Taoist Philosophy

[Marblehead]

[DalTheJigsaw123]

This was beautiful!!

[Marblehead]

This was beautiful!!

 

Lao Tzu and Chuang Tzu thank you. (I do too.)

 

Happy Trails!

[witch]

[Mal]

Why? Is you spirit not dwelling peacefully?

[Marblehead]

Clearly I am not a taoist!

 

Hi Witch,

 

Read it again. First, the word 'man' includes women. Second, it is not saying that we should remain in any state for any given amount of time. I live most of my life in the world of the subtleties. I think that nearly all of us do.

 

The above quote is not making judgement on which is 'better'. It is only saying that this is the way it is. We all live in the physical world. We all enjoy pleasures. Nothing wrong with that. The quote only points out that when we take those few moments of time now and then to meditate or whatever if we cleanse our mind of all desires during that period of time we will become open to the spirit of Tao - of Oneness. When our meditation is over we go back to the real world and live our life to the fullest.

 

Happy Trails!

[witch]

I have jumped up with the chakra experiences explicitly because of passion. It is desire that pulls the energy higher in me. Maybe it's different for women?

[vsaluki]

Okay, I'm still struggling with translations. I have the Hua-Ching Ni translantion. Today I went to Borders and compared four translations, including Ni's, for chapers 18-21. It's apparent that the variation is significant. I would be okay with that if the meanings were similar. But occassionally it looks like one or the other of the translators just plain screwed up the meaning. I'm basing that on the disagreement of meaning with the other translators. I went to the web site for the raw word translations that you get from clicking on the Chinese symbols; but to be honest, I can't get a logical flow doing that. I think you have to understand Chinese; and better yet, Chinese culture; and better yet, Chinese culture of the Lao Tzu era.

 

It looks like my translator, Ni, is especially loose and especially expansive in how he does his translation. Of course that doesn't mean that he is wrong. But it makes me want to verify him. In my short exploration it never looks like the majority flat out disagreed with him - so that helps a little. I believe that he's studied mysticism and the Tao all of his life, so he probably feels that he can take certain liberties. Also, if you understand Chuang Tzu and read Loa Tzu the way that Chuang Tzu might have, you tend to get Ni's translations more readily. I mean when I look at some of the more literal translations, it looks like the things that Loa Tzu hints at in them, Chuang Tzu says outright. Since I'm especially fond of Chuang Tzu, having Ni expand his translations in that direction suits my taste just fine. But if we hopefully discuss some of these chapters more deeply later on it would be good if we agreed on a translation.

 

Here is an example from sutra 20

 

From Jane English:

 

Other have more than they need, but I alone have nothing.

I am a fool. Oh, yes! I am confused.

Other men are clear and bright,

But I alone am dim and weak.

Other men are sharp and clever,

But I alone am dull and stupid.

Oh, I drift like the waves of the sea.

Without direction, like the restless wind.

 

Everyone else is busy,

But I alone am aimless and depressed.

I am different.

I am nourished by the great mother.

 

 

From Hua-Ching Ni:

 

The people of the world have more than enough.

I alone appear to have nothing.

The people of the world appear shrewd and wise.

I alone look foolish.

I like to be forgotten by the world and left alone.

 

Indeed, I have the mind of a single person!

Calm and self-contained, I am like the vast ocean.

Free and seemingly aimless, I am like a gentle wind.

 

Everyone seems so clever and self-assured.

I alone appear unlearned and original,

insistent upon a different direction

than other people pursue.

I alone value taking my sustenance

from the Mother.

 

Notice that Ni adds things like "appear" and "seem" where English does not. It makes a big difference, usless you assume that the reader knows Lao Tzu's meaning.

 

Notice that English uses the word "depressed". I didn't see that word in the literal translation. The literal translation has the symbol for "alone". But that could also be "independent". English assumes that aloneness = depression. And she may be taking Lao Tzu's words more literally than she should. In Ni's case all of those words are conditioned with the "seem" and "appear". For me, it's hard to imagine an enlightened mystic as being depressed. It would also mean that "taking your sustenance from the Mother" is somehow inferior to the company of happy men. I cannot imagine that Lao Tzu would mean that. So I have to assume that English's translation is just wrong, and that Ni's translation, while sometimes less true to the literal, is correct. Of course in the case where English uses the word depressed, she seems to be wrong both with regards to the literal and the interprative.

 

Any thoughts?

Edited September 22, 2009 by vsaluki

[vsaluki]

I have jumped up with the chakra experiences explicitly because of passion. It is desire that pulls the energy higher in me. Maybe it's different for women?

