Lucid dreaming, OOBs and karma

[NeiChuan]

I fail at it because "the itchies" (aka cobwebs) sensation gets very bad. Actually I have a similar problem during meditation but don't worry about it there as much since you aren't told to not scratch if you itch during meditation.

 

Lol I can definetly relate.. One of my I guess "fears" would be the word is bugs crawling in my ears or something when im asleep.. So usually when the bigger vibrations come and such and there there its hard not to move an inch lol I always think (what if it is a spider...) then I realize.. If im in the jungle meditating 10 years from now and I still care if theres bugs on me I've failed already. <.< That works.

 

How long did you do the lucidology before switching over to KAP? And was it because you diden't really see results in the lucidology?

[11:33]

I haven't attempted lucid dreaming in many years, its just never interested me, I think that is because I am more interesed in teh waking lucid dream

 

Anyhow, a very effective technique for inducing lucid dreaming that I used 7 years ago was this:

 

When you are awake, anytime you see a light switch look at it, note whether it is up or down. Then turn your head away and look again. If it changed then you are dreaming.

 

Also, when you are awake, and you see a clock, note the time it says, then look away, then look back. If it has changed then again... you are lucid dreaming.

 

You do this while awake, and the habit ends up being a habit you have while asleep, and you will eventually look at a clock and have the time change wildly. Then you go, oh snap I'm asleep! And wake up. Then knowing you are asleep you can manifest things into your dreaming reality.

 

 

GoldIsHeavy,

 

I asked, because some of your posts I read int he past made me think you would agree with me that all of life is born out of the mind.

 

I'd be very interested in a long discussion about that concept. The "life is a dream" concept, that is.

[JustARandomPanda]

How long did you do the lucidology before switching over to KAP? And was it because you diden't really see results in the lucidology?

 

Not very long at all. I practiced it all of maybe 2 weeks? Then started KAP. I do get frustrated easily and posted about my "itchies" problem but looking back...actually I had quite a bit of success in those 2 weeks. First week I did Lucidology 101 I had a lucid dream. It's just that it didn't happen when I was 'trying' for it during the usual Lucidology trance techniques. But rather kind of spontaneously occurred toward early morning on it's own.

 

The guy at Saltcube is helpful with the people who buy his courses. He'll answer questions, post on the boards occasionally and about a month ago - free of charge to people who'd already bought one or both courses - sent out a "Troubleshooting Lucid Dream/OBE" pdf doc. He answered my concerns about "the itchies" in it.

 

So overall...I'd say I'm very glad I bought them. I just didn't spend enough time with it before KAP started up.

 

[NeiChuan]

Ah its cool. Seems you got an experience outta've it.. Also lucid dreaming isent even all that hard without directions if you just imagine your already dreaming before you sleep. I got it on the first night when I did that.

 

plus I bet KAP is well worth it. cheers =D

[Biff]

Does anyone have any thoughts on the idea of life itself being a lucid dream?

 

The 'dream world' is just as real as this one. Stillness will help anyone see this, and their true nature.

[11:33]

The 'dream world' is just as real as this one. Stillness will help anyone see this, and their true nature.

What is more interesting to me is that, the 'real' world is just as dream-like as the dream world.

[Pero]

The 'dream world' is just as real as this one.

 

Fortunatelly this is not quite true, otherwise I'd be already dead or at the very least seriously injured many times.

[Biff]

Fortunatelly this is not quite true, otherwise I'd be already dead or at the very least seriously injured many times.

 

Yes of course. Silly me.

[Sloppy Zhang]

I usually go through cycles in my motivation in lucid dreaming. When I first found out about it, I was into it, then I slacked off, then I got into it again, then I slacked off again.

 

Right now I'm just coming down from a super motivated time period. Like for the past two months I'd have a lucid dream about 2-4 times a week. The trick I found is just awareness. Awareness in waking life, and awareness in "sleep" life.

 

Unfortunately, being aware like that the whole time is incredibly tiring I could never really find a time to just "shut down", and I'm far too lazy to eat healthfully or do any steady qigong routine among all the other stuff I have going on in my life right now

 

So the past couple of days I've not been paying too much attention to my dreams. Awareness has gone down a lot (in dreams), my dream recall has been horrible.... but I have more energy when I'm awake so.... eh.

[goldisheavy]

I haven't attempted lucid dreaming in many years, its just never interested me, I think that is because I am more interesed in teh waking lucid dream

 

Anyhow, a very effective technique for inducing lucid dreaming that I used 7 years ago was this:

 

When you are awake, anytime you see a light switch look at it, note whether it is up or down. Then turn your head away and look again. If it changed then you are dreaming.

