Is meditation necessary for self realization?

[Old Man Contradiction]

What do these nondual teachers say on meditation? I know Eckhart Tolle doesn't say it is necessary, I believe Nisargadatta also does not believe it is necessary. Adyashanti says that studying your thoughts until you see that the root belief of it is not true is needed, but not absolutely. Maharshi preached self-inquiry...

 

Please share what you know.

[Vajrahridaya]

What do these nondual teachers say on meditation? I know Eckhart Tolle doesn't say it is necessary, I believe Nisargadatta also does not believe it is necessary. Adyashanti says that studying your thoughts until you see that the root belief of it is not true is needed, but not absolutely. Maharshi preached self-inquiry...

 

Please share what you know.

 

I don't believe that all these teachers are or were fully liberated and could actually use some methodology to get further down their rabbit hole.

 

Also, a teacher is only going to teach according to how he or she got to wherever they are.

 

I for one think it's highly necessary. The Buddha I think said to a disciple that he should practice more vipassana than jhana? But, people need different things at different times and only an objective Buddha would know exactly what for who and when.

 

But, I personally recommend meditation for every single person on planet Earth.

[Sloppy Zhang]

The way I understand it is that meditation per se is not necessary. Instead, it's a certain state of mind/consciousness that leads to self realization. This state is usually referred to as "meditative" state, and is usually reached by meditation, but I think it can be reached by doing any number of things.

 

In B.K. Frantzis' book "Relaxing Into Your Being" there's a section in which he tells the story of Hui Neng, who basically cultivated by doing chores.

 

It's just a tool, a medium for self reflection, to see the parts of yourself that you normally aren't aware of. If the tool doesn't work for you, don't use it.

Edited September 22, 2009 by Sloppy Zhang

[Vajrahridaya]

 

In B.K. Frantzis' book "Relaxing Into Your Being" there's a section in which he tells the story of Hui Neng, who basically cultivated by doing chores.

 

 

See, I also think that's valid. It's true that one can cultivate meditation while doing anything. But, to experience certain metaphysical truths, I think it's important to do conscious stillness exercise, like on a cushion with back straight and legs folded. But, some people who live their day in a meditative state, experience the jhana absorptions and experience the metaphysical truths of multidimensional experiencing when they go to bed. This is what my own Rinpoche does as his sitting practice is mostly just the chanting with mudra, which is a meditative focus, but he doesn't actually do Samatha for Jhana I don't think at least? But, he does dream yoga and gets all the meditative experiences throughout the night.

Edited September 22, 2009 by Vajrahridaya

[Old Man Contradiction]

I don't believe that all these teachers are or were fully liberated

 

you never know...

 

I don't see hermitage in my near future, so although some of these teachers may not be fully liberated according to other people, the way they resonate with me on a grounded, realistic, and practical level is very moving.

 

Vajrahridaya, can you please make a new thread explaining what you believe to be ultimate truth? If it is deeper than the absence of duality and permanent existence as oneness, I'd like to see your words describe it, even though the words will only be "minus infinity of what the truth actually is".

Edited September 22, 2009 by Old Man Contradiction

[Marblehead]

I think that meditation is not too important for achieving self-realization. A good pinch on the butt will do.

 

Happy Trails!

[Encephalon]

My first reaction to your question was unreflective, unkind, and sarcastically ungenerous. So, I am a perfect example of why humans need to meditate. Meditation allows our nervous system to become sensitive enough to recognize just how vulnerable we are to our instincts and our conditioning. My unreflective reactions, according to Buddhist psychology, fall within one or more of the three poisons - referred to as delusion, hatred, and greed. These are the basic states of mind that live in the basement of our mental universe. They are just barely beyond our reptilian mode.

 

The following behaviors that appear to us as cognitive functions turn out to be sub-cortical, behviors we share with reptiles.

 

Selection and preparation of a home site

Establishment of territory (domain)

Marking and patrolling the territory

Preference for certain places

Trail making

Foraging

Hunting

Homing

Hoarding

Ritualistic display in defense of territory

Formalized intra-specific fighting in defense of territory

Triumphal display in successful defense

Assumption of distinctive postures signaling surrender

Use of defecation posts

Formation of social groups

Establishment of social hierarchy by ritualistic display and other means

Greeting

Grooming

Courtship with displays using coloration and adornments

Mating

Breeding

Flocking

Migration

 

It appears we have a lot more in common with lizards than we thought, and when people call me an animal, as they often do, I take it as a compliment (Wade, Jenny. Changes of Mind:A Holonomic Theory of the Evolution of

Consciousness. Albany:State University of New York Press, 1996.)

