What makes Buddhism different?

[Vajrahridaya]

 

the fact is, everything you describe as being Buddhist... is a part of Tao.

 

 

Not to a Buddhist. To a Buddhist, the Tao is part of a Samsaric view of the cosmos. Unless your just saying it's naming the process of things without being a source of things. But as Michaelz and I have pointed out, the Tao De Ching certainly makes it clear that it's being named an impersonal source of things, not a God per say, but a homogeneous source of all existence. So is actually a Samsaric interpretation of the cosmos according to Buddhism and thus not in alignment with the Buddhist goal of liberation from Samsara, so we avoid that mysterious ambiguity all together because its an understanding that lacks clarity.

 

Now... we don't have to agree to get along. Matt proved that. So please. Smile and don't take things too personally. Even quietly call me ignorant inside yourself and arrogant, that's fine. But, just argue the point if you wish.

Edited September 23, 2009 by Vajrahridaya

[Sunya]

You do not understand this very simple statement? I'm sorry but the arrogance you guys have been showing is just ridiculous in light of this comment.

 

the comment that you either know or you don't? lol mmm ok.. settle down now Chang. maybe it's best you don't participate if you're getting so defensive. it's obvious you're attached to your beliefs.

[TheSongsofDistantEarth]

i'm perfectly happy posting on both forums, thank you.

 

there are many Buddhists here and this forum isn't strictly for Taoists as the main page says.

this was pointed out to you before a couple times, so I don't get why you keep trying to kick people out of here. you don't speak for the community. if you don't want to participate in a discussion then don't. this would probably be for the best since you never really contribute anyway. maybe that's why you respond with such anger, hostility, and sarcasm all the time? maybe you should log back in to jesusfreak and show us all how amazing you are at insulting people?

 

 

Need sense of humor, Buddhist. Take self too serious.

 

 

p.s., I'm not jesusfreak, doo-doo head.

 

p.s.s, I'm not trying to kick anybody out of here, merely if the Buddhists want to act like jackanapes, they will have to run the Tao gauntlet of sorts. Nobody comes in here and takes over like you's two an' gets away wid it, scot-free. We're too tough in here to let you's guys spout distorted dharma all over the place.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

oooh.

Edited September 23, 2009 by TheSongsofDistantEarth

[Chang San Feng]

then what does it mean then? the mother of all 10,000 things? i think every translation says basically the same thing.

 

"there is no meaning. it just is". the Tao has no meaning? or the Tao Te Ching? nobody is saying that the Tao has meaning, rather that Laozi says its the source of all things.

define exist

 

 

are you here or not?

 

Look to complicate the Tao with lengthy descriptions is just going to confuse you. No one here can tell you what the Tao is.

 

You either get it or you dont, it cannot be expressed in words.

 

so the Tao is not just the process of change/flow. its actually the name given to the All, the grand Whole. Everything. the Tao then is no different than the Hindu Brahman.

 

there is nothing beyond Shunyata as emptiness is the condition of all phenomena, to go further is to cross the red line. there is no Grand whole according to Buddhism. there is no Birds eye view. there is infinity. lhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archimedean_point Buddhists do not take the position that such a point exists

 

 

No, stop trying to label the Tao, to summarize, to conceptualize in words. It cannot be done.

 

the comment that you either know or you don't? lol mmm ok.. settle down now Chang. maybe it's best you don't participate if you're getting so defensive. it's obvious you're attached to your beliefs.

 

 

You are wrong again. Im not being defensive, you are being offended at the truth that im telling you.

 

 

Either you get it or you dont, I cannot write words to describe the Tao like you are after, its impossible. Im not trying to be rude, just stating a fact. Its an intuition, or a epiphany that you have... a realization. That cannot be put into words.

 

You cannot pick up a book and know the Tao.

Edited September 23, 2009 by Chang San Feng

[Vajrahridaya]

 

You either get it or you dont, it cannot be expressed in words.

No, stop trying to label the Tao, to summarize, to conceptualize in words. It cannot be done.

You are wrong again. Im not being defensive, you are being offended at the truth that im telling you.

Either you get it or you dont, I cannot write words to describe the Tao like you are after, its impossible. Im not trying to be rude, just stating a fact. Its an intuition, or a epiphany that you have... a realization. That cannot be put into words.

