Jealousy

[Pietro]

:-0

 

oh my! you've got an exciting opportunity!

 

Look - like many people into spirituality you're full of anger. I bet you've never even noticed it... I bet you pride yourself on your ability to avoid anger and confrontation. And you do, and you have done all your life, and I bet your job, your choice in partner, your interest in spirituality is all centred around anger and the avoidance of it. (I hope reading this you're getting a little angry!) I can actually physically sense it when I feel you.

 

Hey! Whose anger are You feeling!

[King Kabalabhati]

Hahaha, I'm not really from India, I'm from Finlandia

 

You're right I shouldn't divorce her for doing what I gave permission for. But it was her demand to loosen up the knot in the first place and she is the one who can't stand family life but wants me to care for the children during the week while she studies, practicly coming home only on the weekends. So there would be more than one good reason for me to tell her to pack her stuff and go... But no, at least not yet. I'm too interested to see what will develop from a more "freely breathing" relationship based on frienship and not a "husband and wifey"-thing. There may be occasional sex or there may not be, there may be other lovers or there may not be. It's exciting in a way, to just let things happen and not to forge any more rules or restrictions. When something starts to really bother it's time to re-evaluate the whole thing but for the sake of the children I want to keep us together if possible, and I think its possible for now. I realise myself that I need the freedom from those possessive emotions that kind of keep me hanging from her like there were strings in between us. She already seems liberated in that sense, she used to be quite possessive towards me in the past.

 

From what I've talked with her lately, it's quite clear that children and friendship will be the common nominators in our future relationship. That's a lot of love already, and neither of us is going to have much time for external relationships. I for my part don't want any more confused individuals to stir the soup. Unless it's the Divine will that I meet my new loving queen some day.

 

 

What an interesting subject.

 

It is said that person will give you a good suggestion when he can't anymore show a bad example:

many years ago I left my girlfriend because she has had a summer relationship. This after I told her that we were in an open relationship, and that she was free to go with others. Interestingly she would answer "yes, yes, you say so, but the moment I would really go with another you would leave me on the spot". She was right although for years after that I regretted what I did.

 

So let me share some of the wisdom I have gathered in those years from when I so foolishly acted.

 

I read that you are considering divorce. I don't think this is fair or acceptable. A man that is a man is bound by his own word. Did I gather right that you are from India? Gandhi use to say (among many others) that happiness happens when what you think, what you do and what you say are one thing. You have agreed to let her investigate this other relationship, and you would somehow break your own word if, after telling her she could do something, you would divorce her because of that. This does not mean that you have to stay in a relationship you are unhappy with. You can change the rules at any time. Provided you take the time to discuss it with her. But you cannot divorce her for something she did following your advice.

 

Please note that she might have slightly manipulated you by suggesting that you could go with others (it is natural for generous people to answer, you too). Even if this were true (and I cannot know it, only her innside her heart), you still need to be responsible for your own words.

 

I think you are already going in the right direction respect to getting over the jealousy. When I was in that bad situation, after a lot of pain and suffering I felt that I could get over it. I just could accept what has happened, and stay with her. I was at the time 26, and I use to go to an analyst. She was an old woman, very wise. It was her who suggested me to leave her. Because, she said, "maybe you are too young for that kind of relationship, better would be for you to experience other women, and other relationships before settling down". Sometimes even wise old women are wrong ;-).

 

So I think you need to dissolve your jelousy. At least about what has happened (or is about to happen) this time.

Or fuse it. Or just stay in reality. Or something.

 

Speaking about open relationships, I have read a lot about them, and I also often tried to have open relationships. I never succeeded, but I now know many ways that don't work.

 

One of the things that I understand is really important is to have really clear rules. For example some people are allowed to sleep with others, but not to have kids with them. Other are allowed to sleep but not to make love. Or to have a 1 night stand, but not to sleep with the same person more than one time (which would produce attachment and a relationship that can dis-stabilize the first relationship. Others are allowed to have other lovers but not 1 night stands. Others can make love... provided the first partner is invited to join. Or the first partner is invited to watch (this is great -meditation wise-, there is nothing better to face your jealousy than seeing a woman you desire have sex with another man). Other require that the partner pass one night home always immediately after the the night they had with someone else; to reconnect with the family. Others need to know who the person is.

 

It is interesting that some couples have a philosophy of "don't ask, don't tell". And people who live in an open relationship for many years tend to agree that this is not an acceptable base.

 

So I would say:

You can't divorce her for what she will do this time.

You need to face and dissolve your jealousy,

if you feel this is to hard you can still change the rules from now on,

be open to what the rules can be. Find something that fits both of you.