 

All that behavior is instinctual. That doesn't include the continuous bombardment of environmental conditioning we get from commercial advertising, especially in a consumer culture, where the real function is to keep our appetites and instincts perpetually tweaked. $300 billion a year spent on commercial bombing of America. Think you're immune?

 

Meditation trains our mind detect the patterns of unreflective thought the instant they take form, giving us an opportunity to think and act reflectively instead of reflexively. The three poisons of delusion, greed, and anger are transformed into the three pillars - Wisdom, Generosity, and Compassion.

 

As I understand it, this is the argument for meditation as a basic necessity of cognitive hygiene. The pursuit of more enlightened states of mind would depend on this basic achievement. I'm not here to embrace or reject any definitions and practices of meditation, but the critical function is to enable the mind to calm down enough to pay attention.

 

So much for Buddhism. They are the intellectuals of Asian thought, in my humble opinion.

 

The Taoists are not so top heavy with intellectualism, and in fact thay tend to hold it suspect if it becomes overdeveloped. "Learning proceeds from simplicity to complexity, and then from compexity to simplicity."

The Taoists begin with the body and regard it as central to the goal of personal transformation, as opposed to the Buddhists, who perceive the task as a more cerebral one

.

I'll side with the Taoists on this one. Their data set is so vast compared to those of other cultures that I spend every day wondering why it hasn't exploded onto the national stage. But I remain optimistic.

Taoist meditation goes way beyond the function of merely calming the mind; the goal is ultimate harmonization of body and mind with the promise of even higher states of consciousness that could be achieved through mind alone.

 

As I understand it, proficiency in the Microcosmic Orbit meditation paves the way for these higher states, so that's where my attention's at. Starting with the "Little Orbit" first, as defined by Trunk's website at http://www.precisiondocs.com/~altaoism/ was the best advice I've acquired in here.

 

Nei kung, internal chi kung, sure helps too. www.neikungla.com

 

And don't forget to Kill Your Television

 

Yes. Meditation, the kind that wakes you out of your stupor, is necessary for self-realization. It will also keep you from being an asshole, although I haven't been entirely successful in that arena either.

Edited September 22, 2009 by Blasto

[vsaluki]

What do these nondual teachers say on meditation? I know Eckhart Tolle doesn't say it is necessary, I believe Nisargadatta also does not believe it is necessary. Adyashanti says that studying your thoughts until you see that the root belief of it is not true is needed, but not absolutely. Maharshi preached self-inquiry...

 

Please share what you know.

 

It's a good question. First I believe that you can get to the unitive concept through reflection. But grasping the concept is not the same as experiencing the world in that way. It's like being blind and having someone explain the color red to you. You get it, but you don't experience it. Can a grasp of the concept help you get to where you can experience the world that way? I don't know.

 

I do believe that meditation can help you quiet the mind. And I don't think that frantic people who are being whipped around by what they think is reality have much hope. So I would say that meditation increases your chances, but it doesn't guarantee success and non meditation doesn't guarantee failure.

[orb]

What do these nondual teachers say on meditation? I know Eckhart Tolle doesn't say it is necessary, I believe Nisargadatta also does not believe it is necessary. Adyashanti says that studying your thoughts until you see that the root belief of it is not true is needed, but not absolutely. Maharshi preached self-inquiry...

 

Please share what you know.

 

Adyashanti - my favorite teacher - by far, says that he meditated for a couple of decades until he understood what he needed to understand but also he will be the first one to tell you that meditation is not for everybody. After all that time wasted on meditation he became aware of smth that was already there from the beginning and he will tell you that you already have everything you need and you don't have to go anywhere or see anyone.

When you go to see him he will answer all your questions in such a way that you might even ask yourself the question "why the hell am I here, I don't even have any real questions...".

It's been said for a long time 1000 monks = 1000 religions - to each his own path.