 

You cannot pick up a book and know the Tao.

 

See this is what the Buddha avoided, ultimating an experience and calling it true, transcendent and self luminous. For a Buddhist, no experience is beyond dependent origination and all experiences can be explained through both the formula and understanding of dependent origination which is "right view" of the first of the 8 fold noble path.

 

This type of mysterious ambiguity we consider part of the erroneous views or misinterpretations of meditative experiences.

[goldisheavy]

there is nothing beyond Shunyata as emptiness is the condition of all phenomena, to go further is to cross the red line. there is no Grand whole according to Buddhism. there is no Birds eye view. there is infinity. lhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archimedean_point Buddhists do not take the position that such a point exists

 

Way to take something that's meant to loosen up the dogmatic beliefs and turn it into a dogma in and of itself. Truly, some people can kill themselves with the water of life. Their stupidity is boundless.

[Vajrahridaya]

Way to take something that's meant to loosen up the dogmatic beliefs and turn it into a dogma in and of itself. Truly, some people can kill themselves with the water of life. Their stupidity is boundless.

 

Way to contribute insult master! Or...... Grand Master Insulter has now entered the premise! Dun da da!!!

[Chang San Feng]

Not to a Buddhist. To a Buddhist, the Tao is part of a Samsaric view of the cosmos.

 

 

of course it is, otherwise Buddhism would lose its essence.

 

 

BTW infinity does not exist. I can prove it to you very simply

[Vajrahridaya]

of course it is, otherwise Buddhism would lose its essence.

BTW infinity does not exist. I can prove it to you very simply

 

I'm quite sure that you can quantify infinitely, without end.................................................................................................................................. I can keep dotting................................................. endlessly...........................................

 

 

I'm using the word ambiguous too much lately. I should use the word "ominous"... a looming mystery... daunting and mind shattering!!

[Lucky7Strikes]

of course it is, otherwise Buddhism would lose its essence.

BTW infinity does not exist. I can prove it to you very simply

 

Infinity exists only in potential probabilities. Like dreams. They come to fruition through an illusionary process. So it's an infinite of "what if" possibilities acting themselves out according to this ghost like mind! It is endless and without center because nothing is actually happening. .

[Vajrahridaya]

Infinity exists only in potential probabilities. Like dreams. They come to fruition through an illusionary process. So it's an infinite of "what if" possibilities acting themselves out according to this ghost like mind! It is endless and without center because nothing is actually happening. .

 

Very good, I was going to write something along those lines just now. Infinitude is potentiality. The universal cycles have existed since beginningless time, there never was a non-existence you could say.

[Chang San Feng]

See this is what the Buddha avoided, ultimating an experience and calling it true, transcendent and self luminous. For a Buddhist, no experience is beyond dependent origination and all experiences can be explained through both the formula and understanding of dependent origination which is "right view" of the first of the 8 fold noble path.

 

This type of mysterious ambiguity we consider part of the erroneous views or misinterpretations of meditative experiences.

 

 

i'm not saying it cannot be experience, that is to know the ultimate. Im saying that language in and of itself its not sufficient to describe that experience. But thats besides the point. While you are having this experience, of everything, everything that ever was and everything that ever will be... Where do YOU reside?

 

the truth is, there is no YOU, YOU seise to exist, because YOU is an illusion, SELF is an illusion.

[Lucky7Strikes]

See this is what the Buddha avoided, ultimating an experience and calling it true, transcendent and self luminous. For a Buddhist, no experience is beyond dependent origination and all experiences can be explained through both the formula and understanding of dependent origination which is "right view" of the first of the 8 fold noble path.

 

This type of mysterious ambiguity we consider part of the erroneous views or misinterpretations of meditative experiences.

 

No no, you are again getting it wrong. It is the approach of ambiguity that is important. Not the transcendent or self luminous light or whatever. As a result there are no dogmas in Taoism. Only practitioners.

 

i'm not saying it cannot be experience, that is to know the ultimate. Im saying that language in and of itself its not sufficient to describe that experience. But thats besides the point. While you are having this experience, of everything, everything that ever was and everything that ever will be... Where do YOU reside?

 

the truth is, there is no YOU, YOU seise to exist, because YOU is an illusion, SELF is an illusion.

 

HAHAHAHAHA,

 

You just...you just might be a Buddhist!

