democracy in China ? / Chinese History

[Yoda]

I'm just sitting down to study Chinese history 101 for the first time and based on what can see from China's past, I'm not seeing any 'seeds' of democracy and it looks like there will always be some sort of non-democracy type rule for quite some time.

 

Not that this is a problem... the kingship model has a number of advantages.

 

It seems that China has been used to pretty cut throat politics loaded with internal spies for centuries.

 

I think that Taoist, Buddhist, and Confuscian ideals have maybe infused the ruling class with idealism on and off through history but there's seemingly very little of those sorts of ideals still meaningfully active. (?)

 

So that might be a negative trend at the moment but it seems that Chinese history has had a lots of good and bad in its past that the current state isn't such a train wreck as I had supposed, perhaps. Perhaps they'll bounce back at some point?

 

It does seem that in the last few centuries the Taoism/Buddhism/Confuscianism had been losing their edge.

 

Maybe the current state is more of a religion meltdown than a political meltdown?

 

Yoda

[Smile]

Will there ever be a democracy in the United States? If they failed to do it here, what makes you think they are willing to do it in China?

[CarsonZi]

Will there ever be a democracy in the United States? If they failed to do it here, what makes you think they are willing to do it in China?

 

Hahaha.......I was going to write the EXACT same thing (except citing "North America" instead of the US) but figured that would be too arguementative....glad someone said it though

 

Love,

Carson

[joeblast]

Until people pay attention to who they are voting for, our democratic republic will continue to erode...

[Marblehead]

I'm not sure a democracy would be good for China. And actually I don't htink it would be accurate to call it a communist nation any more. Prehaps more at a dictatorship with a group of dictators rather than a single dictator.

 

Ah, my Dear US Republic. Where did it go? It just got lost somewhere and devolved into a democracy. Actually, a republic form of government wouldn't be bad for China, I think.

 

Happy Trails!

[NeiChuan]

Yeah imo a few monetary systems just are inhuman.. Well all but some more then others.. The only thing that can really help (OTHER then communism) is moderation.. Thats a big reason the US is messed anyway <.<.. Because the system doesnt seem to matter - If it was it'd be effective..

[Marblehead]

The only thing that can really help (OTHER then communism) is moderation.

 

Well, I am still waiting for that benevolent dictator to arrive and take control of the world.

 

Happy Trails!

[Ninpo-me-this-ninjutsu-me-that]

I'm just sitting down to study Chinese history 101 for the first time and based on what can see from China's past, I'm not seeing any 'seeds' of democracy and it looks like there will always be some sort of non-democracy type rule for quite some time.

 

Not that this is a problem... the kingship model has a number of advantages.

 

It seems that China has been used to pretty cut throat politics loaded with internal spies for centuries.

 

I think that Taoist, Buddhist, and Confuscian ideals have maybe infused the ruling class with idealism on and off through history but there's seemingly very little of those sorts of ideals still meaningfully active. (?)

 

So that might be a negative trend at the moment but it seems that Chinese history has had a lots of good and bad in its past that the current state isn't such a train wreck as I had supposed, perhaps. Perhaps they'll bounce back at some point?

 

It does seem that in the last few centuries the Taoism/Buddhism/Confuscianism had been losing their edge.

 

Maybe the current state is more of a religion meltdown than a political meltdown?

 

Yoda

 

Ya, no one in China to be honest is too concerned with this whole 'democracy' issue. They care about 3 things, money, power and face. That's it. You would be hard pushed to find 1 in a 100 who even has any other base concepts as a motivating factor in their life. Can't blame them really, history has taught them that these 3 things are what assures survival through all kinds of upheavals, and the grandparents haven't forgotten the last one care of Mr. Mao, and since it's pretty much the grandparents through each generation that raises the children as the parents are at work cultivating money, power and face(where possible)then these base 'values' are what are retaught again and again. As one Chinese person told me 'if we had democracy, if one political party disagreed with another they could raise an army easily(care of the huge population)and cause a civil war', they would too, the communists know this as they avidly study their own countries history, happened all the time, wouldn't matter democracy or monarchy, there's always some group dissatisfied in China. With 1.3 billion people that's always likely.

 

 

Will there ever be a democracy in the United States? If they failed to do it here, what makes you think they are willing to do it in China?

 

Good point. You forgot to mention the rest of the world too. Frankly, I've never met a bunch of people more capitalistic in the world than the Chinese. I think it is as Yoda says, it's more of a religious crisis than anything else. Bizarre thing is many believe in Qi gong(many do not also)but if you mentioned Daoism or Buddhism they would really laugh in your face; having said that Christianity is strangely getting more popular simply because it seems a bit fashionable and exotic!

