approach this?

 

Thanks.

 

It is fear that makes you believe that you are living and that you will be dead.

 

What we do not want is the fear to come to an end. That is why we have invented all these new minds, new sciences, new talks, therapies, choice less awareness and various other gimmicks.

 

Everything that goes on in the world, is an expression of that what takes place inside mind, inside us - we are it.

The world is inside the mind. We only recognises the world, or not at all.

It does not make sense to fight or appreciate different things out there, because it was never, ever out there from the beginning.

 

Peoples problem with the world, is that they count them self out of it. When people reject the world, because it is terrible, they reject them self as well and they immediately get into trouble.

In reality, the thought is the only thing separating experiences in to divided qualities:

response/stimulus, high/low, birth/death, me/not me, inside/outside, good/better, saviour/terrorist, Saint/sinner, etc.

 

But thought is an illusion. With out the illusion there is no separation.

No matter political interest, are you one having a problem with the world, incl. wars or incidents like 9/11, it has to do with the fact that you don't want to recognise that it is you.

Edited September 18, 2009 by Guest

[markern]

You can also read the book zen and the bible. The book awareness by anthony de Melo can also be recomended, he is a jesuit priest that has gotten enlightened (to a degree anyway).

[Prince...]

[markern]

[wudangspirit]

Why do you have to pick a group? Your Tao (way) is your Tao! All of the naming and categorizing cannot define and explain who WE are as spirit or person. Only YOU can know who you are and once you love that person nothing else matters because that love will show and shine on the outside too. That is why the saying "the eyes are the windows of the spirit."

 

Give up the need to define yourself and just be yourself. This is primal virtue.

 

Tao Bless

 

I've come into a crisis. This wasn't even a crisis till I tried labeling things, however at times, I guess things do need a label.

 

I believe in a higher power, but I do not believe in a God of personification, I believe in a God that is everywhere, that is in the smile of others and in the curve of the horizon, a God that is in the water and trees. He may posess a physical form, but that form is beyond my realm of comprehension.

 

I believe that Jesus Christ was an amazing enlightened being, but I am not sure about him being a saviour, honestly, after 12 years of Christian schools I'm not really sure I get why he is our saviour, I mean, we are all "God's children".. right?

 

I am also unsure of a christian afterlife, I don't believe that a loving creator would let someone burn in hell for eternity because they are a bad person.

 

Average life span-100 years (i'm an optimist).

Time maybe spent in hell- ETERNITY

 

Doing the math wouldn't that make God an ass?

 

I know this isn't a Christian forum, but I just have been really into Eastern thought, and I give talks to a youth group and help with a local Christian church, and lately I feel out of place.. Though I think my talks on stillness and breaking concepts of what God could be are very helpful, I just don't think I am..well a Christian.

 

But what does that even mean? I think Jesus was a great guy.. I think he was a Buddha.. I just don't think I owe anything to a creator, and I get a lot of that vibe in Christianity.. I think we are our own Saviours in a sense.

 

But then there are these glimpses of simplicity and inner peace in Christianity that I do love.. The whole Gospel of Thomas, a gnostic gospel, speaks of inner peace and the kingdom of God being in each of us, and hell being in each of us too if we do not find the perfection in the Now.

 

I guess I am just stuck at

 

1) picking a group to associate myself with..

2) Being angry at myself for wanting to label my belief system.

 

Some of you had to have started out as Christians..

 

How do you do this? Do you still associate with Christianity and Taoism/Buddhism?

 

Do you go down both paths?

 

How did you conquer this, or approach this?

 

Thanks.

[33865_1494798762]

Well prove it then.

 

It is written on a wall in Egypt, in hieroglyphs. It's about their main god back then. Also it's found in a book from India written in Sanskrit. The book is about Buddha and it is dated to 1500 BC. The first Greek version is a copy of that book, even the numerology is the same.

 

It is the Jesus followers task to prove his existence, not mine. But I will make it easy for you - everything about G'sub is pagan, all the rituals are ancient shaman traditions, from east to west - look it up.

Edited September 18, 2009 by Guest

[Prince...]