Thoughts on Buddhism?

[Zhuo Ming-Dao]

Chan (Zen) didn't come from Daoism. It is called Dhyana, and Shakyamuni Buddha expounded the Dhyana (Chan/Zen) teachings to Maha Kashyapa by holding up a flower. Only Maha Kashyapa smiled out of the entire assembly, and that was the first transmission of the Chan school in India, not China. It came to China through Bodhidharma, and passed down to 5 other Patriarchs...down to the 6th Patriarch Hui Neng.

 

Peace,

Lin

 

While you are, of course, absolutely correct about the lineage of Chan from Mahakashyapa and Bodhidharma, there are still many very strong academic arguments for Taoism as being a prime influence on the development of Chan once it was in China. I recommend taking a look at The Tao of Zen for more information.

 

Basically, though, many of the philosophical concepts that you see in Hui Neng, and even more in Hung Po and Lin Chi (Rinzai), look quite different from the more Indian conceptions that Bodhidharma brought with him. By the time that you look at the Chan that Dogen sees when he is in China during the late Tang dynasty, the tradition has become quite different from its roots (Koans and strange stories of masters, new terminology, shouting and sticks, shock techniques, tearing up sutras, killing the Buddha on the road, and so on). Bodhidharma laid the foundation for these developments, but Chan's interactions with Taoist teachings and practices allowed them to be absorbed and to be created along side of the Taoists.

[Encephalon]

Fully agree. My advice:

 

Start practicing Vipassana meditation (preferably in a retreat environment) and DO NOT READ ANY BUDDHIST MATERIAL.

 

This is the real Buddhism.

 

It's sad to see how humans have tampered so badly with Buddha's message. However the Four Noble Truths are still valid and they can't be manipulated:

 

1. Life is suffering

2. Suffering is caused by attachment

3. The cessation of suffering is attainable and it is called Nirvana

4. There is a path to attain Nirvana and it is called the Noble Eightfold Path, which is spiritual in essence

 

I have felt the truth of the Four Noble Truths in deep meditation and afterwards so many times, that I fully agree with it.

 

I would stay away from the rest of the Buddhist written material.

 

My apologies. I stand corrected. I haven't gotten far enough in my studies to realize that Buddhism is both BS and a religion. Nor did I get the memo that reading was counter-productive to spiritual advancement. I was also unaware that the Four Noble Truths, from which all further teachings can be derived, are impervious to manipulation and misinterpretation, as religious ideas generally are. I was utterly ignorant of the fact that we can jettison other forms of learning and acquire perfect wisdom just by feeling it while we're in deep meditation.

 

Thanks for setting me straight.

[mat black]

Stay away from written Buddhist material? Well that all depends on who the authour is Some don't know what they are saying, others have an intellectual idea, others speak and act from wisdom and genuine understanding - these are the ones we can trust.

 

The Venereable Master Hsuan Hua was a Chan patriarch and many also say that he was a Bodhisattva.

 

Here is a PDF of his talks on Chan

 

http://dharmasound.net/Master-Hua-English/...0Wisdom%202.pdf

 

Audio links are here: Words of Wsdom.

 

http://www.drba.org/online/audio/dharma.as...talogID=12.html

[JustARandomPanda]

Perhaps it would be helpful to read the words (at least some of them) of the Buddha himself? That's what I plan to do.

 

I am saving up my pennies to get the following:

 

In the Buddha's Words: An Anthology of Discourses from the Pali Canon (Teachings of the Buddha)

 

and

 

The Dhammapada: A New Translation of the Buddhist Classic with Annotations

 

 

The Dhammapada (Book and Audio-CD Set): Teachings of the Buddha - same book as the one above but also comes with a supplementary CD.

[Zhuo Ming-Dao]

Perhaps it would be helpful to read the words (at least some of them) of the Buddha himself? That's what I plan to do.

 

I am saving up my pennies to get the following:

 

In the Buddha's Words: An Anthology of Discourses from the Pali Canon (Teachings of the Buddha)

 

and

 

The Dhammapada: A New Translation of the Buddhist Classic with Annotations

The Dhammapada (Book and Audio-CD Set): Teachings of the Buddha - same book as the one above but also comes with a supplementary CD.