[hyok]

Seems like we're in a transition period, both China and the US, to figure out what type of governance will prevail for the next century or millenia or whatever. From a global Yin Yang standpoint, China seems to be behaving as Yin while the US is behaving like Yang. Some sort of conflict is occurring already through which, IMHO, the scales of power will tip to one side or the other. I think it will be China that endures, and my reason is simply that the US will probably not annihilate Russia or China but bow to their own mistakes.

 

Who knows though. On the macro-level I have a hunch everyone at the top is heavily influenced by a small group of powerful magicians.

 

On the micro level, a solid program to raise the Kundalinis of the masses will probably spark a new form of global governance as super-consciousness prevails over the present primitive mind. Perhaps this is what the Controllers have been preparing us for since the rise of Rosicrucianism - some sort of massive awakening in the near-future.

[NeiChuan]

Well, I am still waiting for that benevolent dictator to arrive and take control of the world.

 

Happy Trails!

 

I meant dictatorship aswell =P. Pretty much a handful of systems just need to be monitored and such then there'll be some balance.

[Marblehead]

I meant dictatorship aswell =P. Pretty much a handful of systems just need to be monitored and such then there'll be some balance.

 

Strange thing here though. Most benelovent people I have ever heard of would have nothing to do with government. But there is still hope (if you are into that).

 

I got that strange idea of one world, no individual nations, overseen by a benelovent dictator. A world community of cosmopolitans while reading Albert Camus a long time ago. I don't even remember which writing I got the idea from but I do know it came from him.

 

Fly Free!

[gendao]

I'm just sitting down to study Chinese history 101 for the first time and based on what can see from China's past, I'm not seeing any 'seeds' of democracy and it looks like there will always be some sort of non-democracy type rule for quite some time.

Actually, the Chinese Civil War in the 20s was between the "democratic" KMT and the Communists.

 

The KMT lost and fled to Taiwan, where they have since established their "democracy."

 

Not to mention Tiananmen Square in 1989.

I think they've made some truly valiant efforts, but have not quite reached the tipping point or critical mass yet...

 

In the end though, dictatorship can take various forms. One is with an actual ruthless (or benevolent) dictator. The other is with dictatorship by the majority - which could mean either the powerful Bernaysian elites who mind-control public opinion or the fast-breeding, lowest common denominator underclass of a "democracy" who get the most votes. Or a combination of the 2 - a brainwashed underclass.

 

Since China still has a majority of impoverished, poorly-educated "nongmin" farmers...the fear for a democracy there is thus a nation and policies driven by naive peasants. After all, it was these same "naive" peasants who were seduced by and ushered in Mao to begin with! Similar to the emerging problem in the US - of a nation driven by the most rapidly-growing, "childlike" welfare class who keep pushing for a parental Orwellian police state.

 

I also think that the US has oversimplified politics to making democracy some magic bullet. Like it is the end-all goal of any society. Remember the extreme pride ths US took in de-Communizing Russia? Well, what's funny is how they refused to publicize any of the aftermath - a country plunged into chaos by mafia rule, lol. Where in the meantime, China has actually surpassed Russia in building a more solid infrastructure and industrial base. Of course, this was more due to their 1-child BC policy, extreme work ethic, homogeneous collectivism, explosive entrepreneurial spirit and unencumbered free market capitalism, than anything else...

 

But point being:

A democracy is only as good (or bad) as its lowest common denominator.

A dictatorship is only as good (or bad) as its dictator.

I of course, still prefer the former, but hypothetically a benevolent dictator could be "better" than a selfish, ignorant majority. Especially in cases where they make hard calls that are good for the state, but nobody would actually vote for. Like say, cutting pork and only spending what you can actually afford...

 

Anyhow, I find the average American and Chinese to both be politically-illiterate. There, the news is state-censored. Here, it is simply distorted by the tiny handful of media moguls who own it all, and their narrow agenda. Not to mention, most people are more interested in "cake & circuses" than politics, anyways...

Edited September 25, 2009 by vortex

[Marblehead]

 

But point being:

A democracy is only as good (or bad) as its lowest common denominator.

A dictatorship is only as good (or bad) as its dictator.

I of course, still prefer the former, but hypothetically a benevolent dictator could be "better" than an ignorant majority. Especially in cases where they make hard calls that are good for the state, but nobody would actually vote for. Like say, cutting pork and only spending what you can actually afford...