 

.

Either you get it or you dont, I cannot write words to describe the Tao like you are after, its impossible. Im not trying to be rude, just stating a fact. Its an intuition, or a epiphany that you have... a realization. That cannot be put into words.

 

You cannot pick up a book and know the Tao.

 

And you get it?

 

Have you had the epiphany?

[TheSongsofDistantEarth]

Way to contribute insult master! Or...... Grand Master Insulter has now entered the premise! Dun da da!!!

 

 

TAOBUMS REGULATORY AUTHORITY Section 7.8, Article 3.14159265 EXPRESSLY FORBIDS THE USE OF SARCASM IN POSTING TO THREADS. THE AUTHORITY HAS DETECTED A SARCASM INDEX OF {79.95+tax and license} IN YOUR POST AND HEREBY ORDERS YOU TO CEAST AND DESIST SAID SARCASM IN YOUR POST AND SHOW SOME LOVINGKINDNESS, FER CHRIS'SAKES.

 

 

 

 

-TTMRA

[Lucky7Strikes]

double.

Edited September 23, 2009 by Lucky7Strikes

[Chang San Feng]

Very good, I was going to write something along those lines just now. Infinitude is potentiality. The universal cycles have existed since beginningless time, there never was a non-existence you could say.

 

 

true. but.

 

let me describe infinity in a simple thought experiment.

 

lets imagine a perfect circle, in a 2D universe.

 

around that circle we put an infinite number of dots, or points. Infinite remember, no spaces, no gaps.

 

Now lets draw a line from the centre of the circle to one of the dots, and continue drawing that line outward and beyond the circle to an outer extremity, let say a mile out from the centre, and the circle is a metre wide (it really does not matter just so long as you get the point, no pun). We do this for each of our infinite dots.

 

We come across a problem, because if we look at the ends of each line drawn out from the centre of the circle, we have gaps between each line.

 

this little simple thought experiment hi-lights the problem inherent with infinity.

 

of course youre a Buddhist and infinitly more wiser

 

 

Infinity exists only in potential probabilities. Like dreams. They come to fruition through an illusionary process. So it's an infinite of "what if" possibilities acting themselves out according to this ghost like mind! It is endless and without center because nothing is actually happening. .

 

 

if all possible probabilities existed.

 

then,

 

it would be like there are not possibilities at all.

[Vajrahridaya]

i'm not saying it cannot be experience, that is to know the ultimate. Im saying that language in and of itself its not sufficient to describe that experience. But thats besides the point. While you are having this experience, of everything, everything that ever was and everything that ever will be... Where do YOU reside?

 

the truth is, there is no YOU, YOU seise to exist, because YOU is an illusion, SELF is an illusion.

 

Then whats the reality? The Tao?

 

true. but.

 

let me describe infinity in a simple thought experiment.

 

lets imagine a perfect circle, in a 2D universe.

 

around that circle we put an infinite number of dots, or points. Infinite remember, no spaces, no gaps.

 

Now lets draw a line from the centre of the circle to one of the dots, and continue drawing that line outward and beyond the circle to an outer extremity, let say a mile out from the centre, and the circle is a metre wide (it really does not matter just so long as you get the point, no pun). We do this for each of our infinite dots.

 

We come across a problem, because if we look at the ends of each line drawn out from the centre of the circle, we have gaps between each line.

 

this little simple thought experiment hi-lights the problem inherent with infinity.

 

 

Think of each point as being a circle with lines coming out of it too... endlessly. All gaps are covered. Now imagine a sphere in a 3d universe and then make every other point a sphere in a 3d universe.

 

TAOBUMS REGULATORY AUTHORITY Section 7.8, Article 3.14159265 EXPRESSLY FORBIDS THE USE OF SARCASM IN POSTING TO THREADS. THE AUTHORITY HAS DETECTED A SARCASM INDEX OF {79.95+tax and license} IN YOUR POST AND HEREBY ORDERS YOU TO CEAST AND DESIST SAID SARCASM IN YOUR POST AND SHOW SOME LOVINGKINDNESS, FER CHRIS'SAKES.

-TTMRA

Take your own advice Sarcasm master.

 

There are many insult masters and sarcasm masters in here. Stigweard and Yoda are probably some of the few close to Taoist masters we have in here.