 

Also, when you are awake, and you see a clock, note the time it says, then look away, then look back. If it has changed then again... you are lucid dreaming.

 

You do this while awake, and the habit ends up being a habit you have while asleep, and you will eventually look at a clock and have the time change wildly. Then you go, oh snap I'm asleep! And wake up. Then knowing you are asleep you can manifest things into your dreaming reality.

 

I like this technique. Many of the best techniques are very simple and do not depend on strenuous effort or concentration of any kind.

 

GoldIsHeavy,

 

I asked, because some of your posts I read int he past made me think you would agree with me that all of life is born out of the mind.

 

I'd be very interested in a long discussion about that concept. The "life is a dream" concept, that is.

 

What's there to say that hasn't been said yet? A common error about mind is to assume that mind is only that which is flighty and very changeable. Mind can also be very stable and harder to change than moving a mountain. People take their experiences and draw a line through them. On one side of the line they group all the flighty and non-obviously-public phenomena, on the other side the put all the phenomena that are effortless and spontaneous and that have a good degree of durability. They call one side of this "mind" and the other side of this "physical". I believe that in reality it's all mind. Mind is a smooth range that covers the entire phenomenal spectrum and not just a section of that spectrum that seems/feels close to our head or whatnot.

 

Then if you understand mind in this way, it becomes obvious how you can develop a new way of being in the world. The world no longer has to be something you merely follow. You can create upon it now. You now have more options.

 

People observe some constraints in daily life. For example, if you release a cup from your hand, it falls downward and not up. That's an example of a constraint. When you begin to understand that life is a dream, what changes is how you think about these constraints. In the first case you think they are solid, unchangeable, built-in, pre-existing, absolute, self-existing, independent of you, permanent, etc. In the second case you see constraints as something that is optional (but may have a lot of inertia to overcome), that is dependent (on you), that is temporary, that is instantiated anew every second, and so forth. This changes your relationship to the perceived constraints. You no longer feel victimized by constraints, and you feel that constraints are more like paints that you can paints with, or if you like, you can just observe what is already painted without actively repainting what you see, you have options.

 

To make this powerful, you should keep it honest. If something has inertia, admit it, don't lie to yourself. Some people think that if everything is mind, everything is flighty, and that's not true, or at least, not always true, or often false, etc. Honesty will give you real power because you'll neither overestimate constraints nor underestimate them and your creativity and authority with regard to them will be genuine and effective.

[11:33]

What's there to say that hasn't been said yet?

 

I was thinking this same thing today, hehe. I guess I agree. There isn't much to say about the subject.

 

Though I did enjoy your post

 

Dream on

[goldisheavy]

I have both Lucidology 101 and 102. I almost had success once at it as far as the trance state and heavy vibrating. I literally felt like one big giant guitar string that someone plucked very hard. When they talk about vibrations it's a real, physical thing that's felt. Not something that's just a mind game only. Every other time I fail at it because "the itchies" (aka cobwebs) sensation gets very bad. Actually I have a similar problem during meditation but don't worry about it there as much since you aren't told to not scratch if you itch during meditation.

 

I quit after a while because I started getting into KAP and it just seemed like I already have so much on my plate with KAP I didn't want to divide my time on two different things.

 

I posted a while back on the Lucidology boards. There was an argument as to whether sleep paralysis is necessary to have a lucid dream or OBE.

 

Once I have a final routine to do everyday with KAP and have spent enough time with it (probably at least 6 months to a year minimum) then I'd like to see about practicing the Lucidology techniques again.

 

I think you are trying way too hard. Lucid dreaming is very easy. You don't need any particular technique. What you need is intent and faith. You intend to recognize your dreams as dreams, and you do. You have faith in this, and do not doubt it. Having no doubt doesn't imply a constipated frame of mind where you cannot ask questions about your ability, but it means being certain that sooner or later, by hook or by crook, one way or another, mysteriously or logically it all works out exactly how you intend it. It's like a floor below which you cannot fall down. That's faith. Above this floor there can be all kinds of activity and possibility, but not below. So once you decide to get lucid, there is no chance that you won't. The only variable is how you will get lucid, exactly when, under what circumstances, etc... but not whether or not you will. This understanding that once you decide something there is no more "whether or not", that's the floor of faith and we all have faith in something.

 

You step into the street even though a meteor can fall any second and kill you. That's faith. You draw breath even though there may be poison in the air. You just assume the air is good and generally it is good -- that's faith. You step forward even through the earth might split open at any time, that's faith. You use faith at all times. You can't choose not to have faith, your only choice is what you have faith in, the object of your faith. But you always have some faith and faith doesn't need to be cultivated, it's always yours. You might want to change it. For example, if you have faith in others but not in yourself, you might want to change that, etc...

