What challenges would be involved in bring Western students into contact with authentic Daoist teachers?

[Stigweard]

Heya folks,

 

I am just finishing off the last section of my academic paper for the upcoming 1st International Summit on Laozi and Daoist Culture, November 5-7, Beijing, China. I am working through a section that would list some of the challenges involved in bring Western students into contact with authentic Daoist teachers and I need your input.

 

What would these challenges be and how could the be appropriately handled?

[林愛偉]

Heya folks,

 

I am just finishing off the last section of my academic paper for the upcoming 1st International Summit on Laozi and Daoist Culture, November 5-7, Beijing, China. I am working through a section that would list some of the challenges involved in bring Western students into contact with authentic Daoist teachers and I need your input.

 

What would these challenges be and how could the be appropriately handled?

 

 

1. People would think they already understand and are "one" with the Dao already

 

2. Look for certification that they already "got it"

 

3. Possible conflict of "interests" with how Daoism is actually cultivated opposed to what most westerners assume it should be cultivated as, according to their own preference.

 

4. Culture behind Daoism and the function of how it actually integrates into society, influences people and country.

 

 

What do you think Stigweard?

 

Peace,

Lin

[wudangspirit]

I think the big challenge would be language on the surface. The other challenge I see is the traditional teaching side of things. We may not be used to "not being giving credit", not being spoiled basically. I think as Westerners we are so used to being coddled by our teachers that when we meet as teacher such as this we meet a challenge thinking that this person may be brutal or even rude.

 

Not the case. Basically a cultural challenge.

 

Heya folks,

 

I am just finishing off the last section of my academic paper for the upcoming 1st International Summit on Laozi and Daoist Culture, November 5-7, Beijing, China. I am working through a section that would list some of the challenges involved in bring Western students into contact with authentic Daoist teachers and I need your input.

 

What would these challenges be and how could the be appropriately handled?

[goldisheavy]

Heya folks,

 

I am just finishing off the last section of my academic paper for the upcoming 1st International Summit on Laozi and Daoist Culture, November 5-7, Beijing, China. I am working through a section that would list some of the challenges involved in bring Western students into contact with authentic Daoist teachers and I need your input.

 

What would these challenges be and how could the be appropriately handled?

 

People in the West value critical thinking and independent verification. An big challenge would be if the Daoist teachers expect the same kind of mindless deference they may receive in China to continue in USA. The same is true about many other teachers in many other traditions, so please don't think I am just picking on Daoism specifically.

 

People don't want to follow tradition for tradition's sake. We already have plenty of that here! If someone wants to be traditional for tradition's sake, they are Christian and they won't want to listen to a Daoist. The kind of person that will come listen to a Daoist in USA is very open-minded and more likely to be a critical thinker. This is very different from China, where I think someone coming to a Daoist would be more of a traditionalist. So the audience here is totally different.

 

The kinds of people that would consider Daoism, they value open exchange of ideas. They don't like secrecy. They don't like to be ripped off either. All our religious and spiritual institutions here are based on voluntary donations. This can be tough for the Daoists, because if they expect donations, there may not be enough people to follow them to give enough. On the other hand, if Daoists impose strict fees, people may object.

 

Another thing is this... people in the West expect spiritual people to be open and welcoming. For example, I visited one Daoist temple in San Fran, and it was not welcoming at all. The door was open, but no one was there to greet me. Finally I found a room with a bunch of Chinese people who were talking in Chinese and I didn't feel welcome to come in. The doors were closed and the vibe was "this is private, outsiders are not welcome." Maybe this is normal in China, but this wouldn't work in USA. If I come to a temple, I expect the priest to smile and welcome me and to engage me in some friendly dialogue. I don't expect a stand-offish attitude. My experience, by the way, was the same when I visited a famous Dzogchen guru... same holier-than-thou standoffish attitude. So again, please don't think I am picking on the poor Daoists here. Many traditions have this problem.

[Lucky7Strikes]

Another thing is this... people in the West expect spiritual people to be open and welcoming. For example, I visited one Daoist temple in San Fran, and it was not welcoming at all. The door was open, but no one was there to greet me. Finally I found a room with a bunch of Chinese people who were talking in Chinese and I didn't feel welcome to come in. The doors were closed and the vibe was "this is private, outsiders are not welcome." Maybe this is normal in China, but this wouldn't work in USA. If I come to a temple, I expect the priest to smile and welcome me and to engage me in some friendly dialogue. I don't expect a stand-offish attitude. My experience, by the way, was the same when I visited a famous Dzogchen guru... same holier-than-thou standoffish attitude. So again, please don't think I am picking on the poor Daoists here. Many traditions have this problem.