 

No no, you are again getting it wrong. It is the approach of ambiguity that is important. Not the transcendent or self luminous light or whatever. As a result there are no dogmas in Taoism. Only practitioners.

 

Sure, but I'm just saying, the goal is different. Of course you could say in Buddhism, liberation is the goaless goal, the realization of what already is... etc. yes yes...

 

But... It is a different path with a different view of the cosmos and how it works. Not that Taoism does not have greatness, from a Buddhist perspective it does. Just from a Buddhist perspective it doesn't offer liberation from Sasmara... from a Buddhist perspective.

Edited September 23, 2009 by Vajrahridaya

[Lucky7Strikes]

There are many insult masters and sarcasm masters in here. Stigweard and Yoda are probably some of the few close to Taoist masters we have in here

 

But... It is a different path with a different view of the cosmos and how it works. Not that Taoism does not have greatness, from a Buddhist perspective it does. Just from a Buddhist perspective it doesn't offer liberation from Sasmara... from a Buddhist perspective.

 

.

 

(I..sense... )

Edited September 23, 2009 by Lucky7Strikes

[TheSongsofDistantEarth]

 

Take your own advice Sarcasm master.

 

 

 

 

O, fuggedabouddit...

 

YMMV

Edited September 23, 2009 by TheSongsofDistantEarth

[ralis]

My existence is endlessly relative and never ultimate.

 

Talk about a contradiction.

 

ralis

[Chang San Feng]

No no, you are again getting it wrong. It is the approach of ambiguity that is important. Not the transcendent or self luminous light or whatever. As a result there are no dogmas in Taoism. Only practitioners.

HAHAHAHAHA,

 

You just...you just might be a Buddhist!

And you get it?

 

Have you had the epiphany?

 

 

[Vajrahridaya]

Talk about a contradiction.

 

ralis

 

I mean, non-static.

[Chang San Feng]

Then whats the reality? The Tao?

Think of each point as being a circle with lines coming out of it too... endlessly. All gaps are covered. Now imagine a sphere in a 3d universe and then make every other point a sphere in a 3d universe.

The thought game illustrates the inherent problem with the concept of infinity. Then you help prove my point by making yet more infinite possibilities, youre extra "spheres" (your addendum was rather crude and dosnt serve, but I get what youre trying to say)... missing the point entirely. That if something is infinite, how can yet more infinite possibilities come from it, for if that is possible, then, it was not infinite in the first place now was it. 3D, 2D it dosnt matter the problem still exist.

 

Infinity does not exist. Theres always... more than infinity

 

 

 

 

"Buddhist" "Taoist" are just labels and are meaningless to ultimate truth.

 

Yes I study Buddism, but I follow the Tao

 

Taoist text have a lot to teach about nature, the cosmos etc, but that is not Tao. This is what these two Buddhist fail to see, Buddhism is a Tao in itself. Theyre trying to make mystery of something that is not mysterious when we speak of the meaning of the word 'Tao' and are just misunderstanding the meaning of Tao (like there is a meaning beyond the word 'tao' itself). Understanding that, is the first epiphany one should have. lol

 

the universe IS, the void IS, it is the WAY things are, it is TAO, it cannot be explained, its simple yet profound.

 

im no one and you should not listen to me, good night

Edited September 23, 2009 by Chang San Feng

[Vajrahridaya]

 

im no one and you should not listen to me, good night

 

Ok. Oh yeah... good night to you too!

Edited September 23, 2009 by Vajrahridaya

[Stigweard]

thank you for putting time into that post.

And I return your thanks for engaging me in sincere dialogue

if the Tao is merely the process then why do Taoists talk about merging with the Tao? disappearing into the Tao? if the Tao is the process of change, then there is nothing to merge with and there is no separate self from the Tao that is merging at all.

Careful now, let's not get fixed on the term "process" even though it is a better descriptive than "thing", remember that Tao means "Way".

 

You have heard of term, "Go with the flow" right? Well that is distinctly a Taoist principle. But what exactly does it mean?

 

Like I mentioned above, the ancient sages made an exhaustive study of the nature of change and they observed a distinct cyclic nature to the process of cause and effect. The documentation of cyclic pattern is formalized in the Yijing / I Ching. From a Taoist point of view this universal rhythm on the level of "beingness" is seen to be the outer extremities or "branches" of Tao.

