Is meditation necessary for self realization?

DalTheJigsaw123 · September 23, 2009

Tai Chi is a martial art. If you learn qigong first then you can turn it into a energy gongfu. In another thread you posted I gave you a link to a good tai chi dvd so you could see what it is about. To actually learn it you need a teacher. Just like you need a teacher to learn real qigong.

I make music and meditate. I listen to music or not when I meditate. I meditate when watching movies, I meditate ... The question IS, what do YOU want to do?

You know, this is a good board for asking questions with a lot of knowledgeable people and asking questions is a good thing. But you need to realize that anyone can post here and say anything whatsoever; doesn't mean it has a lick of truth to it. Find a class to take with a teacher and see what it is all about for yourself, don't take our word for it!

If you want to learn a powerful form of qigong come to my next workshop.

Where are you located? I would like to take a few classes. How much is the cost? I do not have much, therefore, not sure how I can the the class and the teacher.

Vajrahridaya · September 23, 2009

If you want to learn a powerful form of qigong come to my next workshop.

LOL! I love your picture! You look like your speed skating on sand! Craaaazy!! Is that a Taoist siddhi? :lol:

Ya Mu · September 23, 2009

Where are you located? I would like to take a few classes. How much is the cost? I do not have much, therefore, not sure how I can the the class and the teacher.

Here is a flyer for my next class.

My website is listed in signature below.

LOL! I love your picture! You look like your speed skating on sand! Craaaazy!! Is that a Taoist siddhi?

Yes, Taoist sand speed skating technique - guaranteed to provide awareness of a nose full of sand. :lol: :rolleyes:

Actually I was doing the Gift of the Tao: Vibratory Acts of Power qigong movements.

Lucky7Strikes · September 23, 2009

Vajrahridaya, can you please make a new thread explaining what you believe to be ultimate truth? If it is deeper than the absence of duality and permanent existence as oneness, I'd like to see your words describe it, even though the words will only be "minus infinity of what the truth actually is".

:blink: ...

:lol:

You seem to have missed out on all the parties!

Edited September 23, 2009 by Lucky7Strikes

Lucky7Strikes · September 23, 2009

Adyashanti - my favorite teacher - by far, says that he meditated for a couple of decades until he understood what he needed to understand but also he will be the first one to tell you that meditation is not for everybody. After all that time wasted on meditation he became aware of smth that was already there from the beginning and he will tell you that you already have everything you need and you don't have to go anywhere or see anyone.

When you go to see him he will answer all your questions in such a way that you might even ask yourself the question "why the hell am I here, I don't even have any real questions...".

It's been said for a long time 1000 monks = 1000 religions - to each his own path.

Some might require 20 years, others a life time - while everything can be accomplished in 1 sec right here and right now, be present of yourself of your body/feelings and thoughts, observe everything and observe the observer at the same time.

One frequent problem is that people expect this to be far more complicated then it is, we get addicted to "searching" for teachers and methods and theories..., we get obsessed with "trying to understand things" when everything is very simple and straight forward, all you have to do is "do it" always and everywhere, but don't do anything sofisticated and complicated, just be aware. We have all kind of stories and theories of what things should be like and what they shouldn't be like.

Just let go of everything in your head - don't try stoping it, just don't identify with it......

and take all your favorite theories and beliefs and all the books in the world and all the teachers (even Adyashanti and Buddha and Jessus and all the taobums with all their posts on this forums ) and put them together in a big pile and set it on fire and just let it burn completely and let the wind scatter all the ashes and ...that's it... you just observe your own breathing

Then there is the obsession to letting go. A grasping to letting go. Just don't identify with it! Then who is there to NOT identify with it?

You shouldn't burn the books. They are quite useful. To observe breathing forever will simply make you an observer of the breath.

The problem with people like Adyashanti is that he wanted to attain a state of liberation. There was an effort towards an idealistic goal. And since it could never come to fruition that way, he made more progress by letting that attachment go. And Ah ha! a great release of burden! bliss! And that burden was self made in the first place! And so they abandon the traditional doctrine of effort to signify the practice of "non-effort." To let go or whatever, "you are already there!" kind of thing. But to do that is not to see that in non-doing, there is doing. And in effortless, there is effort. Moreover, true effort and action is both effortless and still.

Unconditioned · September 23, 2009

But he had been meditating for many lives previous. The 'sudden' is just the culmination of the gradual. When the conditions are right, past cultivation (which includes meditation) can culminate in what appears to be sudden awakening. What is not always obvious though is that much prior application and effort had been applied by that person.

Elder Master Hsu Yun became enlightened when someoone dropped their drink and the glass smashed, but again, he had been meditating prior to this for a very long time. The smashing of the glass was the culmination, he had previously done the necessary meditation.

Meditation can be likened to a reversal of all of the energy that is being projected out by the 5 senses and all the false identification that comes with that.

To reverse this current and illume within, finding the source of the 'experiencer' and uncover our original inherent natutre is what we aim to do.

How do we know he'd been meditating in prior lives? I haven't read the platform sutra in some time but I don't recall Hui Neng mentioning it. His whole sutra was about sudden enlightenment as opposed to gradual.