 

I totally agree with this. The problem isn't only with Westerners, but the willingness of the Masters to open up to the "outsiders." Daoism should not be limited to ethnicity.

 

But on the other hand, I understand why certain teachers keep it quiet. Involving the public genders a lot of needless hassle and interferes with their own practice. If the legends are true, it is probably the Master who seeks out the student when it is time.

 

But isn't it time to spread these teachings?

 

Haha, well, non of that really amounts to anything. .

Edited September 18, 2009 by Lucky7Strikes

[findley]

by the way...

 

...what authentic daoist teachers in China?

 

...Do you have any contact information you're willing to share....

 

...If they're authentic, would they really be teachers?

 

 

also, who is bringing whom? Shouldnt the trip be made on their own accord?

 

hehehe

 

of course if there is an asshole like the above guy who needs to have a teacher

 

there is always going to be an asshole willing to be his teacher, eh

 

I'm sorry, I couldnt resist

[Lucky7Strikes]

of course if there is an asshole like the above guy who needs to have a teacher

 

there is always going to be an asshole willing to be his teacher, eh

 

I'm sorry, I couldnt resist

 

Asshole.

 

(You seem to love that word. And since you like hearing things you love...well, well.)

 

I remember a thread a while back when a mo-pai practitioner wrote about how rude you were in your enquiry. Try learning mo-pai on your own or duel out John Chang and steal the mo-pai manual.

 

Or maybe you can go on pretending that you are a free "being" and what not, go on acting the way you do, and suddenly expect a lineage master to share his teachings. Or get enlightened one day in between the lines of doing whatever you "please." . Enlightenment, enlightenment. You like that word too eh?

 

Anyway, good luck. .

Edited September 19, 2009 by Lucky7Strikes

[goldisheavy]

I totally understand if someone doesn't want to get entangled in a mess. If that's the case, don't pretend. Don't bullshit the public. It was the case with this Dzogchen guy. He was definitely the kind of guy who didn't want entanglement, but at the same time, I could feel that he felt burdened with this idea that he had to appear as a "nice loving Guru" and so on, appear at public functions and act genial. Trouble is, he didn't feel genial inside, so he was half-assed at it, at best, and at worst, he appeared as a jerk. It would be far better if he dropped all that pretense and holed himself up in a cave like many other Dzogchen practitioners.

 

My point is this... if you are going to try to spread some teachings, and if you are going to try to relate to the people -- DO IT RIGHT. Smile, greet the people, welcome them, talk to them, o mighty Guru you.

 

I have a lot of bad things to say about Christianity and Christians, but this is one thing Christians got right: they welcome you to the Church, and pretty much 100% of the time, if you visit Church, you feel welcome there. That's something other religions might want to copy (I'm looking at you, Buddhists).

Edited September 19, 2009 by goldisheavy

[Encephalon]

I think the biggest challenge in bringing western students into contact with Daoist teachers would be to find western students who were sincere, humble, mature, and educated enough to be granted the honor of studying with authentic teachers. Hell, I'd have my lips sutured shut if it meant I could get a chance to study intimately.

 

Stigweard, are you concerned about cultural sensitivity issues, or hurdles of translation and transmission? Practical steps seem plausible to overcome these obstacles, but I've never travelled to China.

[Yoda]

Goldisheavy brings up many good points... how do you get past all that?

 

Specifically, I'd love to hear what any Chinese speakers think about the importance of speaking Chinese plays in understanding Taoism?

 

Thanks!

 

Yoda

[Martial Development]

In the East, the teachers expect to be flattered.

In the West, the students expect to be flattered.

[findley]

Yoda ! I think i remember appreciating your posts. .

 

Lucky, I'm sorry, I meant the other guy. My computer doesnt pick up chinese characters, so i can't reference his name directly. The guy standing by the shrine in his avatar I just wanted to call him an asshole =p

 

I guess that probably doesnt change anything you've said, though... I just wanted to let you know I dont think you're that particularly much an asshole =p

[Lucky7Strikes]

Yoda ! I think i remember appreciating your posts. .

 

Lucky, I'm sorry, I meant the other guy. My computer doesnt pick up chinese characters, so i can't reference his name directly. The guy standing by the shrine in his avatar I just wanted to call him an asshole =p

 

I guess that probably doesnt change anything you've said, though... I just wanted to let you know I dont think you're that particularly much an asshole =p

 

HAHA...

 

Thank you!

 

 

P.S. Brother Lin contributes very insightful posts on this forum. So yes, it really doesn't change anything.

[Stigweard]

Thanks for all the comments so far ... I am taking them into consideration as I am finishing of the paper.