Chapter 1

[Marblehead]

All sorts of snow flying around outside right now.

Some bullshit too?

[Daeluin]

But My Dear Sir, how many times have I said that we should know our capabilities and capacities and that periodically test what we think we know to see if they have changed any?

 

I know that with age my limits have become tighter. Sure, I can still do most of the things I could do when I was younger but most take much more time now than they did before.

 

What is there to know, when everything may change? We don't need to test to see how they change, we can change them simply by the attitude we take in regards to what we think we know.

 

Zhuangzi, tl. Brook Ziporyn:

 

 

Now, if water is not piled up thickly enough, it has no power to support a large vessel. Overturn a cupful of water in a hole in the road and you can float a mustard seed in it like a boat, but if you put the cup itself in there it will just get stuck. The water is too shallow for so large a vessel. And if the wind is not piled up thickly enough, it has no power to support Peng's enormous wings. That is why he needs to put ninety thousand miles of air beneath him. Only then can he ride the wind, bearing the blue of heaven on his back and unobstructed on all sides, and make his way south.

 

The cicada and the fledgling dove laugh at him, saying, "We scurry up into the air, leaping from the elm to the sandalwood tree, and when we don't quite make it we just plummet to the ground. What's all this about ascending ninety thousand miles and heading south?"

 

If you go out on a day trip, you can return with your belly still full. If you're traveling a hundred miles, you'll need to bring a day's meal. And if you're traveling a thousand miles, you'll need to save up provisions for three months before you go. What do these two little creatures know? A small consciousness cannot keep up with a vast consciousness; short duration cannot keep up with long duration. How do we know? The morning mushroom knows nothing of the noontide; the winter cicada knows nothing of the spring and autumn. This is what is meant by short duration. In southern Chu there is a tree called Mingling, for which five hundred years is as a single spring, and another five hundred years is as a single autumn. In ancient times, there was even one massive tree whose spring and autumn were each eight thousand years long. And yet nowadays, Pengzu alone has a special reputation for longevity, and everyone tries to match him. Pathetic, isn't it?

 

Tang's questions to Ji also have something about this:

 

In the barren northland there is a dark ocean, called the Pool of Heaven. There is a fish there several thousand miles across with a length that is as yet unknown named Kun. There's a bird there named Peng with a back like Mt Tai and wings like clouds draped across the heavens. Whorling upward, he ascends ninety thousand miles, breaking through the clouds and bearing the blue of the sky on his back, and then heads south, finally arriving at the Southern Oblivion. The quail laughs at him, saying, "Where does he think he's going? I leap into the air with all my might, but before I get farther than a few yards I drop to the ground. My twittering and fluttering between the bushes and branches is the utmost form of flying! So where does he think he's going?" Such is the difference between the large and the small.

 

And he whose understanding is sufficient to fill some one post, whose deeds meet the needs of some one village, or whose Virtuosity pleases some one ruler, thus winning him a country to preside over, sees himself in just the same way. Even Song Rongzi -

 

Translator's note: Song Rongzi is another name for the philosopher Song Xing, to be discussed at greater length in Chapter 33. His doctrine that "to be insulted is not a disgrace" is acknowledged by Zhuangzi here as a salutary first step toward independence from the opinions and value judgments of convention. But as the commentators point out, this is still just a first step, which rests on making a clear and fixed distinction between self and other, safeguarding one's identity against external influence.

 

 

- would burst out laughing at such a man. If the whole world happened to praise Song Rongzi, he would not be goaded onward; if the whole world condemned him, he would not be deterred. He simply made a sharp and fixed division between the inner and the outer and clearly discerned where true honor and disgrace are to be found. He did not involve himself in anxious calculations in his dealings with the world. But nonetheless, there was still a sense in which he was not yet really firmly planted.

 

Now, Liezi rode forth upon the wind, weightlessly graceful, not heading back until fifteen days had passed. He did not involve himself in anxious calculations about bringing good fortune to himself. Although this allowed him to avoid the exertions of walking, there was still something he needed to depend on.

 

But suppose you were to chariot upon what is true both to Heaven and to earth, riding atop the back-and-forth of the six atmospheric breaths, so that your wandering could nowhere be brought to a halt. You would then be depending on -- what? Thus I say, the Consummate Person has no fixed identity, the Spirit Man has no particular merit, the Sage has no one name.

 

And, from ch2:

 

Something is affirmative because someone affirms it. Something is negative because someone negates it. Courses are formed by someone walking them. Things are so by being called so. Whence thus and so? From thus and so being affirmed of them. Whence not thus and so? From thus and so being negated of them. Each thing necessarily has some place from which it can be affirmed as thus and so, and some place from which it can be affirmed as acceptable.