Some might require 20 years, others a life time - while everything can be accomplished in 1 sec right here and right now, be present of yourself of your body/feelings and thoughts, observe everything and observe the observer at the same time.

One frequent problem is that people expect this to be far more complicated then it is, we get addicted to "searching" for teachers and methods and theories..., we get obsessed with "trying to understand things" when everything is very simple and straight forward, all you have to do is "do it" always and everywhere, but don't do anything sofisticated and complicated, just be aware. We have all kind of stories and theories of what things should be like and what they shouldn't be like.

Just let go of everything in your head - don't try stoping it, just don't identify with it......

and take all your favorite theories and beliefs and all the books in the world and all the teachers (even Adyashanti and Buddha and Jessus and all the taobums with all their posts on this forums ) and put them together in a big pile and set it on fire and just let it burn completely and let the wind scatter all the ashes and ...that's it... you just observe your own breathing

[Sunya]

Adyashanti - my favorite teacher - by far, says that he meditated for a couple of decades until he understood what he needed to understand but also he will be the first one to tell you that meditation is not for everybody. After all that time wasted on meditation he became aware of smth that was already there from the beginning and he will tell you that you already have everything you need and you don't have to go anywhere or see anyone.

When you go to see him he will answer all your questions in such a way that you might even ask yourself the question "why the hell am I here, I don't even have any real questions...".

It's been said for a long time 1000 monks = 1000 religions - to each his own path.

Some might require 20 years, others a life time - while everything can be accomplished in 1 sec right here and right now, be present of yourself of your body/feelings and thoughts, observe everything and observe the observer at the same time.

One frequent problem is that people expect this to be far more complicated then it is, we get addicted to "searching" for teachers and methods and theories..., we get obsessed with "trying to understand things" when everything is very simple and straight forward, all you have to do is "do it" always and everywhere, but don't do anything sofisticated and complicated, just be aware. We have all kind of stories and theories of what things should be like and what they shouldn't be like.

Just let go of everything in your head - don't try stoping it, just don't identify with it......

and take all your favorite theories and beliefs and all the books in the world and all the teachers (even Adyashanti and Buddha and Jessus and all the taobums with all their posts on this forums ) and put them together in a big pile and set it on fire and just let it burn completely and let the wind scatter all the ashes and ...that's it... you just observe your own breathing

 

see thats the problem. teachers teach from the perspective of already being there, at a really high level. thats the problem i feel with Krishnamurity. he would just rail on you about how religion is all a joke and meant to inspire fear and complacency.

 

if Adyashanti thinkts meditation isn't necessary, ask him if he would've gotten that same realization without meditating?

 

meditating is very important, for everyone. how else will we overcome attachment to senses and thoughts? what is non-meditation? what is meditation? you have to define terms. usually when teachers say you don't have to meditate are actually redefining meditation to be something else.

 

theres a good Dzogchen quote which shows that meditation shouldn't be the traditional "i'm sitting down now and meditating" thing.

 

One day a visitor came to see the well known Dzogchen master Yundon Dorje Bal (1284-1365). The visitor asked "You Dzogchen practitioners, you are always doing meditation, right?"

Yundon Dorje Bal answered "What am I supposed to be meditating upon?"

"Ah", the visitor then said, "then you practitioners of Dzogchen do not meditate?"

This time the master's reply was "When am I ever distracted?"

[orb]

 

if Adyashanti thinkts meditation isn't necessary, ask him if he would've gotten that same realization without meditating?

 

meditating is very important, for everyone. how else will we overcome attachment to senses and thoughts? what is non-meditation? what is meditation? you have to define terms. usually when teachers say you don't have to meditate are actually redefining meditation to be something else.

 

 

I am pretty sure I already covered everything that you have asked. I was addressing exactly your kind of approach.

In my understanding you got into this internal infinite loop - master such and such said this and that and it took "him" so long ..... and then he understood this and that ..... so you are stuck in all these theories and there's no way out of it. You will never be able to get to the end. You have to separate from all that - don't try to stop it just separate from it. Let it go. Don't be afraid. That's why I said what I said about the big burning pile and you even made it bigger ...Take Yundon Dorje Bal and Krishnamurty and tell them to go home and leave you alone.

You already seem to know way too much for your own good and you are not using any of it.

You are caring all that load on your back for so long that you forgot even why you have it.