 

Anyhow, I find the average American and Chinese to both be politically-illiterate. There, the news is state-censored. Here, it is simply distorted by the tiny handful of media moguls who own it all, and their narrow agenda. Not to mention, most people are more interested in "cake & circuses" than politics, anyways...

 

I fully agree.

 

Democracy depends on how well the ignorant can be persuaded to vote a particular way. Hey! Offer them a tax break - that always works. Hehehe. (Doesn't matter how deeply the country goes into debt - That'll be for the next generation to work out.

 

However, with a dictatorship the resources of the nation, or the world in my vision, can be better distributed to better the standard of living for all the people and destruction of the resources can be minimized.

 

See Spot Run!

[gendao]

Democracy depends on how well the ignorant can be persuaded to vote a particular way. Hey! Offer them a tax break - that always works. Hehehe. (Doesn't matter how deeply the country goes into debt - That'll be for the next generation to work out.

Seriously, why are we $10 trillion in debt now?

 

Because nobody ever votes for any politicians who promise to cut spending. That's career suicide for any politician.

 

Imagine if a school was democratic. Hey kids...so who wants homework & tests?

 

NOOOOOOO!!!!

 

Ok, guess not. Recess!

 

 

Meanwhile, while China's dictators can be harsh & oppressive, at least China is actually solvent with RESERVES. The precise reason being that the people there are NOT allowed to vote otherwise! Which is not to say there is not still tons of corrupt pork there, but at least they just live low to "pay" for it.

[Marblehead]

Seriously, why are we $10 trillion in debt now?

 

Because nobody ever votes for any politicians who promise to cut spending. That's career suicide for any politician.

 

Imagine if a school was democratic. Hey kids...so who wants homework & tests?

 

NOOOOOOO!!!!

 

Ok, guess not. Recess!

Meanwhile, while China's dictators can be harsh & oppressive, at least China is actually solvent with RESERVES. The precise reason being that the people there are NOT allowed to vote otherwise! Which is not to say there is not still tons of corrupt pork there, but at least they just live low to "pay" for it.

 

You said it well.

 

Yes, China owns about half of America's debt. There are trade-offs. Here in the US I think the philosophy is still keep the lazy and unintelligent happy by giving them money in order to avoid social disorder. It's working.

 

Yes, I think it is actually 11 trillion dollars now. The taxes were cut, especially for the rich, and there have been two major wars raging. Fighting two wars takes a lot of money. Then the economic collapse really messed things up.

 

I really don't see the US fully recovering unless it becomes a manufacturing nation again. But this will be difficult, if not impossible, because of big business outsourcing for greater profits and the many international trade agreements in existence.

 

China is still doing well right now but it need to be careful else it will follow in the footsteps of the Japanese.

 

Happy Trails!

[NeiChuan]

tiananmen square has always actually been my favorite story... Just the few against many in a much larger perspective with tons of meaning in a time like that.

[Marblehead]

tiananmen square has always actually been my favorite story... Just the few against many in a much larger perspective with tons of meaning in a time like that.

 

Agree. I did follow those events very closely. And the events did, in fact, bring some change and that's good, I think.

 

Happy Trails!

[Ninpo-me-this-ninjutsu-me-that]

Agree. I did follow those events very closely. And the events did, in fact, bring some change and that's good, I think.

 

Happy Trails!

 

I'm just curious Marblehead, what changes did it bring?

[Marblehead]

I'm just curious Marblehead, what changes did it bring?

 

It led to giving the individual more personal freedom. It opened more access to information on the internet. It allowed for a more open economy (capitalism). It allowed for more non-Chinese to interact in public, especially the media, and interact in commerce.

 

The changes were not all that big and were not easily detectable but it started a process that will be near impossible to stop now.

 

Happy Trails!

 

Oh! I need to add: It stopped a movement (with very little violence) that was leading toward revolution and gross disorder as was seen in Russia after the Communist collapse.

Edited September 26, 2009 by Marblehead

[gendao]

Yes, I think it is actually 11 trillion dollars now. The taxes were cut, especially for the rich, and there have been two major wars raging. Fighting two wars takes a lot of money. Then the economic collapse really messed things up.

 

I really don't see the US fully recovering unless it becomes a manufacturing nation again. But this will be difficult, if not impossible, because of big business outsourcing for greater profits and the many international trade agreements in existence.

I think we need a Constitutional Amendment that BANS deficit spending and sets a VERY small cap on allowing any minimal national debt...during emergencies only. Although ideally, we should have reserves for that.

