Thoughts on Buddhism?

[Eviander]

No, that's Television your talking about.

 

No. I'm talking about the actually establishment called "Buddhism" world wide. Yes they might have secrets undisclosed to the west in some far east cults..but again..the word religion appears before it.

 

 

This is the real Buddhism.

 

It's sad to see how humans have tampered so badly with Buddha's message. However the Four Noble Truths are still valid and they can't be manipulated:

 

1. Life is suffering

2. Suffering is caused by attachment

3. The cessation of suffering is attainable and it is called Nirvana

4. There is a path to attain Nirvana and it is called the Noble Eightfold Path, which is spiritual in essence

 

I have felt the truth of the Four Noble Truths in deep meditation and afterwards so many times, that I fully agree with it.

 

I would stay away from the rest of the Buddhist written material.

 

Yea if your interested in comparative religions I guess..but most of it contains the same mess Christianity has (hells, loyalty to the state, loyatly to family customs..ect.).

 

But as for the Buddhas message..I could simply state that life only becomes suffering once you perceive it to be. So to layer that with Taoist philosophy..or some more modern existentialism..life is neither suffering or none suffering..it simply is..values only come when we apply them in our logical framework.

 

Anyways the Buddah as a teacher had some sound advice..but you could say the same thing about Jesus (if he existed, which is off topic). The point being the religion that followed simple parables is perverted. Like every other religion in part it is used by governments to neuter their subjects. Why do so many countries with Buddhism as their religion have totalitarian governments..hmm?

[林愛偉]

No. I'm talking about the actually establishment called "Buddhism" world wide. Yes they might have secrets undisclosed to the west in some far east cults..but again..the word religion appears before it.

Yea if your interested in comparative religions I guess..but most of it contains the same mess Christianity has (hells, loyalty to the state, loyatly to family customs..ect.).

 

But as for the Buddhas message..I could simply state that life only becomes suffering once you perceive it to be. So to layer that with Taoist philosophy..or some more modern existentialism..life is neither suffering or none suffering..it simply is..values only come when we apply them in our logical framework.

 

Anyways the Buddah as a teacher had some sound advice..but you could say the same thing about Jesus (if he existed, which is off topic). The point being the religion that followed simple parables is perverted. Like every other religion in part it is used by governments to neuter their subjects. Why do so many countries with Buddhism as their religion have totalitarian governments..hmm?

 

 

Even demons and mischievous people's can cultivate the Buddha Dharma. If they do wrong with it, it doesn't represent Buddhism as flawed, only the mind of the cultivator being flawed.

[Eviander]

Even demons and mischievous people's can cultivate the Buddha Dharma. If they do wrong with it, it doesn't represent Buddhism as flawed, only the mind of the cultivator being flawed.

 

What does that mean..really..and what is wrong?

[林愛偉]

What does that mean..really..and what is wrong?

 

 

Meaning, anyone can cultivate the Buddha Dharma, what they do with it is all according to their own mind.

[Vajrahridaya]

No. I'm talking about the actually establishment called "Buddhism" world wide. Yes they might have secrets undisclosed to the west in some far east cults..but again..the word religion appears before it.

 

Uh hu... and it has enlightened countless beings. I like this organised religion better than I like disorganized and chaotic thinking plaguing the world. This organized religion has incredible time tested methods and a clear morality that works with the natural psychology of humanity.

 

I'm glad your opinion is merely that and not a fact.

 

Some people just like to see the bad.

[林愛偉]

Uh hu... and it has enlightened countless beings. I like this organised religion better than I like disorganized and chaotic thinking plaguing the world. This organized religion has incredible time tested methods and a clear morality that works with the natural psychology of humanity.

 

I'm glad your opinion is merely that and not a fact.

 

Some people just like to see the bad.

 

 

Though much of the Sangha should be presenting Morality as its golden shining armor, it is sadly flawed due to the lack of control and cultivation of much of those in the Sangha, not all but a good many.

Many certain sects of Buddhism, once reaching the west, acted on their desires, and hurt many people through immoral acts. It is something that is rampant in most institutionalized religious organizations in our "modern" world.

 

Usually, the marker for such immoral acts is the empowering of sexual acts as a means to attain enlightenment, empowering of desires, and materialism is also another marker for deviant practices for those claiming to be of Buddhist cultivation.

Edited September 18, 2009 by 林愛偉

[Vajrahridaya]

Why do so many countries with Buddhism as their religion have totalitarian governments..hmm?

 

A Monarchy isn't always a bad thing. This has recently been considered a bad thing due to the Western Capitalist and highly flawed system of Democracy where the ignorant are brain washed into who to vote for through popular consumerist culture propaganda feeding stations called Tell-a-lie-vision, that is taking over the world. There have in fact been very just Kings in the history of the East and even recently.