[King Kabalabhati]

Hahaha, I'm not really from India, I'm from Finlandia

 

You're right I shouldn't divorce her for doing what I gave permission for. But it was her demand to loosen up the knot in the first place and she is the one who can't stand family life but wants me to care for the children during the week while she studies, practicly coming home only on the weekends. So there would be more than one good reason for me to tell her to pack her stuff and go... But no, at least not yet. I'm too interested to see what will develop from a more "freely breathing" relationship based on frienship and not a "husband and wifey"-thing. There may be occasional sex or there may not be, there may be other lovers or there may not be. It's exciting in a way, to just let things happen and not to forge any more rules or restrictions. When something starts to really bother it's time to re-evaluate the whole thing but for the sake of the children I want to keep us together if possible, and I think its possible for now. I realise myself that I need the freedom from those possessive emotions that kind of keep me hanging from her like there were strings in between us. She already seems liberated in that sense, she used to be quite possessive towards me in the past.

 

From what I've talked with her lately, it's quite clear that children and friendship will be the common nominators in our future relationship. That's a lot of love already, and neither of us is going to have much time for external relationships. I for my part don't want any more confused individuals to stir the soup. Unless it's the Divine will that I meet my new loving queen some day.

 

 

What an interesting subject.

 

It is said that person will give you a good suggestion when he can't anymore show a bad example:

many years ago I left my girlfriend because she has had a summer relationship. This after I told her that we were in an open relationship, and that she was free to go with others. Interestingly she would answer "yes, yes, you say so, but the moment I would really go with another you would leave me on the spot". She was right although for years after that I regretted what I did.

 

So let me share some of the wisdom I have gathered in those years from when I so foolishly acted.

 

I read that you are considering divorce. I don't think this is fair or acceptable. A man that is a man is bound by his own word. Did I gather right that you are from India? Gandhi use to say (among many others) that happiness happens when what you think, what you do and what you say are one thing. You have agreed to let her investigate this other relationship, and you would somehow break your own word if, after telling her she could do something, you would divorce her because of that. This does not mean that you have to stay in a relationship you are unhappy with. You can change the rules at any time. Provided you take the time to discuss it with her. But you cannot divorce her for something she did following your advice.

 

Please note that she might have slightly manipulated you by suggesting that you could go with others (it is natural for generous people to answer, you too). Even if this were true (and I cannot know it, only her innside her heart), you still need to be responsible for your own words.

 

I think you are already going in the right direction respect to getting over the jealousy. When I was in that bad situation, after a lot of pain and suffering I felt that I could get over it. I just could accept what has happened, and stay with her. I was at the time 26, and I use to go to an analyst. She was an old woman, very wise. It was her who suggested me to leave her. Because, she said, "maybe you are too young for that kind of relationship, better would be for you to experience other women, and other relationships before settling down". Sometimes even wise old women are wrong ;-).

 

So I think you need to dissolve your jelousy. At least about what has happened (or is about to happen) this time.

Or fuse it. Or just stay in reality. Or something.

 

Speaking about open relationships, I have read a lot about them, and I also often tried to have open relationships. I never succeeded, but I now know many ways that don't work.

 

One of the things that I understand is really important is to have really clear rules. For example some people are allowed to sleep with others, but not to have kids with them. Other are allowed to sleep but not to make love. Or to have a 1 night stand, but not to sleep with the same person more than one time (which would produce attachment and a relationship that can dis-stabilize the first relationship. Others are allowed to have other lovers but not 1 night stands. Others can make love... provided the first partner is invited to join. Or the first partner is invited to watch (this is great -meditation wise-, there is nothing better to face your jealousy than seeing a woman you desire have sex with another man). Other require that the partner pass one night home always immediately after the the night they had with someone else; to reconnect with the family. Others need to know who the person is.

 

It is interesting that some couples have a philosophy of "don't ask, don't tell". And people who live in an open relationship for many years tend to agree that this is not an acceptable base.

 

So I would say:

You can't divorce her for what she will do this time.

You need to face and dissolve your jealousy,

if you feel this is to hard you can still change the rules from now on,

be open to what the rules can be. Find something that fits both of you.

[Taoist81]

Google "compersion". Poly-folks us the term to describe a feeling of joy from observing a partner in a new relationship. Look up polyamory and you can find lots of tips from experienced people on this topic.

[King Kabalabhati]

YES!! That's the ticket!