 

Also, I never said that Adyashanti thinks meditation isn't necessary he just said that it's not for everybody - who knows - maybe it is for you or maybe it's not - but guess what - you are the only one in this world that would know that !

 

At the same time I might not make too much sense to you (although I tried) but I guarantee that if you go to one of Adyashanti's seminars he will answer all your questions in a much better way - he is very opened-minded and also very clever and he will show you the state that you need, but only if you let him.

Good luck.

[goldisheavy]

What do these nondual teachers say on meditation? I know Eckhart Tolle doesn't say it is necessary, I believe Nisargadatta also does not believe it is necessary. Adyashanti says that studying your thoughts until you see that the root belief of it is not true is needed, but not absolutely. Maharshi preached self-inquiry...

 

Please share what you know.

 

 

Meditation is like exercise or like pooping. Neither is necessary, but life is better if you don't forget to exercise and poop. Self-realization is a state of wisdom, and due to the nature of what it means to be wise, one cannot say if wisdom arose due to something or despite of that same something.

 

Meditation tends to confirm and amplify whatever you already believe. This is why Buddhists stress "the view" as of paramount importance. If you don't have the "right" view, meditation will just make you more narrow-minded and sick. If your view has some measure of wisdom in it, meditation can be very good. Meditation is like leverage in investment.

[Old Man Contradiction]

what is meditation?

 

Okay, now that is the truth.

 

I spent a year mentally masturbating with philosophy and quantum physics... It got me nowhere.

 

My mind-body training of yichuan actually taught me a way of being with my pain. This is good and has proven to be useful.

 

Now I look at my thoughts and feelings, my life situation, and I try to let them be. Not logically, but I experience it. I also listen to the sounds and sights of the moment, paying close attention without labeling anything, just being the moment. So, letting go. No mind. Of course sometimes I enter a trance and are absorbed by ego, but I always remember to check it, and enter my body and awareness of the moment. Where it means something to be alive, not dead in the mind.

 

This is my meditation, I experience stillness in the experience for now. Maybe someday I will close my eyes and pay attention, but from experience it's similar if not the same. Actually easier for me with my eyes closed, but i'll keep them open for now.

Edited September 23, 2009 by Old Man Contradiction

[Ya Mu]

Is meditation necessary for self realization?

 

Getting hit by Lightning works pretty good.

[Vajrahridaya]

Getting hit by Lightning works pretty good.

Pretty sure that'll kill ya! Unless it's just a small charge, then you might end up like that kid in Phenomena.

[Ya Mu]

Pretty sure that'll kill ya! Unless it's just a small charge, then you might end up like that kid in Phenomena.

 

I don't recommend anyone seeking it - but it did work for me very well. A true experience that there is no past/present/future only NOW.

 

 

edit: Can I also say it was a very illuminating experience?

Edited September 23, 2009 by Ya Mu

[DalTheJigsaw123]

The way I understand it is that meditation per se is not necessary. Instead, it's a certain state of mind/consciousness that leads to self realization. This state is usually referred to as "meditative" state, and is usually reached by meditation, but I think it can be reached by doing any number of things.

 

In B.K. Frantzis' book "Relaxing Into Your Being" there's a section in which he tells the story of Hui Neng, who basically cultivated by doing chores.

 

It's just a tool, a medium for self reflection, to see the parts of yourself that you normally aren't aware of. If the tool doesn't work for you, don't use it.

 

 

That was beautiful! Please tell me more:) The whole: In B.K. Frantzis' book "Relaxing Into Your Being" there's a section in which he tells the story of Hui Neng, who basically cultivated by doing chores." That was amazing!

[Old Man Contradiction]

edit: Can I also say it was a very illuminating experience?

hahaha I don't usually out loud at those jokes but that was hilarious

Edited September 23, 2009 by Old Man Contradiction

[mat black]

In B.K. Frantzis' book "Relaxing Into Your Being" there's a section in which he tells the story of Hui Neng, who basically cultivated by doing chores.

But he had been meditating for many lives previous. The 'sudden' is just the culmination of the gradual. When the conditions are right, past cultivation (which includes meditation) can culminate in what appears to be sudden awakening. What is not always obvious though is that much prior application and effort had been applied by that person.