 

So if you want (genuinely) to be lucid, you will be and in short order too, no doubt about it. There is no need to struggle too much. Just take some actions and watch it happen without worry. Leave your heart open to the possibility, that's all. As long as the door is open, it walks in. It being anything you invite with your intent. Knowing this without effort and without big wobbles is faith and faith comes from understanding that you can't fall below the ground and that you use faith every second of every day as is.

 

Hope this helps.

[Cookie Monster]

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Edited September 26, 2020 by Ocean Form

[Sloppy Zhang]

I think you are trying way too hard. Lucid dreaming is very easy. You don't need any particular technique. What you need is intent and faith. You intend to recognize your dreams as dreams, and you do. You have faith in this, and do not doubt it. Having no doubt doesn't imply a constipated frame of mind where you cannot ask questions about your ability, but it means being certain that sooner or later, by hook or by crook, one way or another, mysteriously or logically it all works out exactly how you intend it. It's like a floor below which you cannot fall down. That's faith. Above this floor there can be all kinds of activity and possibility, but not below. So once you decide to get lucid, there is no chance that you won't. The only variable is how you will get lucid, exactly when, under what circumstances, etc... but not whether or not you will. This understanding that once you decide something there is no more "whether or not", that's the floor of faith and we all have faith in something.

 

You step into the street even though a meteor can fall any second and kill you. That's faith. You draw breath even though there may be poison in the air. You just assume the air is good and generally it is good -- that's faith. You step forward even through the earth might split open at any time, that's faith. You use faith at all times. You can't choose not to have faith, your only choice is what you have faith in, the object of your faith. But you always have some faith and faith doesn't need to be cultivated, it's always yours. You might want to change it. For example, if you have faith in others but not in yourself, you might want to change that, etc...

 

So if you want (genuinely) to be lucid, you will be and in short order too, no doubt about it. There is no need to struggle too much. Just take some actions and watch it happen without worry. Leave your heart open to the possibility, that's all. As long as the door is open, it walks in. It being anything you invite with your intent. Knowing this without effort and without big wobbles is faith and faith comes from understanding that you can't fall below the ground and that you use faith every second of every day as is.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Just wanna say first off gold, I really like your posts in general

 

Okay, so with your post.... um, would you say, then, that there's no "objective reality"?

 

I mean, if you really believe that there's no gravity, and you'll just float around, and then you jump off a building, believe as hard as you might...... splat.

 

So in that case, would you just say that they just didn't really believe enough?

 

I remember you saying in an earlier thread that if you really believed you could fly you wouldn't need to jump off a building, you'd just up and fly, which I liked but I was still wondering.

[goldisheavy]

Just wanna say first off gold, I really like your posts in general

 

Okay, so with your post.... um, would you say, then, that there's no "objective reality"?

 

At the highest level of investigation there is no objective (and therefore no subjective either) reality. This "at the highest level of investigation" is important to keep in mind, because we don't investigate things usually. We just roll forward, habitually and effortlessly, and even our efforts arise in familiar patterns, effortlessly. More on this below.

 

I mean, if you really believe that there's no gravity, and you'll just float around, and then you jump off a building, believe as hard as you might...... splat.

 

This is an error I talked about before. This error is a result of underestimating the phenomenal inertia. Just because something is amenable to change doesn't mean that same something is itching to change at your slightest whim. For example, we all know about water being able to cut stones, but... it's a slow process, yes? You can demolish a mountain with a long series of feathers, but can you imagine how long this takes? So the point is that while one can change anything, some things change faster than others and it's important to be honest about this, or you risk becoming a space cadet.

 

So in that case, would you just say that they just didn't really believe enough?

 

Yes.

 

I remember you saying in an earlier thread that if you really believed you could fly you wouldn't need to jump off a building, you'd just up and fly, which I liked but I was still wondering.

 

Beliefs are not something trivial. They are, in some sense, more durable than mountains and rivers and our atmosphere. Beliefs can be changed, but if you don't want to go insane, or if you don't want to go too insane, the closer you are working to your core beliefs, the slower the change and the more delicate the process. Imagine doing an open-heart surgery on yourself while you are walking down the street -- that's kind of what it's like to be working on your own core beliefs. It's not for the squeamish.

 

The difference between a spiritual person and a physicalist is that to a physicalist the principles, laws, theories behind the apparent reality are utterly bolted down and utterly independent of anything, and especially independent of our beliefs and our state of mind.