 

Why not transform all the possessiveness and jealousy into sheer joy for the pleasure of your loved one? Man, I shouldnt need to suffer that much at all. I did tell her one night I would actually be happy if she could once in her life have a truely opening and deepening sexual experience.. That was, like this one, in a very blissful mindstate and I was honestly feeling the joy of "compersion", or something related to it After that I've seemed to live through periods of possessiveness and occasional feeling of compersion, but now I know what is good to cultivate

 

Forward with love!

Edited September 21, 2009 by King Kabalabhati

[King Kabalabhati]

WAIT A MINUTE.. I SHOULD try to find myself a perfect sexual partner.. To give compersion to my wife too!

[Pietro]

WAIT A MINUTE.. I SHOULD try to find myself a perfect sexual partner.. To give compersion to my wife too!

Actually people in open relationships, who find a new partner tend to fel their whole life more energised, and more sexual, and among this also the first partner. The funny thing is that when I am attarcted by a new partner, the old one becomes more attractive also. Unfortunately her jealousy corners me into having to make a decision (unless I am willing to lie). But if you have transformed your jealousy you might as well discover that when she comes back home she might be more sexual even with you.

[King Kabalabhati]

Freeform, you WERE RIGHT.. It's bubbling up. I'm howling like a beaten dog here, and growling like a wounded bear, shaking all over.. Trying my best to relax and express my self. This is a new experience, I'm riding with it. Thanks for pointing at it.

[freeform]

Hey! Whose anger are You feeling!

 

yours!

 

I know - I had to channel some of my own... and inject it into this thread... It's amazing - with certain people I can immediately feel what's stuck - particularly if it's similar to what I had. You're not like us, Pietro - you don't suppress your anger. It's out there for us to feel and taste.

 

I, at a certain point, decided that 'content' is of minor importance, but the context - the energy, how it all unfolds has the true in-the-moment potential... so when I read a post, I let myself become the writer of it... and sometimes it's very familiar (like with KK, Mal, SB, Sunshine etc) and sometimes not so familiar, but still somewhat explorable.

 

In KK's posts I can feel the sadness quite clearly... the anger is masked, completely... have you ever tried on those noise-cancelling headphones?... they play like the opposite wave-form of the background noise a microphone picks up... it's kinda eerie - you can tell there is sound because your skin and bones can feel it, but the sound doesn't get in your ears... the same with the anger.

 

And the thing about exploding with rage. That's exactly the 'content' indicator that for me confirms what I get from the context. Anger is only expressed when it boils over and erupts uncontrollably - outwardly you just can't be a little bit angry - it's all or nothing.

 

Of course take it all with a pinch of salt, but explore it for yourself.

 

 

Freeform, you WERE RIGHT.. It's bubbling up. I'm howling like a beaten dog here, and growling like a wounded bear, shaking all over.. Trying my best to relax and express my self. This is a new experience, I'm riding with it. Thanks for pointing at it.

 

I only just read this (after writing the bit above) - congratulations!! You've found a new piece of you that was missing! it will take time, but you'll become more and more 3-dimensional! as difficult as it might seem - enjoy it!

[longrhythm]

I definately feel a need to chime in here, so I will. Take it for what it's worth, cause it's how I feel and that may or may not apply to you at all.

 

"She already seems liberated in that sense, she used to be quite possessive towards me in the past."

 

From what you said she's the one who wants somebody else. You don't seem too interested in that. Of course she's liberated in that sense. There's no real threat of you cashing in on the "openness" of your relationship.

 

"WAIT A MINUTE.. I SHOULD try to find myself a perfect sexual partner.. To give compersion to my wife too! "

 

This is the closest thing I've heard you say in this thread to something that I can relate to KK. If you're going to let her sleep around, you HAVE to keep it even. For your own sanity and for her own attraction. Put yourself in her shoes. If you were with a girl that said you could sleep with someone else, knowing you had someone else in mind, and you knew she had no motives to do the same herself, how would you feel?

 

I'm all for spiritual development, cultivating internal discipline, and being capable to handle internal state independent of external circumstances WHICH CANNOT BE CONTROLLED. But remember that part of being spiritual means dissolving our boundaries from our surroundings, and that our external circumstances in a sense ARE our internal states. If development is about balance, it can't just be about controlling internal state all the time, sometimes it's about changing external circumstances, too.

 

I really admire your intentions for your childrens sake. I am a product of a hateful divorce and it's taken alot of healing to get me to even see the implications it's had on my life. You are a very loving father.

 

I will say for your sake- spiritual advancement doesn't have to mean you're at peace while you're taking a beating (like meditating while being eaten by a bear- perfect- LOL)- it can mean that you have the clarity under stress to make all the right moves at all the right times to win the fight with minimum exertion and come out on top. Compassion is wonderful, and I believe it is most genuine when given from a place of strength.