 

Elder Master Hsu Yun became enlightened when someoone dropped their drink and the glass smashed, but again, he had been meditating prior to this for a very long time. The smashing of the glass was the culmination, he had previously done the necessary meditation.

 

Meditation can be likened to a reversal of all of the energy that is being projected out by the 5 senses and all the false identification that comes with that.

To reverse this current and illume within, finding the source of the 'experiencer' and uncover our original inherent natutre is what we aim to do.

Edited September 23, 2009 by mat black

[DalTheJigsaw123]

My first reaction to your question was unreflective, unkind, and sarcastically ungenerous. So, I am a perfect example of why humans need to meditate. Meditation allows our nervous system to become sensitive enough to recognize just how vulnerable we are to our instincts and our conditioning. My unreflective reactions, according to Buddhist psychology, fall within one or more of the three poisons - referred to as delusion, hatred, and greed. These are the basic states of mind that live in the basement of our mental universe. They are just barely beyond our reptilian mode.

 

The following behaviors that appear to us as cognitive functions turn out to be sub-cortical, behviors we share with reptiles.

 

Selection and preparation of a home site

Establishment of territory (domain)

Marking and patrolling the territory

Preference for certain places

Trail making

Foraging

Hunting

Homing

Hoarding

Ritualistic display in defense of territory

Formalized intra-specific fighting in defense of territory

Triumphal display in successful defense

Assumption of distinctive postures signaling surrender

Use of defecation posts

Formation of social groups

Establishment of social hierarchy by ritualistic display and other means

Greeting

Grooming

Courtship with displays using coloration and adornments

Mating

Breeding

Flocking

Migration

 

It appears we have a lot more in common with lizards than we thought, and when people call me an animal, as they often do, I take it as a compliment (Wade, Jenny. Changes of Mind:A Holonomic Theory of the Evolution of

Consciousness. Albany:State University of New York Press, 1996.)

 

All that behavior is instinctual. That doesn't include the continuous bombardment of environmental conditioning we get from commercial advertising, especially in a consumer culture, where the real function is to keep our appetites and instincts perpetually tweaked. $300 billion a year spent on commercial bombing of America. Think you're immune?

 

Meditation trains our mind detect the patterns of unreflective thought the instant they take form, giving us an opportunity to think and act reflectively instead of reflexively. The three poisons of delusion, greed, and anger are transformed into the three pillars - Wisdom, Generosity, and Compassion.

 

As I understand it, this is the argument for meditation as a basic necessity of cognitive hygiene. The pursuit of more enlightened states of mind would depend on this basic achievement. I'm not here to embrace or reject any definitions and practices of meditation, but the critical function is to enable the mind to calm down enough to pay attention.

 

So much for Buddhism. They are the intellectuals of Asian thought, in my humble opinion.

 

The Taoists are not so top heavy with intellectualism, and in fact thay tend to hold it suspect if it becomes overdeveloped. "Learning proceeds from simplicity to complexity, and then from compexity to simplicity."

The Taoists begin with the body and regard it as central to the goal of personal transformation, as opposed to the Buddhists, who perceive the task as a more cerebral one

.

I'll side with the Taoists on this one. Their data set is so vast compared to those of other cultures that I spend every day wondering why it hasn't exploded onto the national stage. But I remain optimistic.

Taoist meditation goes way beyond the function of merely calming the mind; the goal is ultimate harmonization of body and mind with the promise of even higher states of consciousness that could be achieved through mind alone.

 

As I understand it, proficiency in the Microcosmic Orbit meditation paves the way for these higher states, so that's where my attention's at. Starting with the "Little Orbit" first, as defined by Trunk's website at http://www.precisiondocs.com/~altaoism/ was the best advice I've acquired in here.

 

Nei kung, internal chi kung, sure helps too. www.neikungla.com

 

And don't forget to Kill Your Television

 

Yes. Meditation, the kind that wakes you out of your stupor, is necessary for self-realization. It will also keep you from being an asshole, although I haven't been entirely successful in that arena either.

 

That was quite beautiful! Literally, that helped me a bit. Thank you! If you have more to add, please do!

