Thoughts on Buddhism?

[vsaluki]

specifically, the whole death panel bullshit.

 

Let's remember what my question was. I want not only what you consider to be "bullshit"; But also evidence that it is being propogated by a healthcare company. Where is that evidence?

 

Now, regarding the "death panel bullshit", I believe that the British government already has guidelines for the limits of healthcare to senior citizens.

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthne...on-the-NHS.html

 

and that people have already died due to such panel decisions.

 

http://www.investors.com/NewsAndAnalysis/A....aspx?id=505757

 

This is a system that you stated is "OK"

 

And I think that Rahm Emanuelle's brother has also suggested that we need such a program.

 

Now the current administration proposed to add more people to the heathcare roles and to simultaneously cut the costs. Just how do you think that is going to happen? When costs run over, as they invariably will, how will the government control costs. And what are the advisory panels for seniors suppose to do? Do they need government advisors? Aren't their doctors able to advise them on their healthcare as they are doing now. This is a new government function. Why do you think it is there?

 

So basically we see an administration that sees it's program in trouble because certain objections are raised and so they come out and declare that it's all "bullshit". But when you consider the evidence, it looks to me like their declaration of "bullshit" is bullshit.

 

broadly, the lie that you keep repeating about Obama wanting to get rid of all private companies and have Government control everything and everyone

 

Again, you are failing to trace this back to the insurance companies. And you have failed to give me an example of where government programs haven't always become larger and where government control hasn't always expanded. As I said earlier, the only reason that Obama doesn't want to try for a complete take over of healthcare is because they know that they cannot get the support. So they will take as much as they can get and leave more for later. This has always been the pattern. Without exception.

 

and we'll have 1984 on our hands.

 

We already do. "You people can't have private jets," says Nancy as she steps into her private jet.

 

"You people are too fat. It's costing our healthcare system. We are going to tax fattening food."

 

your predominant emotion is fear, be aware of that.

 

That is your predominant emotion about corporations, even though their power over our lives is small compared to government.

 

do what well? treat people? that's what the Doctors do not health insurance companies.

 

I'm talking about doing health insurace well. If you want to see the government do private functions well, look at the disaster of Fannie and Freddie.

 

and Doctors should have a more compassionate selfless motivation than just money.

 

Who are you to tell doctors what their motivation should be? Talk about 1984. If you want to become a doctor and work cheap, that's your option. Telling others what their labor is worth is not.

 

No. because the problem isn't with big government or small government or corporations.. its with people, and our selfish greedy mentality.

 

Yes, the entire human race is genetically miswired. And you are going to force them to be generous if they like it or not. Thank you comrade. What I love is the fact that a man who never sent a nickle to his impoverished brother in Africa is going to lead us to the brave new world where we are all generous at the point of the government gun.

 

and people still hold on to that view... that pure capitalism actually works.

 

I don't see very many people like that. What I see is a lot more people who think that pure socialism actually works. I asked you earlier if you supported any limits on how far our march to socialism should take us and you did not answer.

 

greed as the motivator will never produce a utopia,

 

Nothing will ever produce a utopia. But people who think that people are inherently flawed and that they have to get government to forcibly fix them will undoubtedly produce a hell.

 

and that is what we all want. so government is getting bigger to keep corporations in check,

 

And who is keeping government in check? Probably not the voters. They have become convinced by government propaganda that they can vote themselves someone else's property.

 

so until the human condition evolves,

 

Maybe you could come up with a nice government breeding program for that. The Soviet Union tried propaganda, but it just didn't cut it. People were still people. And I'm fine with people just being people. It's people who want to fix people that bother me.

 

you have no freedom.

 

That explains our failure to communicate. I hold freedom as a primary value and you declare it's none existence.

 

Tao Teh Ching

 

Fifty-Eight

When the government does not interfere,

the people are simple and happy.

When the government does interfere,

the people are tense and cunning.

 

Hau-Ching Ni translation.

Edited September 20, 2009 by vsaluki

[vsaluki]

Spare me the victim shit about tolerance. You started it when you showed up a couple days ago and started spreading your patronizing and presumptuous chicken shit.

 

Well, I guess that ends our conversation then. I suppose that trying to communicate with someone that thinks a dignified life can be "awarded" is just a waste of my time in any case.