Edited September 18, 2009 by Vajrahridaya

[Sunya]

A lot of Zen practioners go all the way without having read much more than the heart sutra. I believe reading can help sometimes, at least for certain practices. And I think it can often help put the practices and the insight into a wider context that can be beneficial to ones life in general. Howver, I think waaaayyyyyyyyyyy to much reading is done by budhists today. And what is read is then often held as knowledge not the belief which it is. That is very unfortunate. I also think reading can be a big hindrance to meditation because you can get stuck in speculation on and of the cushion.

 

please show evidence of these Buddhas who became fully enlightened by just meditating and not understanding the view? understanding the philosophy is very important in Buddhism. very. you won't get anywhere unless you kn ow where you're going. all schools of Buddhism say this.

 

practice and study are equally important.

[Eviander]

Meaning, anyone can cultivate the Buddha Dharma, what they do with it is all according to their own mind.

 

Alright. The same goes for any religion, but I think our points have been disclosed.

[林愛偉]

Alright. The same goes for any religion, but I think our points have been disclosed.

 

 

 

Peace and Blessings.

[Zhuo Ming-Dao]

No. I'm talking about the actually establishment called "Buddhism" world wide. Yes they might have secrets undisclosed to the west in some far east cults..but again..the word religion appears before it.

Yea if your interested in comparative religions I guess..but most of it contains the same mess Christianity has (hells, loyalty to the state, loyatly to family customs..ect.).

 

But as for the Buddhas message..I could simply state that life only becomes suffering once you perceive it to be. So to layer that with Taoist philosophy..or some more modern existentialism..life is neither suffering or none suffering..it simply is..values only come when we apply them in our logical framework.

 

Anyways the Buddah as a teacher had some sound advice..but you could say the same thing about Jesus (if he existed, which is off topic). The point being the religion that followed simple parables is perverted. Like every other religion in part it is used by governments to neuter their subjects. Why do so many countries with Buddhism as their religion have totalitarian governments..hmm?

 

I think that the "opiate of the masses" argument put forth by Marx and Engles was made pretty much worthless after we got a chance to see what communism did with their atheist states. The situation was and is absolutely no better. In fact, I think that it is worse in many ways, since people tend to not have strong sources of hope and they have no basic ethical model to guide their lives. Like it or not, socially proscribed ethics and morality is very important for societies to run smoothly, even if these things can sometimes be restrictive for the spiritually inclined minority. I would personally be terrified to live in a country made up purely of existentialists, even though I love the study of existentialism and personally believe in many of its tenants. I just do not have that much faith in the masses, I guess, to suggest that everyone think that there is no absolute right or wrong. Maybe this is just the high school teacher in me.

 

Totalitarian governments exist plentifully in countries with Christianity, Buddhism, Atheism, and practically any other -ism. Even an (agnostic) democratic state can run into some pretty horrible tyranny of the majority. This is a universal societal problem that every group most fight to counter, no matter what the predominant religion or belief might be.

[Eviander]

Uh hu... and it has enlightened countless beings. I like this organised religion better than I like disorganized and chaotic thinking plaguing the world. This organized religion has incredible time tested methods and a clear morality that works with the natural psychology of humanity.

 

I'm glad your opinion is merely that and not a fact.

 

Some people just like to see the bad.

 

How many Buddhist texts have you read? because honestly..I was interested in Buddhism till I bought the texts and read them. I'm not sure what enlightenment your talking about either..because there are various definitions of enlightenment coming from different traditions. But yes..it is indeed my opinion.

 

A Monarchy isn't always a bad thing. This has recently been considered a bad thing due to the Western Capitalist and highly flawed system of Democracy where the ignorant are brain washed into who to vote for through popular consumerist culture propaganda feeding stations called Tell-a-lie-vision, that is taking over the world. There have in fact been very just Kings in the history of the East and even recently.

 

From my viewpoint governments always carry bad things with them. Monarchy being one of it's worst manifestations (king/queen represented as god and goddess figures..their human where human..its hogwash..ect.)

[Vajrahridaya]

.

 

Usually, the marker for such immoral acts is the empowering of sexual acts as a means to attain enlightenment, empowering of desires, and materialism is also another marker for deviant practices for those claiming to be of Buddhist cultivation.

 

Ok, clearly you don't understand Tantra. Which is why your not a Vajrayana practitioner.

 

This would be an entirely different argument. But, I don't agree with you. Tantra transmutes desire, it doesn't increase desire.