 

Ascend and as you ascend so should your standards for the way other people treat you.

 

I admire your intentions and wish you all the best. My heart goes out to you.

[longrhythm]

BTW Freeform- AWESOME.

 

"And there's a surprising gift within anger - within the energy behind anger there is a kind of 'motivational' feeling - like a motivation based on the generosity of your spirit... another thing is that when you hide your anger, to others it feels like there is a part of you missing - they can't put their finger on it, but there is something missing... if you're able to be centred in a way that presents both your dark and your light side, you will notice a whole new level of attraction from others, including your wife."

 

This is something that I used to know intuitively, and only recently happened to rediscover by chance. After experiencing it I was able to see it as a pattern across all my role models. A man without his flow of anger is castrated- and a time bomb. It's like they say "It's ALWAYS the quiet ones." Being able to live comfortably with your anger in each moment is incredibly empowering. And on that note, a thought about the possibility of pursuing the ability to live with every negative emotion in each moment. I have some things to consider... to the personal practice journal!

 

Thanks dude.

 

 

:-0

 

oh my! you've got an exciting opportunity!

 

Look - like many people into spirituality you're full of anger. I bet you've never even noticed it... I bet you pride yourself on your ability to avoid anger and confrontation. And you do, and you have done all your life, and I bet your job, your choice in partner, your interest in spirituality is all centred around anger and the avoidance of it. (I hope reading this you're getting a little angry!) I can actually physically sense it when I feel you. It's easy for me to feel because I have the same pattern - if the anger comes out, I will destroy everything I love... so I stuff it down, cover over it, sprinkle sugar on top and no one need know - including myself.

 

So now you have yourself an opportunity.

 

You have a chance to really get into that anger! It will be difficult - there's a lifetime of patterns that have been designed to keep you away from it. But you have external circumstances helping you out now. Get that liver churning, releasing all the stuck, blocked, compressed anger. I'm not sure what your practices are like, but do a lot of liver work - not to get rid of the anger, but to connect to it. Have anger fill you up completely then allow your body to move in a way that expresses it - particularly with your voice.. it's good to do shaking movements, which loosens everything up.

 

It's not even a case of bringing anger up - there's a backlog of it there already, just under the sugar-coating - all you need to do is turn your awareness there and allow it to bubble up - then just sit with it, stand with it, breathe with it, shake and roar with it - the light of your awareness on it will begin to transform it, but it will only transform by keeping your awareness on it, and not by trying to transform it.

 

There's no 'dealing' with anger or jealousy (by the way - it's not jealousy, it's anger with stories) - you let it run its course.

 

And there's a surprising gift within anger - within the energy behind anger there is a kind of 'motivational' feeling - like a motivation based on the generosity of your spirit... another thing is that when you hide your anger, to others it feels like there is a part of you missing - they can't put their finger on it, but there is something missing... if you're able to be centred in a way that presents both your dark and your light side, you will notice a whole new level of attraction from others, including your wife.

 

And I must warn you, that once you open up anger, you may find sadness hidden deeper down beneath it - and you'll go through it in the same way.

 

Before bed deeply go into your 6 healing sounds - releasing all the heat generated. Stay grounded, go for walks, sit outside and be gentle with yourself as you allow this to play through.

 

This is a great gift.

[Birch]

I'm wondering why she would say you could go ahead and sleep with others. It doesn't sound very much like a woman...unless it's to give herself permission to do it.

 

Besides, it's nice to go away and have some real fun and passion knowing that you have someone safe to come back to afterwards. No consequences. None.

 

I don't play with the multiple partner people so maybe I'm out of touch though. Either way, how much does it matter what you read on an online forum? You feel the way you feel. Work with that.

[King Kabalabhati]

I don't think I HAVE to sleep around for the sake of balance. I should only if I genuinely feel like I want to, and assuming that I run into a woman I'm really interested in AND she's in the situation where she can safely co-operate.. Without jealous spouses or the like. I'm probably one of the pickier types so my hopes for that aren't raised very high. Life can give surprises sometimes, I know.

 

I still keep that freedom in my mind. The whole of this starts to make so much sense now. It's like there's been a hate-fueled attachment/addiction going on for years without me really noticing or wanting to notice it. But my wife, as a woman, has noticed and she had to act on it. Part of it could be due to her always being very sensitive to how I express myself, angerwise.. I've been tiptoeing my way around these emotions for the sake of "harmony", which didn't really exist. So had I been honest from beginning, we might be in a very different situation.. But that's not essential right now, I just got to let it flow and let it heal, cause it what it will.