[Sunya]

vsaluki, first of all you should learn how to use quotes, your posts are very annoying to read. secondly, how are you free? you hold your freedom to the utmost but where is that freedom? what are you free from? please show me that freedom exists.

 

I don't care about arguing politics. I never said that I support big government or any political system, I support the evolution of mankind. and until that happens, it doesn't matter which political system exists.

[Apech]

Just for clarity - since political systems are being discussed:

 

socialism:

 

a theory or system of social organization that advocates the vesting of the ownership and control of the means of production and distribution, of capital, land, etc., in the community as a whole.

 

fascism:

 

a governmental system led by a dictator having complete power, forcibly suppressing opposition and criticism, regimenting all industry, commerce, etc., and emphasizing an aggressive nationalism and often racism.

 

In the first, ways are sought by which the people as a whole can own and run services, such as health services run by the state for the common good. In the second a single person or an elite make decisions for the many - who may be benign or not depending on his/their personality.

 

Western countries now tend towards some kind of social democracy whereby power is handed to the elected few for a fixed period, whether this parliamentary democracy (e.g. UK) or a Presidential system (e.g. USA).

 

Socialism does not = fascism ... that is just a daft slogan of (ironically) the right wing.

 

I would just like to add that the National Health Service in the UK was set up in the UK following the second world war which had both crippled this country economically and caused untold suffering to its people. The feeling was that the returning 'heroes' and their families deserved a better life and that there was a moral debt to be paid in terms of living conditions and health. The problem with the NHS is that it is incredibly expensive and the doctors (who are in effect self-employed) rip the system off by charging enormous fees and 'moonlighting' on private care. If you choose to go private in the UK then you end up seeing the same consultant as you would anyway - but just a bit quicker. In terms of pharmaceuticals the NHS does not attempt to produce drugs - that is not what it is set up to do - but has to buy them from the multi-nationals, usually at high prices (for new drugs) because they are motivated by profit.

[~jK~]

Just for clarity - since political systems are being discussed:

 

socialism:

 

a theory or system of social organization that advocates the vesting of the ownership and control of the means of production and distribution, of capital, land, etc., in the community as a whole.

 

fascism:

 

a governmental system led by a dictator having complete power, forcibly suppressing opposition and criticism, regimenting all industry, commerce, etc., and emphasizing an aggressive nationalism and often racism.

 

In the first, ways are sought by which the people as a whole can own and run services, such as health services run by the state for the common good. In the second a single person or an elite make decisions for the many - who may be benign or not depending on his/their personality.

 

Western countries now tend towards some kind of social democracy whereby power is handed to the elected few for a fixed period, whether this parliamentary democracy (e.g. UK) or a Presidential system (e.g. USA).

 

Socialism does not = fascism ... that is just a daft slogan of (ironically) the right wing.

 

I would just like to add that the National Health Service in the UK was set up in the UK following the second world war which had both crippled this country economically and caused untold suffering to its people. The feeling was that the returning 'heroes' and their families deserved a better life and that there was a moral debt to be paid in terms of living conditions and health. The problem with the NHS is that it is incredibly expensive and the doctors (who are in effect self-employed) rip the system off by charging enormous fees and 'moonlighting' on private care. If you choose to go private in the UK then you end up seeing the same consultant as you would anyway - but just a bit quicker. In terms of pharmaceuticals the NHS does not attempt to produce drugs - that is not what it is set up to do - but has to buy them from the multi-nationals, usually at high prices (for new drugs) because they are motivated by profit.

 

Lao Tzu pointed to the three greats of the Tao:

 

1< The Tao = all there is in the universe.

 

2< Yin & Yang - through which we gained understanding through perspectives.

 

3< Leadership - Through which all of humanity is able to rise above the other a-a-a-animals.

Edited September 20, 2009 by ~jK~

[markern]

The US already spends about 50% more on health care than most european countries with state run health care systems. Still all comparative surveys of health care systems I have seen put the US system far behind most european systems, especialy the scandinavian ones, in terms of the services people actually receive. How on earth you manage to be sooooo ineficient over there is beyond me.

[Gerard]

Thank you! That was some great advice. What sites or books do you recommend for Vipassana meditation? Also, do you suggest practicing Tao and Zen?

 

Go to a retreat in Thailand/India/Sri Lanka. I can recommend you a place I know of in northern Thailand. Send me a PM for details.