 

Sexuality is a means to enlightenment, just like everything else. A puritanical and negating attitude towards sex, making it taboo is more destructive than it's healthy utilization and integration into the dharmic flow of an individual through training.

 

Highest Yoga Tantra has enlightened many beings. The actual practice is very difficult to pursue and not meant for everyone, as the subjugation of the natural flow of sexual energy into spiritual potency is rather difficult, it being the most powerfully externalizing energy in the body. So to bring it under one's control and internalizing it through the inner alchemy of tantric practice and comprehension is something that is not for everyone. Just as becoming a monk and channeling the energy through sitting meditation is not for everyone. But, a good Tantrika does both.

 

Like you said above, it's not the Dharma that's at fault, but the way individuals use it. All this Neo Tantra going around is just part of many peoples process to get to the higher stuff. Or some people just don't have the capacity and merit to get to the real Tantric practice which has very little to do with sex. There are plenty of Tantric monks who don't have sex at all. There are very few beings who practice any real tantric sex. For the most part, the real practice is a real secret reserved for the most adept practitioners who have the focus and meditative strength to engage in such powerful practices that enlighten one very quickly.

[Eviander]

I think that the "opiate of the masses" argument put forth by Marx and Engles was made pretty much worthless after we got a chance to see what communism did with their atheist states. The situation was and is absolutely no better. In fact, I think that it is worse in many ways, since people tend to not have strong sources of hope and they have no basic ethical model to guide their lives. Like it or not, socially proscribed ethics and morality is very important for societies to run smoothly, even if these things can sometimes be restrictive for the spiritually inclined minority. I would personally be terrified to live in a country made up purely of existentialists, even though I love the study of existentialism and personally believe in many of its tenants. I just do not have that much faith in the masses, I guess, to suggest that everyone think that there is no absolute right or wrong. Maybe this is just the high school teacher in me.

 

Totalitarian governments exist plentifully in countries with Christianity, Buddhism, Atheism, and practically any other -ism. Even an (agnostic) democratic state can run into some pretty horrible tyranny of the majority. This is a universal societal problem that every group most fight to counter, no matter what the predominant religion or belief might be.

 

Communism has never been instituted properly so it's hard to make that analysis. So that does not invalidate the argument that religion is a opiate for the masses...especially with the influx of modern psychological studies and science. But this political discussion is really off topic..I don't know if it should be brought into this thread. And yes I agree...governments use different tactics as time and understanding develop.

[林愛偉]

please show evidence of these Buddhas who became fully enlightened by just meditating and not understanding the view? understanding the philosophy is very important in Buddhism. very. you won't get anywhere unless you kn ow where you're going. all schools of Buddhism say this.

 

practice and study are equally important.

 

 

Hui Neng did indeed have the capacity to understand principle and the philosophy behind the cultivation and teachings.

 

 

6th Patriarch Hui Neng upon hearing a verse from the Diamond Sutra awakened while he was selling firewood before he left his home. He couldn't read, but he could hear, and snuck a peak during the 5th Patriarch's Dharma Talks after he left his home to live in a monastery. hehe

Hui Neng was able to comment on Sutras due to his clear and awakened mind. people from all over would come to him with questions from various Sutras and he would help them understand... of course he had the conditions for it and the previous cultivation.

While he lived in the temple under 5th Patriarch, Hui Neng was called a country bumpkin, barbarian. After he left home and shaved his head, many people still didn't believe he was "qualified" to be the 6th Patriarch, and many times assassination attempts on his life occurred and failed.

 

Each person's conditions are indeed dependent upon their karma. Awakening is dependent upon lifetimes of cultivation for that goal.

[JustARandomPanda]

The people who are saying to ditch reading the books I think are just reminding everyone that the Map is not the Territory.

 

I think as long as one keeps that in mind then reading the Buddha's words or assorted Buddhist commentaries won't be detrimental to one's life.

[林愛偉]

Ok, clearly you don't understand Tantra. Which is why your not a Vajrayana practitioner.

 

This would be an entirely different argument. But, I don't agree with you. Tantra transmutes desire, it doesn't increase desire.

 

Sexuality is a means to enlightenment, just like everything else. A puritanical and negating attitude towards sex, making it taboo is more destructive than it's healthy utilization and integration into the dharmic flow of an individual through training.

 

Highest Yoga Tantra has enlightened many beings. The actual practice is very difficult to pursue and not meant for everyone, as the subjugation of the natural flow of sexual energy into spiritual potency is rather difficult, it being the most powerfully externalizing energy in the body. So to bring it under one's control and internalizing it through the inner alchemy of tantric practice and comprehension is something that is not for everyone. Just as becoming a monk and channeling the energy through sitting meditation is not for everyone. But, a good Tantrika does both.