 

So, on a superficial level, one can be said to be "one with Tao" when one is in tune with the cyclic, rhythmic, pattern of Universal change. In Taoist teachings of virtue, being one with Universal change is called "appropriateness".

 

Within Taoist ontology the symptoms of being out of sync with Universal change are calamities, misfortunes, diseases, strife, and contentions amongst people. The fundamental cause for such disharmonies is the discursive mind full of its conditionings, attachments, desires, and fixations. It is the 'artificial' mind that, through its own self-importance, has blinded itself to the subtle rhythms of Universal life and acts contrary to the appropriate requirements of the given moment.

 

So, on the level of beingness, a natural mind free from conditionings is said to be "one with Tao" because it will be perceptive, sensitive, and responsive to the "flow" of Universal change.

 

However, Taoists also recognized that to live only on the surface of incessant change is to be always tossed this way and that like a leaf in the wind. Though we don't necessarily find that "unsatisfactory" we do recognize the simple fact that being only attached to the surface of life tends to sap one's energy and leads to premature illness and death. Perhaps you Buddhists call this the level of Samsara yes?

 

Again through deep observation of Universal nature, Taoist began seeing that the cycles of change composed of identifiable "elements" or distinct "phases". So, as I mentioned above, the formation of the Wuxing (five elements) and the Yiching (book of changes) came about to assist in understanding these fundamental "building blocks". In a way Taoists over the aeons have deconstructed the Universe going from the coarse level of cause and effect and working their way inwards in an attempt to "know" as much of essence of the Universe as possible. This was not a conceptual process however but rather one of deep observation and meditation.

 

 

as Vajra pointed out, the Tao Te Ching does posit that the Tao is the mother of all, now as you say the Tao is just the process... but saying that the Tao is the source of all phenomena, then it cannot be said that the Tao is the source because the Tao is just the process. how can a process be a source? so far that sounds very much in line with Buddhism, but as soon as you start saying that the source and the manifestation are one, you are then positing the existence of a substratum that encompasses everything. you are then getting into a Monist position which Buddhists argue is idealistic and ungrounded in truth. maybe that's not what you are saying though.

It would be an error to think that Taoists are saying Tao exists contextually to a point in time. To place a time descriptive on Tao immediately places it on the superficial level of "beingness" and thus is not the enternal Tao. Personally I am quite content with the idea of infinite regress of cause and effect. When the Daodejing says, "Before Heaven and Earth was existed there was Tao" the mistake, again, would be to assume it was saying, "Before the beginning of time."

 

Let me explain...

 

Like I said earlier, Taoists observed that because Universal change did in fact cycle in elliptical patterns then basic physics informed them that there simply must be a point of "gravitational pull" around which Universal change "orbited" (please excuse my terminologies here they are only meant for modeling and demonstration). Have a look at the previous diagram I have posted. See it though not as a two-dimensional image but a three-dimensional spiral (and in truth it is multi-dimensional) extending infinitely away from you as well as infinitely toward you and beyond you.

 

What Taoists observed is that as the outer elements became more and more subtle, as they "traveled" closer and closer to the "core" of the Universal spiral, then distinctions became less and less until arriving at the core itself life merged into "Nothingness" (i.e. the empty circle at the center).

 

So we see that the ancient Taoists observed that the Universe was in fact a "spectrum" of manifestation ranging from the course level of Beingness all the way through to the ineffable and mysterious "core" of Nothingness.

 

The vital thing to see here is that this inconceivable subtle "axis" is at all times "now". The process of "Nothingness" manifesting into "Beingness" is in truth happening right now. Taoists, well at least this one, do not necessarily believe that at some point in the primordial past life "began". Not at all, because that "process" is ever now.

 

To take this all one step further, Taoist also believe that, through the process of refining the personal elements of one's own Beingness (i.e. the internal five elements etc.) the practitioner can sublimate their consciousness and entire being into more subtle levels and thus "transcend" the outer or coarse level of Universal life and evolve ever-closer "toward" the subtle essence of the Universe.

 

Thus we can "be one with Tao" on the practical level of appropriate response to the changing nature of Beingness but we can ultimately "be one with Tao" by sublimating our being into the "Nothingness" of the subtle Universal essence.