 

 

Why get the various collections of his words when you can pick up the whole thing

 

http://www.amazon.com/Long-Discourses-Budd...0536&sr=1-1

 

http://www.amazon.com/Middle-Length-Discou...pd_bxgy_b_img_b

 

Sure, it is a lot more reading than just the super slim Dhamapada, but then you have basically the whole Pali Cannon at hand whenever you need a reference or advice on something specific. Besides, Amazon has an amazing price on the Long Discourses.

[Sunya]

just get What Makes You Not a Buddhist (book) and don't listen to people who tell you not to think for yourself and give you terrible advice like not to read Buddhist books lol

[Marblehead]

just get What Makes You Not a Buddhist (book) and don't listen to people who tell you not to think for yourself and give you terrible advice like not to read Buddhist books lol

 

That made me laugh. I hope it wasn't covertly directed toward me. The Buddha gave the world some excellent guidance.

 

But I think that one should read the founders' works first and then decide which direction they wish to go from there. Buddha, Lao Tzu and Jesus were all very enlightened individuals. What was developed after them is questionable, in my opinion.

 

Happy Trails!

[林愛偉]

 

Basically, though, many of the philosophical concepts that you see in Hui Neng, and even more in Hung Po and Lin Chi (Rinzai), look quite different from the more Indian conceptions that Bodhidharma brought with him. By the time that you look at the Chan that Dogen sees when he is in China during the late Tang dynasty, the tradition has become quite different from its roots (Koans and strange stories of masters, new terminology, shouting and sticks, shock techniques, tearing up sutras, killing the Buddha on the road, and so on). Bodhidharma laid the foundation for these developments, but Chan's interactions with Taoist teachings and practices allowed them to be absorbed and to be created along side of the Taoists.

 

 

I agree, any and all things being integrated into society will be influenced by the preceding culture and lifestyle mannerisms, views, etc. Once Buddhism came to China, it shaped itself into Chinese culture. That's what Buddhism does: Works with the minds of people...which ever way they can comprehend the teachings, the teachings will take that form.

 

(Koans and strange stories of masters, new terminology, shouting and sticks, shock techniques, tearing up sutras, killing the Buddha on the road, and so on)

 

Those are methods formed through the minds of that cultural time period. They worked, and for some it still does today. Methods are myriad, some are fitting for people and some aren't. I wouldn't say that given those methods, that Chan deviated from its roots after some time in China.

 

One can say, some people have screwed it all up, but not all of Chan out of China is wrong. There are many a great masters out of China in the Chan school. Their methods were and are well and proper with the Dharma.

[Smile]

What durkhrod chogori said.

Go to http://www.dhamma.org/ and sign up for a 10 day retreat. You will understand what Buddha really taught.

[Ya Mu]

I agree with those that say direct experience transcends reading ABOUT something. It is OK and to become a scolar if that is what you wish. But I thing 10,000 years of reading ABOUT something does not bring about the experience of 1 hr of DOING something.

 

IMO ALL practices including Buddhism and Taoism are simply methods of helping a person learn reality versus illusion. This is something that has to be experienced and can not be brought about by simply reading ABOUT it. In other words it is the experiential component of all teachings that have meaning to any particular individual. And furthermore it does not matter if that particular teaching is Christianity, Buddhism, Taoism, Zorastorism or any other; truth is truth and illusion is illusion. The goal is to burn through the filters of illusion and cast any particular "ism" aside.

[Pero]

So Michael, when you studied medical qigong, did they just give you some exerices and after practicing long enough you just knew everything about medical qigong?

[Ya Mu]

So Michael, when you studied medical qigong, did they just give you some exerices and after practicing long enough you just knew everything about medical qigong?

 

If I had of just read about it I NEVER EVER would have understood what it really is. Anything worthwhile must be experienced personally or it really has no meaning.

[Pero]

If I had of just read about it I NEVER EVER would have understood what it really is. Anything worthwhile must be experienced personally or it really has no meaning.

 

Yeah I'm not thinking that we should just read about, that of course isn't enough. IMO you need both, though personal experience is more important.

[markern]

Yeah I'm not thinking that we should just read about, that of course isn't enough. IMO you need both, though personal experience is more important.

 

A lot of Zen practioners go all the way without having read much more than the heart sutra. I believe reading can help sometimes, at least for certain practices. And I think it can often help put the practices and the insight into a wider context that can be beneficial to ones life in general. Howver, I think waaaayyyyyyyyyyy to much reading is done by budhists today. And what is read is then often held as knowledge not the belief which it is. That is very unfortunate. I also think reading can be a big hindrance to meditation because you can get stuck in speculation on and of the cushion.