 

Like you said above, it's not the Dharma that's at fault, but the way individuals use it. All this Neo Tantra going around is just part of many peoples process to get to the higher stuff. Or some people just don't have the capacity and merit to get to the real Tantric practice which has very little to do with sex. There are plenty of Tantric monks who don't have sex at all. There are very few beings who practice any real tantric sex. For the most part, the real practice is a real secret reserved for the most adept practitioners who have the focus and meditative strength to engage in such powerful practices that enlighten one very quickly.

 

Nope. I do understand Tantra, and it was a method to be taught to high level cultivators who had attained close to 8th and 9th stage Bodhisattva levels. It wasn't intended for anyone to utilize Shuang Shen Xiu (Dual Sexual Cultivation) technique unless they had already severed their views of lust. The method was for those of a sound mind, without deviance in their mind for lust and desire.

 

Peace,

Lin

[Vajrahridaya]

How many Buddhist texts have you read? because honestly..I was interested in Buddhism till I bought the texts and read them. I'm not sure what enlightenment your talking about either..because there are various definitions of enlightenment coming from different traditions. But yes..it is indeed my opinion.

 

How many? I don't know. I've been reading Buddhism along with all other religions for 20 years now. Enlightenment is defined by the passification of psychological suffering and liberation from unconscious rebirth. Period. That's in every tradition. It's expanded upon in different ways in different traditions.

 

From my viewpoint governments always carry bad things with them. Monarchy being one of it's worst manifestations (king/queen represented as god and goddess figures..their human where human..its hogwash..ect.)

 

Like I said, in the history of the East, there have been successful Monarchy's. Not perfect, but successful. Including in Nepal and Bhutan. Tibet has had it's share of up's and down's as well. There have also been some Indian Dharma Kings in history that were successful.

 

Nope. I do understand Tantra, and it was a method to be taught to high level cultivators who had attained close to 8th and 9th stage Bodhisattva levels. It wasn't intended for anyone to utilize Shuang Shen Xiu (Dual Sexual Cultivation) technique unless they had already severed their views of lust. The method was for those of a sound mind, without deviance in their mind for lust and desire.

 

Peace,

Lin

 

Oh ok... you do understand then. But yes... there is a lot of neo-tantra going around. It's quite suspect. But, everyone has their process and if their intentions are good, these intentions will bare fruit.

[Sunya]

Alright. The same goes for any religion, but I think our points have been disclosed.

 

bunching all religions into one because of your past bad subjective experiences of a certain religion here in the West isn't very wise. sure religions aren't perfect because they are afterall run by humans and are prone to err but that doesn't necessarily equate them all, and there could be some religions that are less corrupt, more evolved, and more practical than others.

 

if you don't follow a path, then who are you going to follow? your own deluded mind? yeah that's a better guide

[林愛偉]

 

Oh ok... you do understand then. But yes... there is a lot of neo-tantra going around. It's quite suspect. But, everyone has their process and if their intentions are good, these intentions will bare fruit.

 

 

Any method can be used to cheat people. We just have to be quick to find how much a questionable method is emphasized.

 

Peace and Blessings,

Lin

[Vajrahridaya]

The people who are saying to ditch reading the books I think are just reminding everyone that the Map is not the Territory.

 

I think as long as one keeps that in mind then reading the Buddha's words or assorted Buddhist commentaries won't be detrimental to one's life.

 

Not at all detrimental, but extremely helpful!

[Sunya]

How many Buddhist texts have you read? because honestly..I was interested in Buddhism till I bought the texts and read them.

 

Buddhism is different than other traditions in that it's not as important to read the original texts. This is very important and not understood by many, so I'll reiterate. Most religions stress the original teachings and the importance of them, we in the West are all about getting to the source because we are aware of corruption we know humans. Christians need to read the original words of Christ because that is very important to them, Christ is their figure, he is their God. Buddha is not the God here, we are not really interested in him as a person. it's more about his actual methodology that we are concerned with. and this methodology travels through time, adapating to cultures and mindsets.

 

The Buddha taught to people who are very different than people today. Not to say that people then didn't have the same desires for eternal peace and the same attachments to the illusory self. But rather the mindsets were different. Thats why there is an evolution of Buddhism where enlightened masters sort of change things up, the core remaining the same, to adapt to the changing times of humanity. So reading the original suttas might be very useful indeed, but finding a living enlightened master is even better. That's because the master, already understanding the core of Buddhism, is a living embodiment of Buddhism, and therefore is able to practically and skillfully teach you that core. the Suttas cannot do that.