 

After which, if people want more government programs and services, they will simply have to get their act together, produce more and thus increase tax revenue. All politicians will have to work within these boundaries. You live within your means, period. End of story.

 

Whereas right now, it's like giving a 5-yo Daddy's credit card.

Edited September 26, 2009 by vortex

[Yoda]

cool thread, thanks!

 

having said that Christianity is strangely getting more popular simply because it seems a bit fashionable and exotic!

 

I've heard it said that it's the good schooling system that is pushing Christianity's recent popularity...

 

I didn't realize that Taoism and Buddhism have reached a "laughable" stage... Doesn't sound like a comeback is possible any time soon!*

 

Remove Taoism and Buddhism and we are back to the Qin dynasty brutality. Mao was compared to the first emperor of China who buried alive 460 scholars and Mao said he was offended by the comparison as Mao had buried alive 1,000x that!!!

 

I'm watching the youtube of China's first emperor and he was really paranoid of payback in the afterlife... hence the 8,000 terracotta soldiers! I hope that worked out ok for him!

 

~~~~

 

 

*but are the Chinese *really* Christian and not simply enjoying it as a western fashion? I saw the Sexy Beijing youtube on Christmas which suggested that they are just playing Christian.

[Marblehead]

I think we need a Constitutional Amendment that BANS deficit spending and sets a VERY small cap on allowing any minimal national debt...during emergencies only. Although ideally, we should have reserves for that.

 

After which, if people want more government programs and services, they will simply have to get their act together, produce more and thus increase tax revenue. All politicians will have to work within these boundaries. You live within your means, period. End of story.

 

Whereas right now, it's like giving a 5-yo Daddy's credit card.

 

I have always been a supported of balanced-budget spending. I see no reason why we should allow our government to spend the next generation into gross debt simply to satisfy the greed of today's lazy people.

 

I got a call from the Republican National Convention the other day with this theme. They asked me if I would like to support their efforts to get a balanced-budget bill started in congress. I said I will do whatever I can. They said they would send me a petition for a donation of only $100. I told them to get screwed and they hung up on me.

 

Happy Trails!

 

 

~~~~

*but are the Chinese *really* Christian and not simply enjoying it as a western fashion? I saw the Sexy Beijing youtube on Christmas which suggested that they are just playing Christian.

 

I think that it is more at that to be Christian is the 'in' thing to do so they do it. But then it might be an honest movement. It would probably take at least the time span of two generation to know for sure.

 

Happy Trails!

[Yoda]

I think that it is more at that to be Christian is the 'in' thing to do so they do it. But then it might be an honest movement. It would probably take at least the time span of two generation to know for sure.

 

sounds like a good plan!

[Ninpo-me-this-ninjutsu-me-that]

It led to giving the individual more personal freedom. It opened more access to information on the internet. It allowed for a more open economy (capitalism). It allowed for more non-Chinese to interact in public, especially the media, and interact in commerce.

 

The changes were not all that big and were not easily detectable but it started a process that will be near impossible to stop now.

 

Happy Trails!

 

Oh! I need to add: It stopped a movement (with very little violence) that was leading toward revolution and gross disorder as was seen in Russia after the Communist collapse.

 

Fair points you make.

 

 

cool thread, thanks!

 

 

 

I've heard it said that it's the good schooling system that is pushing Christianity's recent popularity...

 

I didn't realize that Taoism and Buddhism have reached a "laughable" stage... Doesn't sound like a comeback is possible any time soon!*