[Ya Mu]

Yeah I'm not thinking that we should just read about, that of course isn't enough. IMO you need both, though personal experience is more important.

 

My personal experience was that I had read every single book I could find and it all was bullshit compared to the experience of being with a real teacher and the experience of what was gained from the practice. A large part of the teachings in high level qigong come from the energy projection of the teacher, not "what he says".

IMO David's article on qigong explains all this very well.

[Zhuo Ming-Dao]

A lot of Zen practioners go all the way without having read much more than the heart sutra. I believe reading can help sometimes, at least for certain practices. And I think it can often help put the practices and the insight into a wider context that can be beneficial to ones life in general. Howver, I think waaaayyyyyyyyyyy to much reading is done by budhists today. And what is read is then often held as knowledge not the belief which it is. That is very unfortunate. I also think reading can be a big hindrance to meditation because you can get stuck in speculation on and of the cushion.

 

This is true, but those same Zen practitioners have still listened to hundreds of teisho (formal Dharma talks) from their teachers. I would think that these are the equivalent.

[de_paradise]

If its a choice between watching CSI Miami and reading a book on Buddhism, go for the book.

[Vajrahridaya]

I agree with those that say direct experience transcends reading ABOUT something. It is OK and to become a scolar if that is what you wish. But I thing 10,000 years of reading ABOUT something does not bring about the experience of 1 hr of DOING something.

 

In Buddhism, reading the mind changing concepts that work with our human powers of logic and reason IS a practice. Then we meditative to integrate it, and our information gets field tested in the realm of life.

 

Without the conceptual fortitude though that comes from real examination of the scriptures, one will not have the full round of the 8 fold path that includes the very first of the 8 as "right view".

 

So... in Buddhism, it's absolutely imperative to read the texts as that is a form of doing and experiencing in Buddhism.

 

My personal experience was that I had read every single book I could find and it all was bullshit compared to the experience of being with a real teacher and the experience of what was gained from the practice. A large part of the teachings in high level qigong come from the energy projection of the teacher, not "what he says".

IMO David's article on qigong explains all this very well.

 

It's like that in Buddhism as well. One should have a genuine guide who has made the teachings a part of his or her physical reality and life breath. Where every action is a reflection of the highest realization. That person teaches without saying anything. But it takes a sensitive student to see that and experience that. In my opinion, reading and practice is both paramount in Buddhism. Not just reading of course, and not just meditation, but both. Of course a real teacher would know exactly what a particular student needs at any particular time.

 

Until then though, one should have a firm grounding in the concepts and practice integrating them in life as reading itself is a meditation and a focusing technique. One see's as the breath calms and the body and mind are honed while reading.

 

 

This is true, but those same Zen practitioners have still listened to hundreds of teisho (formal Dharma talks) from their teachers. I would think that these are the equivalent.

 

Exactly and if our friend LeonBasin who started the thread has the good graces to find such a teacher, then all he or she would need to do would be follow that guidance with open sincerity. Only of course after he has found that this teacher is genuine and of a strong lineage of genuine information.

 

But until that time, he should get a good mind transforming idea through reading.

 

The amount of experiential epiphanies and straight into meditative experiences I've had through reading the texts would have been missed out on if I had of just opted for cushion training, LOL!

 

Indeed, do read the texts! It is a powerful practice.

Edited September 18, 2009 by Vajrahridaya

[Encephalon]

The only reason I introduced the point about the value of reading is to remind westerners of the pitfalls of misinterpreting ancient Chinese texts, because their is a very real conceptual firewall between western and eastern thought. An unschooled person could be subject to a tremendous amount of confusion and bewilderment if they had to get their minds around the suject of non-duality, for example, without a thorough background. Western thought and civilization was once described as a footnote to Plato. Are we going to come up with that insight while sitting on our zafu, or might we be introduced to the concept by a thoughtful reading plan?

 

This simple point pretty much bounced off the foreheads of just about everyone who saw fit to comment on the subject, except for the ones who have actually performed some scholastic work in the area (you know who you are!). There is a great deal of beating each other over the head with quotes from ancient texts, just like the Bible Wars that you see so much of in America.