I would argue that the idea of previous lives can only be verified individually, if that's even possible (some claim they know their previous identities but you have to have faith in what they say, there's no proof unless you experience it directly). So it sounds like a big assumption that the sudden enlightenment described in the platform sutra was infact gradual.

But in general, we can only speculate on whether or not a specific condition is necessary for us individually. We all are products of varied conditions (albeit completely connected/affected by everything else).

So, is meditation needed for self realization? It's likely possible for the answer to be "yes" for some and "no" for others. I practice meditation so I can say for sure I wouldn't be where I am spiritually without it. I can only guess what spiritual state I'd be in if I didn't meditate.

Trunk · September 23, 2009

What a pleasure to read.

Vajrahridaya · September 23, 2009

Yes, Taoist sand speed skating technique - guaranteed to provide awareness of a nose full of sand.

Actually I was doing the Gift of the Tao: Vibratory Acts of Power qigong movements.

I figured it was something Qigongy. :lol:

DaoChild · September 23, 2009

What do these nondual teachers say on meditation? I know Eckhart Tolle doesn't say it is necessary, I believe Nisargadatta also does not believe it is necessary. Adyashanti says that studying your thoughts until you see that the root belief of it is not true is needed, but not absolutely. Maharshi preached self-inquiry...

Please share what you know.

Meditation is just a vehicle to bring self-awareness into daily life. If you can do it another way, works just as well.

Vajrahridaya · September 23, 2009

Vajrahridaya, can you please make a new thread explaining what you believe to be ultimate truth? If it is deeper than the absence of duality and permanent existence as oneness, I'd like to see your words describe it, even though the words will only be "minus infinity of what the truth actually is".

I don't know if that needs to be done as if you read the "Why buddhism is different" thread, you'll get a good idea.

You'd get more from reading the whole thing, as it is nuanced, on many sides of the equation from many people.

Edited September 23, 2009 by Vajrahridaya

Old Man Contradiction · September 23, 2009

...

You seem to have missed out on all the parties!

ah found them

Meditation is just a vehicle to bring self-awareness into daily life. If you can do it another way, works just as well.

No arguing with that.

I don't know if that needs to be done as if you read the "Why buddhism is different" thread, you'll get a good idea.

You'd get more from reading the whole thing, as it is nuanced, on many sides of the equation from many people.

So basically the problem is identifying with oneness. Is this essentially what your believe to be the limiting factor of non buddhists?

Edited September 23, 2009 by Old Man Contradiction

Ninpo-me-this-ninjutsu-me-that · September 23, 2009

I think the whole 'you don't have to go anywhere or do anything, it's already all there inside you' thing, is all very well but totally unhelpful, I mean I'm sure we can all agree since everything is everything how could we not be a total part of that everything. The fact is when someone has reached self realisation yeah they can say this, but that's no help at all to anyone else really. You don't have to go anywhere or do anything but nothing will change unless you break the ego down that causes the dissatisfaction, then through meditation this can be done, then you can be content..... and know, really know that feeling, but totally pointless to say it, it doesn't help anyone, in fact quite the opposite maybe, certain people might take that to mean do nothing....ya I know that's very wu wei, but honestly it doesn't help break the ego down..... then again life often does that anyway I suppose, ..... in which case I guess not going anywhere or doing anything may be right after all, you can just gradually let life break the ego down.

I tire of myself, I really do. :blink:

Jedi777 · September 23, 2009

What do these nondual teachers say on meditation? I know Eckhart Tolle doesn't say it is necessary, I believe Nisargadatta also does not believe it is necessary. Adyashanti says that studying your thoughts until you see that the root belief of it is not true is needed, but not absolutely. Maharshi preached self-inquiry...

Please share what you know.

YES unless you are born self realized which is only the first level of realization..

Vajrahridaya · September 23, 2009

So basically the problem is identifying with oneness. Is this essentially what your believe to be the limiting factor of non buddhists?

One of the main ones. Yes. I single source of all being. A real and existent alpha that is also the omega that all things find reality in. The ultimate ground of being as being a singular holistic supreme force or motivator of all activity. The single gravitational pull of all motion. Both the manifest and unmanifest as a singular sum of all totality.

This would be considered part of the reason why Samsarins recycle in the mire of ambiguous conclusions about the universe.

Edited September 23, 2009 by Vajrahridaya

Old Man Contradiction · September 23, 2009

I think the whole 'you don't have to go anywhere or do anything, it's already all there inside you' thing, is all very well but totally unhelpful

When Adyashanti says it is already within me, I immediately recognize that undercurrent the precedes thought forms. Usually I'll stay there for a while. In this way... it actually does help me.

Wayfarer64 · September 23, 2009

I don't know about self-realization being the goal of meditation...I was born self-aware and awake and haven't lost that sense of self ever...

I use meditation mostly just to relax and center myself.

Stubbing my toe once woke me right up when I was exhausted .. :lol:

.Learn what works for you, use what you understand...

~jK~ · September 23, 2009

Meditation is the focus of my life.

Meditation is nature's mental own health clinic.