 

I am happy to respect the scope others choose to operate under, I'm just pointing out it is a choice.

Edited February 12, 2015 by Daeluin

[Daeluin]

Some bullshit too?

 

Well gosh, you got me. How can I know? 'Tis a windy, sunny day, and the snow appears to be going both up and down. I don't see any on the ground, and imagine it is possible some has melted and some has re-evaporated. As to flying, I suppose that is open to interpretation... meanwhile the snow cares not what we think and simply is.

 

Sorry to Zhuangzi up a Laozi thread... but I know Marblehead loves it when I do this. Wait... what do I know?

[Marblehead]

What is there to know, when everything may change? We don't need to test to see how they change, we can change them simply by the attitude we take in regards to what we think we know.

Ah, you pinned it. "... what we think we know."

 

It is only through testing that we find out if what we think is consistent with reality.

 

 

I am happy to respect the scope others choose to operate under, I'm just pointing out it is a choice.

Yes, we have the choice to believe anything we care to believe.

 

But I suggest we test what we believe against reality now and again.

 

A turtle believes it is moving fast because it passed a snail.

 

"Fast" is a subjective and also a relative term.

 

All dualities are subjective. All my opinions are subjective.

 

Some of my understandings are based on facts as I understand them. Doesn't necessarily mean my understanding is valid. If tested and never contradicted then perhaps it can be said to be a fact.

 

Our body is of the manifest realm. It can function only in the manifest realm ("yu"). Our mind can go places our body cannot.

[Marblehead]

Well gosh, you got me. How can I know? 'Tis a windy, sunny day, and the snow appears to be going both up and down. I don't see any on the ground, and imagine it is possible some has melted and some has re-evaporated. As to flying, I suppose that is open to interpretation... meanwhile the snow cares not what we think and simply is.

 

Sorry to Zhuangzi up a Laozi thread... but I know Marblehead loves it when I do this. Wait... what do I know?

Hehehe.

 

Yes, I have seen snow like that. It sometimes happens on days with very low humidity. I have heard it called 'dry snow'. Just blows here and there and really never settles anywhere because the winds keep it aloft.

 

Going off topic has never been a problem for me. I do it all the time.

 

The Chuang Tzu quotes are mostly about perspective. Perspectives are, of course, subjective. An ant would think a cup of water to be a great ocean but an elephant would think it to be next to nothing.

 

But we still cannot go swimming if we keep one foot on land. We gotta' jump in with both feet.

[Daeluin]

Alright, perhaps I'll take that up with you in a Zhuangzi thread sometime, as I think it is a bit deeper than that. I doubt Liezi came to fly about on the wind by being mindful of limits. But of course, just a story, if that's how you see it.

[Marblehead]

Alright, perhaps I'll take that up with you in a Zhuangzi thread sometime, as I think it is a bit deeper than that. I doubt Liezi came to fly about on the wind by being mindful of limits. But of course, just a story, if that's how you see it.

Yes, we could go much deeper with that concept.

 

The Greeks had their fairy tales too.

[dawei]

The idea of 'either/or' is a very hard one to let go of.

The "thing" has some limits, yes. But all of its aspects may not be limited...

Tao is even in the dirt, yes?

Perhaps your idea of Tao has limits; mine knows none.

 

warm regards

 

So lets test this

 

Is Dao in parallel universes, other realms, other dimensions where spirits, aliens and past remembrances are ?

 

Is that Father Dao transcendent over all, or separate Daos for each ?

 

I just this is just to test how big is your Dao

[dawei]

Oh.. you think wings are needed to fly?

I've read stories of immortals flying.

 

No separation... or just a dive board away... take the plunge ?

 

I'd recommend the movies Existenz and Tron

[Marblehead]

So lets test this

Testing One Two Three.

 

 

Is Dao in parallel universes, other realms, other dimensions where spirits, aliens and past remembrances are ?

Wait a minute. Where did you find those parallel universes? And aliens and past lives and ...

 

But yes, all things have their (Natural Way) Dao.

 

Is that Father Dao transcendent over all, or separate Daos for each ?

You gave Dao a sex change? It's Mother Dao. Fathers don't give birth (except for sea horses).

 

It has been said that one can know the Mother through her children.

 

(No, I didn't answer your question.)

I just this is just to test how big is your Dao

"My Mother is bigger than your Mother" just doesn't sound right.

 

I'll pass on that one.

[Daeluin]

Surely Mother and Father are conceptualizations placed upon that which already exists, and merely mask what is true.

[Marblehead]

Surely Mother and Father are conceptualizations placed upon that which already exists, and merely mask what is true.

Shirley you are right.

[dawei]

Shirley you are right.

 

Frankly, yes.