 

As far as the Vipassana tradition goes, it really is unparalleled in terms of how its basic integrity has remained unchanged over the eons. But the idea that you would reject reading books, by, say, by Jack Kornfield, who is one of the west's leading authorities on Vipassana and Buddhist psychology, out of some misplaced fear that your path would suffer some kind of fatal divergence, is a profoundly uninformed argument.

 

Personal experience is superior, of course, and the insight from meditation will always remain the ultimate qualifier. But before that mature state is acquired, a fertile field has to be cultivated.

[Vajrahridaya]

Personal experience is superior, of course, and the insight from meditation will always remain the ultimate qualifier. But before that mature state is acquired, a fertile field has to be cultivated.

 

Indeed and reading these texts is a practice.

 

I might like to read some Jack Kornfield. I've heard his name mentioned for as long as I can remember.

[林愛偉]

Indeed and reading these texts is a practice.

 

I might like to read some Jack Kornfield. I've heard his name mentioned for as long as I can remember.

 

 

Reminds me of the story of Ven. Ananda who always read and read, but never developed concentration and wisdom through meditation. When he was overcome by a mantra to persuade him to be with a woman during his begging run, the Buddha sent his disciple to recite the mantra by mind outside the prostitute's house and awaken Ananda, and bring him and the woman back to see the Buddha. Hence, the speaking of the Shurangama Sutra for the sake of the Shurangama Mantra.

 

Ananda thus realized that book knowledge is good on one hand, but application of such in meditation is another realm altogether.

 

both must be matched.

 

Peace,

Lin

Edited September 18, 2009 by 林愛偉

[Vajrahridaya]

Fabulous!! That's two birds with one stone. Or two disciples with one mantra. If Ananda hadn't of made that mistake and hadn't of been listening during all those lectures, he wouldn't have had that Eureka moment and that prostitute would never have met the Buddha too. Lucky hooker!!

Edited September 18, 2009 by Vajrahridaya

[Encephalon]

Indeed and reading these texts is a practice.

 

I might like to read some Jack Kornfield. I've heard his name mentioned for as long as I can remember.

 

The Wise Heart (Kornfield) is priceless. A therapist friend of mine says it's really making the rounds within the mental health/counseling community.

Edited September 18, 2009 by Blasto

[Vajrahridaya]

The Wise Heart (Kornfield) is priceless. A therapist friend of mine says it's really making the rounds within the mental health/counseling community.

 

Wonderful. I was thinking about going into Psychology in school. So, thanks for that recommendation.

[林愛偉]

After Ven. Ananda awoken to the Dharma and applied himself in application,

he was foremost in remembering the Sutras the Buddha spoke. When the Buddha

entered Nirvana, Ven. Ananda took to the Lion's Seat and began to speak the Dharma with the phrase:

 

"Thus, I have heard..."

 

And from then on, the Sutras were written with this as the beginning of the first sentence to proclaim that

indeed it was the Buddha who spoke, yet the Sutras were remembered and spoken in regards to the Buddha's actual words.

 

When Ven. Ananda took to the Lion's Seat to speak the Dharma, the Buddha's disciples were in awe...some thought the Buddha didn't enter Nirvana and stayed to speak the Dharma, other's thought Ven. ananda himself became a Buddha. But once he uttered those four words, "Thus, I have heard..." the disciples knew indeed that it wasn't the Buddha, and that Ananda didn't claim to be a successor to the Dharma, but he had awakened to the truth that no teachings can be claimed for one's own, that they can only be replayed in different ways for different mind-conditions. Also, that Ananda indeed remembered the Buddha's words, and thus proclaimed them as discourse, reciting them and commenting on them.

 

Meditation is first and foremost to train the mind, Sutra studies plants the seeds of enlightenment. Vice, verse, the Dharma isn't fixed/limited. It is THUS according to the minds of living beings.

 

Peace,

Lin

 

Fabulous!! That's two birds with one stone. Or two disciples with one mantra. If Ananda hadn't of made that mistake and hadn't of been listening during all those lectures, he wouldn't have had that Eureka moment and that prostitute would never have met the Buddha too. Lucky hooker!!

 

 

If he hadn't almost broken his precepts, we wouldn't have the Shurangama Sutra and Mantra!

The prostitute also became a cultivator of the Buddha Dharma.

 

Lucky us!

Edited September 18, 2009 by 林愛偉