 

I recommend people to read books like "What makes you not a Buddhist" instead of saying go read the Pali Suttas because I sincerely feel that it is much more pragmatic to trust a living teacher who understands our mindset rather than reading ancient scriptures, which are wonderful but can be very difficult to understand for most.

Edited September 18, 2009 by mikaelz

[Vajrahridaya]

Any method can be used to cheat people. We just have to be quick to find how much a questionable method is emphasized.

 

Peace and Blessings,

Lin

 

I do agree Lin.

 

Peace and Blessings to you as well.

 

 

I recommend people to read books like "What makes you not a Buddhist" instead of saying go read the Pali Suttas because I sincerely feel that it is much more pragmatic to trust a living teacher who understands our mindset rather than reading ancient scriptures, which are wonderful but can be very difficult to understand for most.

 

I agree Michael. The ancient scriptures have an ancient language and an ancient way of relaying messages through language due to the fact that people farmed and weren't bombarded with so much information back then so there seems to be a slower way of handling things back then. I do mostly recommend something more modern to new people, like the books I recommended earlier in this thread. I have not read "What Makes You Not a Buddhist" written by the guy who did "The Cup" and "Travelers and Magicians."

 

Here's a link...

What Makes You Not a Buddhist by Dzongsar Jamyang Khyentse

 

After reading some of the more modern disseminations of the core elements, one can read the core elements with more clarity and more reference. But, going the other way around might suit others fine as well. It's just that the ancient way of revealing knowledge is too slow for me. Reading the Pali stuff was really helpful for me personally, only after I understood the dharma through more modern sources.

Edited September 18, 2009 by Vajrahridaya

[Sunya]

it's great he teaches from the POV of Dzogchen.... the uncompounded empty nature of mind

[Eviander]

How many? I don't know. I've been reading Buddhism along with all other religions for 20 years now. Enlightenment is defined by the passification of psychological suffering and liberation from unconscious rebirth. Period. That's in every tradition. It's expanded upon in different ways in different traditions.

Like I said, in the history of the East, there have been successful Monarchy's. Not perfect, but successful. Including in Nepal and Bhutan. Tibet has had it's share of up's and down's as well. There have also been some Indian Dharma Kings in history that were successful..

 

So enlightenment is really only the disintegration of the ego which was created through socialization. For it is only your ego that causes you suffering..it created the concept in the first place. As for unconscious rebirth...that varies in various traditions..for example in hermeticism I don't get reincarnated as a fish or another human..I pass onto the astral plane..in other religions...well..the fear to believe is much worse of course. I know India had monarchies though..it's religion was created to justify their existence.

 

bunching all religions into one because of your past bad subjective experiences of a certain religion here in the West isn't very wise. sure religions aren't perfect because they are afterall run by humans and are prone to err but that doesn't necessarily equate them all, and there could be some religions that are less corrupt, more evolved, and more practical than others.

 

if you don't follow a path, then who are you going to follow? your own deluded mind? yeah that's a better guide

 

It has nothing to do with past experiences..I have only had/still have bad experiences with Christianity..which does not mean I'm going to go jump into the boat of another religion just because it came from the east.

 

I follow the path of silence..which is un-deluded by any minds.

 

 

Buddhism is different than other traditions in that it's not as important to read the original texts. This is very important and not understood by many, so I'll reiterate. Most religions stress the original teachings and the importance of them, we in the West are all about getting to the source because we are aware of corruption we know humans. Christians need to read the original words of Christ because that is very important to them, Christ is their figure, he is their God. Buddha is not the God here, we are not really interested in him as a person. it's more about his actual methodology that we are concerned with. and this methodology travels through time, adapating to cultures and mindsets.

 

The Buddha taught to people who are very different than people today. Not to say that people then didn't have the same desires for eternal peace and the same attachments to the illusory self. But rather the mindsets were different. Thats why there is an evolution of Buddhism where enlightened masters sort of change things up, the core remaining the same, to adapt to the changing times of humanity. So reading the original suttas might be very useful indeed, but finding a living enlightened master is even better. That's because the master, already understanding the core of Buddhism, is a living embodiment of Buddhism, and therefore is able to practically and skillfully teach you that core. the Suttas cannot do that.

 

I recommend people to read books like "What makes you not a Buddhist" instead of saying go read the Pali Suttas because I sincerely feel that it is much more pragmatic to trust a living teacher who understands our mindset rather than reading ancient scriptures, which are wonderful but can be very difficult to understand for most.

 

Actually it depends on the school of Buddhism...but anyways talking to a llama would be better for those interested of course. Here in the west I would assume Buddhism is dampened so the ex-christian masses can more easily accept it.