[dawei]

Testing One Two Three.

 

You passed that test

 

Wait a minute. Where did you find those parallel universes? And aliens and past lives and ...

 

But yes, all things have their (Natural Way) Dao.

 

And that test

 

We only observe the Way in front of us but it is always going to be much bigger than what our senses along interpret.

 

You gave Dao a sex change? It's Mother Dao. Fathers don't give birth (except for sea horses).

 

I got a little nostalgic for bygone days of christianity... And if we squabble over mother vs father, then we're no long really talking Dao but duality...

[Marblehead]

You passed that test

 

 

And that test

Thanks. Passing is advancing. That's good.

 

We only observe the Way in front of us but it is always going to be much bigger than what our senses along interpret.

Yeah, that where I get in trouble a lot here, being a Materialist. But then, scientifically speaking, that's only 4% of the totality so we can see where I am.

 

I got a little nostalgic for bygone days of christianity... And if we squabble over mother vs father, then we're no long really talking Dao but duality...

Kinda' figured that. I mess with my Christian friend often about that. And I still say that it should be: God the Father, God the Mother, and God the Son.

 

And true, if we take one side or the other we are indeed caught in dualities.

[rene]

So lets test this

 

Is Dao in parallel universes, other realms, other dimensions where spirits, aliens and past remembrances are ? YES

 

Is that Father Dao transcendent over all YES, or separate Daos for each ? YES

 

I just this is just to test how big is your Dao

 

Dao's unboundaried nature may appear differently in discrete manifestations... and "big" is somewhat misleading as Dao is also as minute as it is vast. So much so - even its existance is only an idea.

 

Perpetual IMO applied.

(-:

[dawei]

even its existance is only an idea.

 

[Diacarwyn]

I have so many comments and questions: I think? No: I do. I can grasp each pervious comment: Now it's time for me to formulate my concept. Four questions: Is "wu" (wuji): a state of empitiness or stillness? What is "yu"? The Mother of the 10,000 things: Is She the Universe? Are we and other objects the 10,000 things, through-out our Mother the "Universe"?

Edited February 15, 2015 by Philip Fry

[Diacarwyn]

Edited February 15, 2015 by Philip Fry

[Diacarwyn]

Edited February 15, 2015 by Philip Fry

[dawei]

I have so many comments and questions: I think? No: I do. I can grasp each pervious comment: Now it's time for me to formulate my concept.

 

Four questions:

 

Is "wu" (wuji): a state of empitiness or stillness?

 

IMO, the simplest idea, as we're going to compare it to Yu, is: Unity

 

What is "yu"? The Mother of 10,000 things: Is the Mother, our Universe?

 

Compared to Wu: Duality.

 

Ergo, the arising of the 10,000. It is not the mother but the children. I think our universe of perceptions is good.

 

Are the 10,000 things objects through-out the Universe?

 

If we allow for parallel universes or other dimensions... I think we should stick to the idea that the 10,000 is within our 'sense' boundaries.

[Diacarwyn]

I tried posting this; however it be became scrambled: I hope this is easier to follow. I understand the previous concepts: I need to formulate one of my own. Questions: The Dao that can be spoken is The Ten Thousand Things. Are we and everything enveloped by the Universe, The Ten Thousand Things? The Dao that cannot be spoken is the Mother of the Ten Thousand Things. Is the Mother of The Ten Thousand Things, the Universe? Is "wu" wuji: stillness or emptiness? What is "yu".

Edited February 15, 2015 by Philip Fry

[dawei]

I understand the previous concepts: I need to formulate one of my own.

 

Questions: The Dao that can be spoken is The Ten Thousand Things. Are we and everything enveloped by the Universe, The Ten Thousand Things?

 

The Ten Thousand is a part of the unfolding universe which we perceive with our senses. This is our local mind understanding of 'things'.

 

I could talk beyond the "mind" but i want to let you take this in first...

 

The Dao that cannot be spoken is the Mother of the Ten Thousand Things. Is the Mother of The Ten Thousand Things, the Universe?

 

Dao is the Way it unfolds... Your car has a process by which it works. That is the "Way" your car works. Dao is the Way life unfolds, arises, returns. Dao is THE PROCESS. It is a singularity which produces multiplicity.

 

Is "wu" wuji: stillness or emptiness? What is "yu".

 

Wu and Yu are complimentary comparative.... Unity (One) vs Duality (two).

 

Yu is life as we see it...

[Diacarwyn]

Dawei, thank you for your help. I will go back through chapter #1 and re-read the posts. I'm sorry about my posts that were shuffled or unfinished. Somehow my replies jumped around. Thanks again for your help with my questions, got it. Thanks!

[Diacarwyn]

Dawei, what is IMO?