 

Illusions seem to be everywhere.. Pop goes the bubble

[King Kabalabhati]

And guess what.. the exercise I was doing yesterday when I heated up and felt really strong emotional surge.. Yep, it was a stretch that opened the liver meridian.

[King Kabalabhati]

The lady has also some pretty severe relationship with her parents, probably some spicy emotions stacked up in her liver too since childhood. There's also depression in her (our) history, some of it quite serious. She's always been prone to a sudden explosion in emotionally difficult situations. It's all starting to spread before my very eyes.. Nevermind jealousy, this is the real shit we dealing wit here.

[Daeluin]

I view jealousy as what comes when something we have attachments to or expectations for is threatened. A pattern we've come to rely upon might be removed and we have little say, that's scary to us.

 

Being glad for whatever she may experience sharing her affection with someone else is surely an improvement over the fear you felt.

 

I haven't read every post, but I wonder if her desire to open the relationship came from answering her own need to find balance in her self. She is/was/will be off experiencing that freedom and seeking wholeness as the person she is, rather than seeking balance in her life with you.

 

In your times apart you may feel the urge to be very aware of her - I would advise to simply be happy for her and allow the thought to pass. Now is also time for you to seek your own balance too, and finding a way to replenish whatever it is you may not get while the two of you are together.

 

edit - as an addon to that, picture two trees growing next to each other, so that their branches and roots share some of the same space. if they were to only grow towards each other they would be fighting over the same air and water. but by coexisting both together and alone, they help each other by drawing from outside as well as sharing within.

 

alone there is a whole, combined as two wholes there can be an ecosystem, but two halves trying to make one whole requires damned good balance.

Edited September 22, 2009 by Daeluin

[King Kabalabhati]

Man am I feeling better today.

 

The liver is a bit hot still, though. I'm doing the liver sound, inner smile and some opening of the meridians. Let's see if this is sufficient for now. If I start feeling anger again, I'll just dig deeper into it like last night. This is really my chance to get well. God bless you all and GOD BLESS THE KING

 

love,

 

King K

[Ninpo-me-this-ninjutsu-me-that]

Hmmmm,

 

This one has a few too many layers to be simple. Jealousy..... you had/have a mother, when you were a baby you could not and did not differentiate her and yourself, she was key to your survival, any fear of not having her attention and therefore staying alive, makes the basic survival instinct kick. it's our first experience of jealousy, especially if you had older brothers or sisters. This when you become an adult is transposed/projected onto the woman. It is admirable that you are trying to work on this, what you are really working with and doing generally is called 'inner child' work, the inner child is thought to remain inside with all its feeling base even though our social learned self is layered over it. But when 'it' considers its position is being threatened it kicks off its feelings regardless of logic. He/she has no logic, it/you did not develop past that stage. It is connected to the shadow, and all the so called negative feeling we have that we repress due to social conditioning, however, there comes a time when it will not be ignored......and then the sh*t really hits the fan. I disagree with the previous poster who said your wife is not your possession, in actual fact as far as I can make out you are trying your best to go against that feeling as can be seen by what you are trying to do.... I do agree no one should consider a wife/husband a possession but the inner child just doesn't give a toss, to him your mother was one of the same as you, your consciousness had not developed beyond that, so your logic says 'not my possession but your emotion says 'screw that, definately mine!' The battle you are trying to win will take you deeper and deeper down to the shadow, not necessarily a bad thing....but......

 

I gotta say man, this is all wrong, yes you have kids, but I would like to remind you that marriage is a human creation. And yes you care about her, that much is apparent, but your love is that of a brother or close friend. The pair of you are selling yourselves short....and yes I know you have kids.... but so what, so you have to stay like this for the next ...what...15 years...... . I will not congratulate you for that, I'm sorry but it's cowardice on some level, you are misguided by societies mores I think....Daoism has no mores. What psychological damage do you think will occur when one day your kids find out this situation....and they WILL find out, your an adult, you can take it, what about them. Divorce is not so bad, actually every person I have known from a so called 'broken' home has been very wise emotionally, there are no right answers, every decision is right and wrong at the same time, it simply depends on perspective.