 

~~~~

*but are the Chinese *really* Christian and not simply enjoying it as a western fashion? I saw the Sexy Beijing youtube on Christmas which suggested that they are just playing Christian.

 

It can't be the schooling system Yoda, it is still a big 'no no' to even mention any religion in a class room, although it does get mentioned from time to time, more as an example of the stupidity of humans and how they can be controlled, so their main point is believe communist philosophy and follow that......go figure. I will say there are a hell of a lot of Christian missionaries in China under the guise of English teacher 'your mission, if you decide to accept it(and you will)is to convert 1.3 billion Chinese'. I dunno, to be honest with you they need something, even the government knows this which is why they have relaxed certain laws, in relation to the major religions anyway. You can find churches in almost every major Chinese city.

 

As for whether it's a fashion thing, they would say that about westerners following Daoism or Buddhism, and frankly, sometimes that's true. People have so many reasons for following a religion, fashionable, social and so on. I've known people who went to churches in western countries simply to find a wife. It's a solution of sorts I suppose.

[~jK~]

You guys are a joke.

 

You really need to travel to see how ignorant you are.

 

But - then again I see the reason - it took me about 15 seconds to find this report:~

 

Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?.../25/MN54903.DTL

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

In the most complete international study of schooling ever conducted, U.S. high school seniors ranked near the bottom in math and science, reflecting what educators call a crisis in American education.

 

Read more:

(02-25) 04:00 PDT STATEWIDE -- In the most complete international study of schooling ever conducted, U.S. high school seniors ranked near the bottom in math and science, reflecting what educators call a crisis in American education.

 

 

The dismal results, released yesterday, are the latest part of the Third International Mathematics & Science Study (TIMSS).

 

U.S. educators said the study points out the critical need for stronger graduation standards and much improved teacher education.

 

``There is something wrong with the system, and it is our generation's responsibility to fix it,'' President Clinton said. ``You cannot blame the schoolchildren. There is no excuse for this.''

 

One of the more ominous findings in the latest study is that even the American students taking advanced courses could not measure up to students from other nations. In math, they ranked 15th out of 16 nations. In physics, U.S. seniors ranked dead last.

 

In general math and science, American seniors ranked near the bottom among 21 nations.

 

Japan and China, usually the gold-medal performers in past studies of younger grades, did not participate in the seniors' round of the multiyear study.

 

Instead, U.S. seniors were outgunned in basic math by Sweden, Switzerland and Germany, among others; creamed in science by Canada; and overpowered in physics by the very country that is supposed to be looking to the United States for scientific expertise, Russia.

 

Only 11 percent of U.S. seniors understood, for example, one of the most basic concepts of energy conservation: that the amount of light energy produced by a lamp is less than the amount of electrical energy used to power the lamp in the first place.

 

On average, 21 percent of students in other countries got this right.

 

``Our students fare poorly on the largest, most comprehensive and most rigorous international comparison of education ever undertaken,'' said a disappointed Bruce Alberts, president of the National Academy of Sciences.

 

``This simply is not acceptable. It is our responsibility to prepare our youth for the next century, and we are failing them.''

 

Only 10 percent of high school graduates qualify for even entry- level jobs, he said.

 

International rankings for grade 4 were released in June and for grade 8 in 1996. American fourth-graders scored competitively, but as math classes progressed, scores declined by eighth grade.

 

The researchers hope that educators in each state will look at the results of the study and beef up standards, improve teaching practices and upgrade academic requirements.

 

California had such an opportunity last fall, when it debated what voluntary statewide standards to adopt in math.

 

But few educators and politicians could even agree on what it meant to match the state standards to the findings of TIMSS.

 

As a result, members of the state Board of Education clashed with the state Department of Education. Each side said its preferred set of math standards more closely reflected the best academic practices of the highest-achieving nations in the TIMSS study.

 

Even the TIMSS researchers got into the debate, with TIMSS executive director Bill Schmidt strongly criticizing the board's standards, and another important TIMSS figure, Harold Stevenson, praising them.

 

The standards preferred by the board members, who are appointees of Governor Pete Wilson, eventually were approved in December over the strong objections of state schools Superintendent Delaine Eastin.

 

But Bill Lucia, the board's executive director, said that despite disagreements over just what practices are likely to yield the highest test scores, the voluntary standards that were adopted are better than what California, like most states, has now: none at all.

 

``We don't even specify what math you have to take,'' he said. ``You can graduate knowing only basic arithmetic.''

 

Although the TIMSS report contains no recommendations for what states should do to improve curriculum and teaching, researchers looked carefully at the practices of nations that consistently outperform others.

 

Surprisingly, the answers suggest that use of calculators, amount of homework assigned, after-school jobs and even stress do not explain American students' low scores.

 

Instead, the highest-performing students are those who take the most rigorous subjects and whose teachers are qualified to teach them, having majored or minored in the subject area, said assistant secretary Gerald Tirozzi of the U.S. Department of Education in announcing the study results.

 

About 55 percent of students taking physics in the United States, for example, are taught by someone who never majored or minored in the subject.

 

Bob Chase, president of the National Education Association, said the TIMSS results represent a crisis in American education, and he called on universities around the country to improve teacher education departments and on school districts to professionalize the field to attract math and science experts back from industry.

 

Here are some of the study's other findings:

 

-- In all countries but South Africa, boys scored significantly higher than girls in math and science literacy.

 

-- Despite their relatively low performance, U.S. seniors were among those who had the highest perception of their performance, with 70 percent believing they did well.

 

-- Despite the different educational approaches and structures in the various countries, parents' education is related to students' math and science literacy.

Edited September 27, 2009 by ~jK~