Is there meditation in Tao

[vsaluki]

I don't recall any references to meditation in the Tao Te Ching. I don't remember Loa Tzu ever mentioning that he meditated. And I'm certain that I didn't see any methods for meditation in the Tao Te Ching. Did I miss something?

 

The next question that interests me is, what is the ratio of meditators to those that have become enlightened? There are certainly many many meditators. But there seems to be only a handful of enlightened. Is meditation a condition, but not a sufficient condition for enlightenment? U.G. Krishnamurti would argue that it is not at all necessary for enlightenment.

 

I would acknowledge that meditation can be a tool for quieting the mind. As such, it can be a healing influence for all kinds of psychological issues. But is there a necessary linkage between meditation and enlightenment?

 

Then there is the catch 22 issue regarding the seeking of results. If one engages in meditation, one is usually seeking a result or a reward. The desire for results and rewards is a product of the ego. So by seeking whatever result or reward comes from meditation, is one feeding the monster that one is supposedly trying to destroy?

[Zhuo Ming-Dao]

I would read the Original Tao, which gives a translation of the Nei Yeh and a commentary on the implications of the text. It is perhaps older then the Tao Te Ching, comes out of the same tradition, and is exclusively on meditation.

 

Also, the Chuang Tzu, the second most important Taoist text and also nearly as old as the Tao Te Ching (or older) mentions both meditation and energy work ("breathing through the heels," "the sage eats chi," and Master Chi of the Souther District, who "staring up at heaven, breathing evenly, in a trance, forgetful of all around him.")

Chuang Tzu gives a huge number of explanations of the necessity of meditation for followers of the Way and those who wish to live effortlessly in we-wei.

 

For the Tao Te Ching, how about poem #8

 

In dwelling, be close to the land

In meditation, go deep in the heart

In dealing with others, be gental and kind.

In speech, be true

In ruling, be just

In business, be competent

In action, watch the timing.

 

No fight; No blame.

 

There are plenty more if you look.

 

Also look at #12

 

The five colors blind the eye

The five tones deafen the ear

The five flavors dull the taste

Racing and hunting madden the mind

Precious things lead one astray.

 

Therefore the sage is guided by what he feels and not by what he sees.

He lets go of this and chooses that.

 

Sounds an awful lot like a basic call for meditation, no? I could keep going all day. Sometimes it is just in how you read the poems (since it is not nearly as poetic to break for and start giving meditation instructions directly, when these were probably reserved for students).

Edited September 18, 2009 by Zhuo Ming-Dao

[Ryan T.]

I don't recall any references to meditation in the Tao Te Ching. I don't remember Loa Tzu ever mentioning that he meditated. And I'm certain that I didn't see any methods for meditation in the Tao Te Ching. Did I miss something?

 

I suppose it's all in how you define meditation.

 

"Stillness is the master of unrest." "The stillness in stillness is not the true stillness."

 

I take stillness to be meditation. Plus, I think the whole of the Tao Te Ching is a meditation.

 

The next question that interests me is, what is the ratio of meditators to those that have become enlightened? There are certainly many many meditators. But there seems to be only a handful of enlightened. Is meditation a condition, but not a sufficient condition for enlightenment? U.G. Krishnamurti would argue that it is not at all necessary for enlightenment.

 

Generally those that are enlightened are only said to be that by others. I think it rare that someone that is enlightened says "You know I'm enlightened right?", just doesn't really work that way.

 

I think there are many enlightened people walking around. But enlightenment is not a one-size-fits-all hat. Enlightenment fits the individual like a glove, it can be quite personal, and perhaps is why it cannot be universally recognized.

 

Also keep in mind that one man's enlightenment is another man's garbage.

 

I would acknowledge that meditation can be a tool for quieting the mind. As such, it can be a healing influence for all kinds of psychological issues. But is there a necessary linkage between meditation and enlightenment?

 

I would say the two are not mutually exclusive or mutually inclusive.

 

Then there is the catch 22 issue regarding the seeking of results. If one engages in meditation, one is usually seeking a result or a reward. The desire for results and rewards is a product of the ego. So by seeking whatever result or reward comes from meditation, is one feeding the monster that one is supposedly trying to destroy?

 

I'm going to meditate on that one.

[DalTheJigsaw123]

Bumpin'

[vsaluki]

I would read the Original Tao, which gives a translation of the Nei Yeh and a commentary on the implications of the text.

 

I was unaware of that one. Can you tell me what title I can find that under please?

 

Also, the Chuang Tzu, the second most important Taoist text and also nearly as old as the Tao Te Ching (or older) mentions both meditation and energy work ("breathing through the heels," "the sage eats chi," and Master Chi of the Souther District, who "staring up at heaven, breathing evenly, in a trance, forgetful of all around him.")

Chuang Tzu gives a huge number of explanations of the necessity of meditation for followers of the Way and those who wish to live effortlessly in we-wei.

 

I have one called "The Book of Chuang Tzu" from Penguin. Maybe you could help me locate that in one of his stories.

 

For the Tao Te Ching, how about poem #8

 

My translation is by Hua-Ching Ni. He translates that section of sutra 8 as:

 

One of universal virtue chooses to live in a suitable environment.

He attunes his mind to become profound.

He deals with others with kindness.

In his speech, he is sincere.

His rule brings about order.

His work is efficient.

His actions are opportune.

 

I suppose that you could interpret "attunes his mind to become profound" as meditation.

 

Sutra 12 says:

 

The five basic colors cand be made into countless combinations to perplex the eyes.

The five basic tones can be made into infinite compositions to bewilder the ears.