 

I salute your desire to work with your jealousy....BUT.... were not talking about you being possessive and not letting your wife out the house are we? We talking about the fact that your in a marriage where both people are actually close friends, and thats nice.... it is. But, let me tell you from personal experience when one plays away, one day, maybe not today, but sometime, someones gonna fall in love and want out! And once that passion kicks in all hell will break loose, and it seems your the one who's gonna pick up the pieces.....don't tell me she just wants sexual experience, that's YOUR thinking not hers, she wants what almost every woman desires at some point in their life before their dreams may have been dashed......deep burning love and passion, all encompassing..... you can't fight that dude... you just can't, people kill for that. You are also negating your own desire for this, I cannot believe you don't also have this urge, it is a normal human urge, I think you have just better ability at repressing it for the sake of practicality and following societies expectation than your wife, that's also understandable as most women are much more in touch and honest about their feelings than men.

 

I think you need to go way back man, and take a look at why you chose this woman, instead of a person you felt deep passion for and her the same, it's connected to your upbringing somehow. It seems you both chose security over real feeling, and you are still choosing this, she however it seems knows she needs more. Dude, trust me, from one who knows..... this is gonna go pear shaped. Creating rules and so on may work for a time, but honestly, if I were married to you(I know that's a horrific thought cos I'm male)I'd leave you for a person I felt deep passion and love for...... and let me tell you something straight..... if that guy can rock her world in the bedroom department you can be sure her emotions will kick in at some point, especially if she didn't have much experience before you. Some females here may be inclined to disagree and say 'no no, it's this or that, not that', but let me tell you as a man who has excellent bedroom department references ie. 'that was amazing', 'the best I ever had' and the best one of all 'ooooohhhhhhhhhhhh', followed by an amazed look in the eyes and abdominal contractions that last for 3 minutes........ after that they fall hook line and sinker, I don't presume to know why, I only know it's a hundred percent the case. I'm not telling you this to be an assh*le, I'm telling you this cos you seem to really wanna keep the relationship together and are really working hard on it, but your work is misplaced my friend and will ultimately come to a sad ending. I have been on both sides, I know what I'm talking about.

 

This is a long reply, and I apologize for that. You seem both like you are close and good friends, but if it goes on like this it may end very badly, and then people will get hurt anyway. In daoism people learn to let go....... that includes outstayed relationships my friend. Your passion is elsewhere, and so is hers. It's natural. You need to stop repressing yourself. We all fear change, yet still water stagnates, life is not meant to be that way, it's not your fault or hers, we didn't decide marriage was right and proper, someone else did hundreds of years ago and we are still paying for it with our conditioned beliefs, the tao knows not structure. People may disagree with me, but I'm from a divorced family and I highly recommend it, much better than seeing both parents miserable and arguing with each other. I wanna see people happy, that includes my parents. I just don't buy the whole 'stay together for the kids' line, in my experience it simply covered a fear of change and ultimately cowardice, and that's ok, we are all cowards in some way...bu we're not meant to stay that way. Good luck.

[longrhythm]

Best answer yet.

 

Hmmmm,

 

This one has a few too many layers to be simple. Jealousy..... you had/have a mother, when you were a baby you could not and did not differentiate her and yourself, she was key to your survival, any fear of not having her attention and therefore staying alive, makes the basic survival instinct kick. it's our first experience of jealousy, especially if you had older brothers or sisters. This when you become an adult is transposed/projected onto the woman. It is admirable that you are trying to work on this, what you are really working with and doing generally is called 'inner child' work, the inner child is thought to remain inside with all its feeling base even though our social learned self is layered over it. But when 'it' considers its position is being threatened it kicks off its feelings regardless of logic. He/she has no logic, it/you did not develop past that stage. It is connected to the shadow, and all the so called negative feeling we have that we repress due to social conditioning, however, there comes a time when it will not be ignored......and then the sh*t really hits the fan. I disagree with the previous poster who said your wife is not your possession, in actual fact as far as I can make out you are trying your best to go against that feeling as can be seen by what you are trying to do.... I do agree no one should consider a wife/husband a possession but the inner child just doesn't give a toss, to him your mother was one of the same as you, your consciousness had not developed beyond that, so your logic says 'not my possession but your emotion says 'screw that, definately mine!' The battle you are trying to win will take you deeper and deeper down to the shadow, not necessarily a bad thing....but......

 

I gotta say man, this is all wrong, yes you have kids, but I would like to remind you that marriage is a human creation. And yes you care about her, that much is apparent, but your love is that of a brother or close friend. The pair of you are selling yourselves short....and yes I know you have kids.... but so what, so you have to stay like this for the next ...what...15 years...... . I will not congratulate you for that, I'm sorry but it's cowardice on some level, you are misguided by societies mores I think....Daoism has no mores. What psychological damage do you think will occur when one day your kids find out this situation....and they WILL find out, your an adult, you can take it, what about them. Divorce is not so bad, actually every person I have known from a so called 'broken' home has been very wise emotionally, there are no right answers, every decision is right and wrong at the same time, it simply depends on perspective.