 

A spiritual person doesn't perceive anything as independent or bolted-down, however, with this comes a danger. It's all too easy to mis-appreciate the nature of habit energies. Just because something is of the mind does not mean it's a joke or that you can, with trivial effort, overcome it.

 

But the mind is strange. The belief-scape is not a uniform mass. It's weird and alive. So it's possible that you'll make gradual progress with quite some effort for years when suddenly a series of enormous changes will come together for you effortlessly and quickly. That's not impossible. It's also possible that you can experience your path to be fast and effortless. What I am saying though is that it's not a guarantee and it shouldn't always be taken for granted.

 

It's important to have an honest appreciation for what we are facing. If I have some fear and if I were to have any hope of lessening it, I must be honest about the extent of that fear, I must see it honestly to my fullest ability, without exaggeration and without underestimation. I believe this is why it's an art and not a science. That's why when people talk about yoga science, I kind of cringe. From my perspective, while there are some science-like elements to my practice/life, I perceive it more of an art than science.

[goldisheavy]

====

 

I feel I should add this:

 

 

Some things are subtle and are very easy to change. For these things, if you apply too much effort, you lend unnecessary strength to the very thing you're trying to change. In this case, reducing the effort will make change easier.

 

 

 

Some things are gross and are very hard to change. In this case, if you try to solely rely on an effortless approach, you may also miss the mark, because your intent will lack the full heartedness (breadth and depth) that's necessary to change something gross.

 

 

So it's possible to err by going with too much effort or with too little. In both cases the common pattern is this: When you are honest, change is as fast as it can be. When you are dishonest, change is slower than it could otherwise be. If you exaggerate something subtle, you lend it your own vitality and make it more vigorous and more resistant than it would otherwise be. But if you underestimate something truly pervasive, deep, entrenched, then your intent may take too long to mature to the proper level of fullness that properly matches the character and scope of what you're trying to change.

 

And how can we know what's what? What's subtle? What's gross? Just how subtle something is? I can't think of any scientific way of knowing. This is why I think it's an art. You have to live your life with forbearance and resolve, and just keep at it, and eventually you will have the type of insight that will be effective for what you want to see or accomplish.

Edited September 29, 2009 by goldisheavy

[Sloppy Zhang]

Thanks for the responses, Gold

[lino]

There's a website called ld4all and on their forum a topic of "police in lucid dreams" came up.

 

A large number of dreamers on that board had encountered "police" in their lucid dreams. Like they would become lucid, and say, go around and have sex with people they met in their dreams. Sometimes these people would resist and the dreamer would say, "well you're part of my dream I can do what I want with you." And when they did that police came and "arrested" them.

 

They were told they can't just go around doing stuff like that. When they tried to lucidly get away (by flying, teleportation, etc) they couldn't. Others could get away, others were told by other figures in their dreams.

 

But generally speaking, almost everyone in the thread had run into some type of conflict with the rules because of what they were doing. Maybe it's just their own mind saying you shouldn't do it. Maybe it's spirits trying to tell you something. Maybe it's your own admission of karma. I dunno.

 

The point I guess is that, on some level, even if it's just us doing it, we are all held responsible for stuff eventually.

 

Oh lord, they better watch out that they don't end up like Abner Louima or Michael Mineo. I see how this can go really bad.

[lino]

There's a website called ld4all and on their forum a topic of "police in lucid dreams" came up.

 

A large number of dreamers on that board had encountered "police" in their lucid dreams. Like they would become lucid, and say, go around and have sex with people they met in their dreams. Sometimes these people would resist and the dreamer would say, "well you're part of my dream I can do what I want with you." And when they did that police came and "arrested" them.

 

They were told they can't just go around doing stuff like that. When they tried to lucidly get away (by flying, teleportation, etc) they couldn't. Others could get away, others were told by other figures in their dreams.

 

But generally speaking, almost everyone in the thread had run into some type of conflict with the rules because of what they were doing. Maybe it's just their own mind saying you shouldn't do it. Maybe it's spirits trying to tell you something. Maybe it's your own admission of karma. I dunno.

 

The point I guess is that, on some level, even if it's just us doing it, we are all held responsible for stuff eventually.

 

 

Wait a minute. I just noticed something. Kind of a cross-reference.

 

http://www.qigongtherapy.com/taooflife.html

 

"What truth have your realized." Asked the Abbot.

 

" A single millet contains the universe,

The mountains and rivers are cooking in the cauldron." Answered Lu

 

If every person is their own universe, then I'm my own universe. I want to stop all of the "creation" in it.

 

"Lucid Police", rapes, beating up and murdering people?!!? That's stupid and unambitious.

Edited October 1, 2009 by lino