 

Try this. There is a guru named Osho. He claims to have had sex with more than 100 women. And he has published a couple of books on Tao. His behaviour and his history are very spotty. And I'm not talking about the sex. But on the other hand, his explanations of Tao are excellent.

 

I don't believe that the idea is that you cannot have passion or enjoyment. I believe that the idea is that you cannot be ruled by them and you cannot use them to feed your ego.

[Marblehead]

I have jumped up with the chakra experiences explicitly because of passion. It is desire that pulls the energy higher in me. Maybe it's different for women?

 

Hi Witch,

 

I am sure it is different for women than it is for men on many levels. (I've never been a woman so I can't say for sure. Hehehe)

 

Experiencing passion is good, I think, for both men and women. I have found that most women are able to express their passions much easier than most men are.

 

But, as I mentioned, we experience whatever level we concentrate on at any moment. When we need be in the Manifest that is where we should be - when it is time to rest we should concentrate on the Mystery.

 

Happy Trails!

 

 

I don't believe that the idea is that you cannot have passion or enjoyment. I believe that the idea is that you cannot be ruled by them and you cannot use them to feed your ego.

 

I just wanted to repeat this for emphasis.

 

Happy Trails!

[Mal]

Try this. There is a guru named Osho.

 

Osho rules I love Sex Matters: From Sex to Superconsciousness and also When the Shoe fits, but really all his books are great From Sex to Superconsciousness

[vsaluki]

Osho rules

 

I'm afraid that the story of his life makes me think of him as a bit of a fraud. 90 Rolls Royces? On the other hand, he was very bright and he gives excellent explanations of many religious concepts. His opinion is that Tao will be the last man standing after religions all sort themselves out. He has good things to say about many of the worlds great spiritual teachers. But he says that the one with whom he identifies almost completely himself is Lao Tzu.

Edited September 22, 2009 by vsaluki

[goldisheavy]

Why even bother translating Tao Te Ching? If you have such a gem as Chuang Tzu, you should be content now. You can deduce the rest by yourself.

 

I think that perhaps Lao Tzu had a more imposing and more "larger than life" personality, and that's why a tradition got established in this way, such that people find themselves reflexively appreciating Tao Te Ching more. I don't think it has anything to do with the actual value of the text. I think Tao Te Ching is a middling text, and besides a couple of good lines, it offers little to no insight. On the other hand, a text like Chuang Tzu can take you an entire life to understand. Why? Because Lao Tzu tries to say "Here's how it is, I am telling you now. Shut up, because I know how it is." Chuang Tzu says, "If someone claims to know how it is, they are a fraud. You think you know how it is? Have you considered this? How about this? And what about this question?" After you read Chuang Tzu, your mind is totally open. And after Lao Tzu, you're lucky if you get a "wow" feeling, but when the feeling wears off, you realize your mind has become more closed, because now you're even more certain than before that you understand the world and yourself.

[Marblehead]

Hi Goldisheavy,

 

I look at it a little differently. I will admit that after I read the TTC the first time my response was "What?" So I read a couple more translations. Gues what. My response was, "Oh, really?"

 

I then read Chuang Tzu and finally began to understand. I went back to the TTC and my response was, "Absolutely!".

 

This is why I always recommend that for anyone wishing to understand the basics of Taoism they read two or three different translations of the TTC, read Chuang Tzu, then go back and reread the translation they felt most comfortable with at the frist reading.

 

There is a lot of wisdom in the TTC. But it is deep wisdom and not necessarily apparent on first reading.

 

Happy Trails!

[vsaluki]

Why even bother translating Tao Te Ching? If you have such a gem as Chuang Tzu, you should be content now.

 

I'm a huge fan of Chuang Tzu. But before reading him I already had many of the same thoughts. Because of that, when I read Lao Tzu, before I read Chuang Tzu, a lot of it fell in place. I wouldn't throw Lao Tzu out. The TTC is very condensed, even though it seems very simple. You are suppose to know when Lao Tzu is being ironic - though most people don't. And sometimes when people may think that he is being ironic, he is not. Even the translators don't seem to know sometimes. I would say that if the TTC is someone's first exposure to spiritual literature it is a complete waste of time. But if you have some experience, it can be a good way to get re-grounded occasionally.

 

I'd like to be able to call together a panel of about 10 translators and let them hash out a new translation. The more mystics on the panel the better.

Edited September 24, 2009 by vsaluki

[Marblehead]

I would say that if the TTC is someone's first exposure to spiritual literature it is a complete waste of time.

 

This is an important conclusion, I think. Lao Tzu does NOT teach spirituality. Chuang Tzu dabbles in it. I have found suppliment in North American Native spirituality. I find the views between the founding Taoists and the NAs to be very compatible.

 

Happy Trails!