 

I salute your desire to work with your jealousy....BUT.... were not talking about you being possessive and not letting your wife out the house are we? We talking about the fact that your in a marriage where both people are actually close friends, and thats nice.... it is. But, let me tell you from personal experience when one plays away, one day, maybe not today, but sometime, someones gonna fall in love and want out! And once that passion kicks in all hell will break loose, and it seems your the one who's gonna pick up the pieces.....don't tell me she just wants sexual experience, that's YOUR thinking not hers, she wants what almost every woman desires at some point in their life before their dreams may have been dashed......deep burning love and passion, all encompassing..... you can't fight that dude... you just can't, people kill for that. You are also negating your own desire for this, I cannot believe you don't also have this urge, it is a normal human urge, I think you have just better ability at repressing it for the sake of practicality and following societies expectation than your wife, that's also understandable as most women are much more in touch and honest about their feelings than men.

 

I think you need to go way back man, and take a look at why you chose this woman, instead of a person you felt deep passion for and her the same, it's connected to your upbringing somehow. It seems you both chose security over real feeling, and you are still choosing this, she however it seems knows she needs more. Dude, trust me, from one who knows..... this is gonna go pear shaped. Creating rules and so on may work for a time, but honestly, if I were married to you(I know that's a horrific thought cos I'm male)I'd leave you for a person I felt deep passion and love for...... and let me tell you something straight..... if that guy can rock her world in the bedroom department you can be sure her emotions will kick in at some point, especially if she didn't have much experience before you. Some females here may be inclined to disagree and say 'no no, it's this or that, not that', but let me tell you as a man who has excellent bedroom department references ie. 'that was amazing', 'the best I ever had' and the best one of all 'ooooohhhhhhhhhhhh', followed by an amazed look in the eyes and abdominal contractions that last for 3 minutes........ after that they fall hook line and sinker, I don't presume to know why, I only know it's a hundred percent the case. I'm not telling you this to be an assh*le, I'm telling you this cos you seem to really wanna keep the relationship together and are really working hard on it, but your work is misplaced my friend and will ultimately come to a sad ending. I have been on both sides, I know what I'm talking about.

 

This is a long reply, and I apologize for that. You seem both like you are close and good friends, but if it goes on like this it may end very badly, and then people will get hurt anyway. In daoism people learn to let go....... that includes outstayed relationships my friend. Your passion is elsewhere, and so is hers. It's natural. You need to stop repressing yourself. We all fear change, yet still water stagnates, life is not meant to be that way, it's not your fault or hers, we didn't decide marriage was right and proper, someone else did hundreds of years ago and we are still paying for it with our conditioned beliefs, the tao knows not structure. People may disagree with me, but I'm from a divorced family and I highly recommend it, much better than seeing both parents miserable and arguing with each other. I wanna see people happy, that includes my parents. I just don't buy the whole 'stay together for the kids' line, in my experience it simply covered a fear of change and ultimately cowardice, and that's ok, we are all cowards in some way...bu we're not meant to stay that way. Good luck.

[freeform]

I've been tiptoeing my way around these emotions for the sake of "harmony", which didn't really exist.

 

I know how vulnerable it feels to reveal that. You're helping many others by going through what you're going through and allowing others to connect in a way that teaches valuable insights.

 

The bubble may have burst. But 'it would've been better if I' type thinking - it's useless. Get into the moment - another thing we tend to do is go comatose - flatline - no one there - you know what I'm talking about? it looks a lot like depression... the antidote - is anger seriously - not anger itself but opening your awareness to it being there... because it brings you into your body, into your animalistic power (which is what disappears in that comatose state). The friendly generosity/anger energy is the warm, expanding, growing, exciting part of your animalistic power - it's also very attractive - like spring is.

 

If you were able to look right at a woman, let that anger vibrate away inside, with full awareness and then say "I f**king love you" - you'd see the reaction. Now do that - but say it to yourself

[King Kabalabhati]

That one was an interesting post, ninjitsu man.

 

I don't agree that the children will suffer from realizing their parents weren't passionate lovers after all.. Since we're not going to play it like that. They will naturally grow along with the situation, whatever the way it's gonna go. The crisis is ON and it's too late to avoid that. Rather we can dig into ourselves; can we live together the weekends and play house, doing our chores, renovating the house, singing music, talking about spiritual things and yoga? Can we continue with those things that have been our strongest link all the while? I believe from my heart it's possible. And being honest when the children ask questions about anything is very important to me. We won't have to stay like this for the next 15 years, that's a strange way to see it. That's the liberation here, we won't HAVE TO stay any way we don't wish. One of the reasons my wife wants this freedom is because she feels anxiety over thinking like that. That you're somehow locked for years and years to come. I admit I'm beginning to feel the same myself.