The five basic flavors can be made into numerous stimulations to confuse the tongue.

The pursuit of worldly pleasures can make the mind wild and uncontrollable.

The one who sees the deep nature of life would rather embrace the simple subtle essence of life.

[vsaluki]

I suppose it's all in how you define meditation.

 

Yes, I have to agree that meditation is pretty broadly defined. Now if they would only include naps, then I could be a real guru. LOL.

 

On the other hand, I personally have something fairly specific in mind when I talk about enlightenment. We talk about the concept of nonduality. In my mind, someone is enlightened when they actually experience reality as a unity. One in which there is no differentiation between self and other. It's not simply understanding and accepting the idea - it's actually experiencing the world that way. Along with that experience comes the feeling that the entire world is divine and perfect as it is. Also, the concept of compassion is not an option or an ideal, such as, "you should be compassionate to others". The boundaries of self includes others, and so compassion is integral to the reality experience, not as a choice, but rather as a natural state of being. Of course the question of God also comes into play in enlightenment. I think here one feels within oneself the sourse of all creation. Reality is not a static existence outside oneself, but rather a continous process of new creation from within oneself. And when I use the words "within onself" I'm speaking in a metaphoric sense, not a bounded physical sense.

 

I have a difficult time pointing to people and saying, in my opinion, they are enlightened. I would say that Al Hallaj, Al Araby, Jesus, Lao Tse, Chaung Tzu, Bernadette Roberts, Buddha, a few of the Hindu mystics, etc are or were probably enlightened. I'm sure that there are some that never try to teach or advertise their enlightenment even indirectly. But I still believe that the number is very small. I'm just pulling a number out of my backside, but I'd say there are a thousand meditators for every enlightened person. Again, that is not to disparage meditation. I'm just saying that I don't believe that one must lead to the other. The other thing that strikes me is the inability of the enlightened to pass the experience on to their followers. I don't see where all the people that I mentioned above had much success in passing on their experience of the world to the direct followers that were with them in their own lifetime. For example, I wouldn't call a single apostle of Jesus' enlightened. And the church that supposedly derived from him is largely clueless as to what he was about. The odd thing is that the middle ages produced a few people - clerics like St John of the Cross and Meister Ekhardt that may have been enlightened. It's almost as though the enlightened pop up like mushrooms in a forest, in all cultures, ages and civilizations, rather than being the products of some teaching or meditational lineage.

Edited September 18, 2009 by vsaluki

[Zhuo Ming-Dao]

Here are the lines from chapter 8 in Chinese:

 

居善地心善淵

與善仁言善信

正善治事善能

 

Each three characters make up one of the sentences that we saw translated into English. So:

 

居善地 = Residence/reside + is good + earth = When residing, (near/on) the earth is good.

 

心善淵 = Heart/mind + is good + abyss/depth = When mind-ing, depth is good.

 

與善仁 = Together + is good + benevolence = When being together, benevolence is good.

 

言善信 = Speech + is good + truth = When speaking, truthfulness is good.

 

正善治 = Rectify + is good + order = When rectifying, orderliness is good.

 

事善能 = Business/affairs + is good + ability/skill When doing business, skillfulness is good.

 

 

As you can see, the first word in each of the word groups is acting as a verb. Therefore, in the case of 心 xin, or heart-mind, we have to turn the noun into a verb. This also would not be referring to thoughts, as it would have been easier for Lao Tzu to just use the character for thinking then to try to turn heart-mind into a verb. So the question is, what does it mean to "do" your heart or mind in an abyssal or profoundly deep way?

 

 

Here is the link to the book, The Original Tao:

http://www.amazon.com/Original-Tao-Foundat...9059&sr=8-1

[Zhuo Ming-Dao]

I have a difficult time pointing to people and saying, in my opinion, they are enlightened. I would say that Al Hallaj, Al Araby, Jesus, Lao Tse, Chaung Tzu, Bernadette Roberts, Buddha, a few of the Hindu mystics, etc are or were probably enlightened. I'm sure that there are some that never try to teach or advertise their enlightenment even indirectly. But I still believe that the number is very small. I'm just pulling a number out of my backside, but I'd say there are a thousand meditators for every enlightened person. Again, that is not to disparage meditation. I'm just saying that I don't believe that one must lead to the other. The other thing that strikes me is the inability of the enlightened to pass the experience on to their followers. I don't see where all the people that I mentioned above had much success in passing on their experience of the world to the direct followers that were with them in their own lifetime. For example, I wouldn't call a single apostle of Jesus' enlightened. And the church that supposedly derived from him is largely clueless as to what he was about. The odd thing is that the middle ages produced a few people - clerics like St John of the Cross and Meister Ekhardt that may have been enlightened. It's almost as though the enlightened pop up like mushrooms in a forest, in all cultures, ages and civilizations, rather than being the products of some teaching or meditational lineage.

 

I basically agree with everything that you have said. Meditation will not guarantee success and will not by itself give most people enlightenment. But I do think that it is a major component for setting up a situation that increases a persons odds for enlightenment. As they say in Zen, "Enlightenment is an accident, but meditation makes you accident prone." Most of the people that you listed used meditation as a tool for development prior to their enlightenment. In mean, what do we really think that Jesus was doing alone in the desert for all of that time before returning to spread the good news.

 

I think that meditation plays a role in the enlightenment of most masters (though maybe not all), and because of that, it is often offered as "an important thing to do" in addition to the cultivation of virtuous thoughts and activities (dharma/good works/etc.).

[vsaluki]

Here is the link to the book, The Original Tao:

 

Thanks. I just ordered it.