 

In the place I have been to they don't want you to read about Buddhism and/or discuss your practice, ideas, beliefs, siddhis and all that jazz. They only want you to meditate and keep your mouth shut as it should be. It is a 3 week silent retreat that would definitively trigger your practice. Make sure your internal organs are very clean before attending or you won't be able to finish.

 

Tao, Zen are just words. Practice whatever you like.

 

Good luck.

[Vajrahridaya]

 

Tao, Zen are just words. Practice whatever you like.

 

Good luck.

 

No they are not, they are specific systems of study and practice... and I mean specific, not piled together, all are of the same sloppy serving of mashed potatoes. All this New Age BS... "don't study the words of the Buddhas because religious teachings are bad!", "all religions are one!", or "all religions are bad because Christianity is stupid!", "Tao and Zen are just words." What an epidemic of over simplification! Mush that brain power why don't you! How more epidermic can one be!?

 

LeonBasin,

 

You don't have to go all the way to the far East to get a good experience of Vipassana. But if you can actually afford to do that, unlike most people I know, then most definitely do that. But there are free or by donation silent 10 day or longer Vipassana retreats all over the states and I'm sure Europe too. Unless of course you live in the far East already, then go, go, go. Vipassana is to be experienced first hand, not read about it, but after experiencing, one should read the profound logic of the Buddhas as your mind will be fresh and open after a retreat.

[vsaluki]

vsaluki, first of all you should learn how to use quotes, your posts are very annoying to read.

 

Agree with that completely. I went back and checked the balance of my quotes three times on each of the posts that came out misformatted. Notice that sometimes my formats come out correctly. In any case, if you can tell me what I did wrong, I'd be happy to know. My quote stuff is all showing up on the page.

 

secondly, how are you free?

 

It's not an all or nothing proposition. By free I mean that I make all the choices of what I do and when I do it in my life. Obviously we all have a fairly large set of obligations that prevent that. But I still have a big chunk of my life where I can call it as I like. What I want is to maximize that chunk and to keep anyone, like the government, from reducing it.

 

Now, if you are talking about the metaphysical concept of determinism we are in a different ball game.

Edited September 21, 2009 by vsaluki

[vsaluki]

Just for clarity - since political systems are being discussed:

 

socialism:

 

a theory or system of social organization that advocates the vesting of the ownership and control of the means of production and distribution, of capital, land, etc., in the community as a whole.

 

fascism:

 

a governmental system led by a dictator having complete power, forcibly suppressing opposition and criticism, regimenting all industry, commerce, etc., and emphasizing an aggressive nationalism and often racism.

 

In the first, ways are sought by which the people as a whole can own and run services, such as health services run by the state for the common good. In the second a single person or an elite make decisions for the many - who may be benign or not depending on his/their personality.

 

Western countries now tend towards some kind of social democracy whereby power is handed to the elected few for a fixed period, whether this parliamentary democracy (e.g. UK) or a Presidential system (e.g. USA).

 

Socialism does not = fascism ... that is just a daft slogan of (ironically) the right wing.

 

Okay, let's add part 3 for the definition of socialism.

 

3. (in Marxist theory) the stage following capitalism in the transition of a society to communism, characterized by the imperfect implementation of collectivist principles.

 

Collectivization, ownership, and control of the means of production simply means that property and control are moved from the individual and are turned over to the government. The "community as a whole" thing is pure bull. Nothing is done by the "community as a whole". All decisions are made by the government. The fact that the government was elected is irrelevant. Fascists are often elected as well. So once the ownership and control of the means of production are in the hands of the government, they pretty much have complete control, just like the fascist. Now look at the part for the fascist that says "forcibly suppressing opposition and criticism". No one has done more of that and done it better than Russia, China, North Korea, Cuba, Venezuela etc. The part for the fascist that says, "regimenting all industry, commerce, etc. applies equally to socialism. Socialism may not be exactly the same as fascism, but they are very close. And they meet at the back of the circle in a thing called totalitarianism. And for the private individual that is on the receiving end of either form of government, they look very much alike. Namely that someone takes their property and tells them how to live in every aspect of their life. If anything, socialism may be more suffocating in telling people how to live. Of course the definitions leave a lot of commonality out. The Fascist dictators also had national health care.

[DalTheJigsaw123]

Bumpin'