 

I know it can make a woman fall in love deeply if she gets the good stuff in bed (or on the couch or the carpet or wherever). But if that happens it's going to be very hard for her, since this potential "lover" is quite far away and she'll only be able to visit him a couple times a year. Now you don't know her but she's quite conscious of things and when she says she's only looking for friendship she probably means just that. She's got a five years study plan and knowing her determinition she's not going to let a romance distract her. But I don't worry over it, if she really falls for him of course she'll be going to live with him for good at one point or another, and that will be the natural end of our "open relationship".

 

My own urge is under control nowadays, have you ever heard of Taoist techniques ? THEY FUCKING WORK! It doesn't mean I wouldn't take good sex/burning romance if I could get it, but it would have "click" in a certain way. Higher vibrations, you see.

 

She does them exercices also and has no URGE but she wants the freedom to love. And now I want to give her every nice thing I can, including freedom.

 

I think the way you make it sound is that there's absolutely no liberation from the lower feelings of possessing. I disagree. But I do know it may take constant working on it, but it's like any workout.. daily repetition.

Edited September 22, 2009 by King Kabalabhati

[King Kabalabhati]

Yes! I'm feeling VERY ALIVE when compared to a few days ago when I was simply trying to "keep myself together" and the result was comatose.

 

Freeform, I could kiss you for showing me my anger. I've been needing this, it's a new current of life flowing.. Despite the uproar of emotions and energies (or because of it) I'm just much more inspired now.

 

And the liver feels only a bit heated at the moment, I was doing the Shhhhh sound and at times it even felt cool.

 

 

 

 

I know how vulnerable it feels to reveal that. You're helping many others by going through what you're going through and allowing others to connect in a way that teaches valuable insights.

 

The bubble may have burst. But 'it would've been better if I' type thinking - it's useless. Get into the moment - another thing we tend to do is go comatose - flatline - no one there - you know what I'm talking about? it looks a lot like depression... the antidote - is anger seriously - not anger itself but opening your awareness to it being there... because it brings you into your body, into your animalistic power (which is what disappears in that comatose state). The friendly generosity/anger energy is the warm, expanding, growing, exciting part of your animalistic power - it's also very attractive - like spring is.

 

If you were able to look right at a woman, let that anger vibrate away inside, with full awareness and then say "I f**king love you" - you'd see the reaction. Now do that - but say it to yourself

Edited September 22, 2009 by King Kabalabhati

[King Kabalabhati]

Transmuting all this anger feels almost like a Kundalini awakening (as I've heard it described), only the power doesn't come from the sacrum , it bubbles from the liver. This is my first taste of true emotional alchemy.

[Ninpo-me-this-ninjutsu-me-that]

I was not suggesting there is no possible way of dealing with feelings of possessiveness, I was just questioning if in this situation that was really the answer. And yes, I do know Daoist techniques work.

 

As for your children it's not really that simple, no matter what you say or communicate to a kid, no kid wants to be thinking of his/her mother doing the mattress mambo with anyone except his/her father. It creates split loyalties that a kid finds really hard to deal with, and if/when the marriage breaks up all the subsequent difficulties will be blamed on someone. You see, no matter which choice you make at this point it will likely to have some negative effect, actually from a wider perspective all decisions are right and wrong at the same time. That simply means you can only do what your gonna do, and it seems you have already made up your mind and know what you want to do.

 

So I truly wish you all the best with that. Good luck

[King Kabalabhati]

You're right about that, there's no right or wrong answer here when it comes to the children. Only that they should have a chance to see their mother and that if their mom can be here working on our home & other projects with me then it's (probably) more practical than splitting up.

 

I'm actually making the decision with intention to become more open to life's different possibilities and to live in the "flow" instead of using fixed social patterns of behaviour, like "saving our marriage" vs. "divorce". There's got to be a middle path, a yogic path, and that's what I feel I've already taken. This has been a consciousness-expanding experience already.. I now seem to think she's really done me a favor because without a crisis like this there would possibly have been no real movement within the relationship, in my spiritual state, in my cultivation. Not to mention hers. Or the movement would have been much slower at least. I think the children have suffered from all this withheld anger too. Nobody wants a sissy father, right? (another dumb generalisation)