[DalTheJigsaw123]

Adyashanti - my favorite teacher - by far, says that he meditated for a couple of decades until he understood what he needed to understand but also he will be the first one to tell you that meditation is not for everybody. After all that time wasted on meditation he became aware of smth that was already there from the beginning and he will tell you that you already have everything you need and you don't have to go anywhere or see anyone.

When you go to see him he will answer all your questions in such a way that you might even ask yourself the question "why the hell am I here, I don't even have any real questions...".

It's been said for a long time 1000 monks = 1000 religions - to each his own path.

Some might require 20 years, others a life time - while everything can be accomplished in 1 sec right here and right now, be present of yourself of your body/feelings and thoughts, observe everything and observe the observer at the same time.

One frequent problem is that people expect this to be far more complicated then it is, we get addicted to "searching" for teachers and methods and theories..., we get obsessed with "trying to understand things" when everything is very simple and straight forward, all you have to do is "do it" always and everywhere, but don't do anything sofisticated and complicated, just be aware. We have all kind of stories and theories of what things should be like and what they shouldn't be like.

Just let go of everything in your head - don't try stoping it, just don't identify with it......

and take all your favorite theories and beliefs and all the books in the world and all the teachers (even Adyashanti and Buddha and Jessus and all the taobums with all their posts on this forums ) and put them together in a big pile and set it on fire and just let it burn completely and let the wind scatter all the ashes and ...that's it... you just observe your own breathing

 

Now, that was truly beautiful! It is that simple. I'm coming to realize that all of the knowledge possessed through books, internet, teachers, gurus and etc, is all pure crap! In reality, we have all the knowledge we need in us. It is really that simple. We just need to learn how to tap into it.

[Ya Mu]

But he had been meditating for many lives previous. The 'sudden' is just the culmination of the gradual. When the conditions are right, past cultivation (which includes meditation) can culminate in what appears to be sudden awakening. What is not always obvious though is that much prior application and effort had been applied by that person.

...

 

Many do not understand this. This is why I say that to raise the energy body vibrational frequency is something that can be carried on and not limited to this "snap of the fingers" that we call our lifetime. Also why I put more emphasis on awareness than on the physical.

 

Now, that was truly beautiful! It is that simple. I'm coming to realize that all of the knowledge possessed through books, internet, teachers, gurus and etc, is all pure crap! In reality, we have all the knowledge we need in us. It is really that simple. We just need to learn how to tap into it.

 

And one can learn to tap into it by raising the energy body vibrational frequency through internal meditative qigong practice.

[Encephalon]

That was quite beautiful! Literally, that helped me a bit. Thank you! If you have more to add, please do!

 

Oh, I dare not!

[DalTheJigsaw123]

Many do not understand this. This is why I say that to raise the energy body vibrational frequency is something that can be carried on and not limited to this "snap of the fingers" that we call our lifetime. Also why I put more emphasis on awareness than on the physical.

And one can learn to tap into it by raising the energy body vibrational frequency through internal meditative qigong practice.

 

What about Tai Chi? Can you do that with Tai Chi? Regular Meditation?

 

Oh, I dare not!

 

Oh, don't be shy:)

 

Many do not understand this. This is why I say that to raise the energy body vibrational frequency is something that can be carried on and not limited to this "snap of the fingers" that we call our lifetime. Also why I put more emphasis on awareness than on the physical.

And one can learn to tap into it by raising the energy body vibrational frequency through internal meditative qigong practice.

 

I wonder if it could be done with music? Meditation music? What about chanting?

[Ya Mu]

What about Tai Chi? Can you do that with Tai Chi? Regular Meditation?

 

I wonder if it could be done with music? Meditation music? What about chanting?

Tai Chi is a martial art. If you learn qigong first then you can turn it into a energy gongfu. In another thread you posted I gave you a link to a good tai chi dvd so you could see what it is about. To actually learn it you need a teacher. Just like you need a teacher to learn real qigong.

 

I make music and meditate. I listen to music or not when I meditate. I meditate when watching movies, I meditate ... The question IS, what do YOU want to do?

 

You know, this is a good board for asking questions with a lot of knowledgeable people and asking questions is a good thing. But you need to realize that anyone can post here and say anything whatsoever; doesn't mean it has a lick of truth to it. Find a class to take with a teacher and see what it is all about for yourself, don't take our word for it!

 

If you want to learn a powerful form of qigong come to my next workshop.