"Real" Happiness

[Marblehead]

Hey Marble, great thread.

 

The Sage says 'the longest of roads begins with the first step.' And the first step is the Three Laws of Thought the Mind naturally follows to determine between real and unreal. yes??

 

Thanks.

 

Yeah, I think that this can be associated with the concept of 'unlearning' (those things that are not real or natural) and re-learning one's own naturalness (one's true nature).

 

I also thing that this can be associated with that new thread regarding Taoist Wisdom.

 

Peace & Love!

[Tao99]

Actually, Chuang Tzu spoke very harshly against the wisdon of the 'learned man'

but spoke very highly of the wisdon of the man who lived according to the processes of nature.

 

He suggests that we unlearn the wisdon of the 'learned man' and return to the wisdon of our true nature.

 

Peace & Love!

 

So is this (above) the fork in the road you are going down??

 

Who hasn't met the person who knows everything there is to know about football, but can't play the game at all. The way you put this is the clearest I've seen of the admonition against hyper-intellectualizing - making giant detailed maps of the universe and getting stuck in them, as opposed to primal-observing, awareness of the intuitive Inconceivable, and minimizing thoughts.

 

Thus it's said in Taoism that we reduce our worldly, learned, mundane, and contriving knowledge more and more day by day until we arrive at pure action (pure playing) without unnecessary reflection.

Edited November 14, 2009 by Tao99

[Marblehead]

So is this (above) the fork in the road you are going down??

 

Who hasn't met the person who knows everything there is to know about football, but can't play the game at all. The way you put this is the clearest I've seen of the admonition against hyper-intellectualizing - making giant detailed maps of the universe and getting stuck in them, as opposed to primal-observing, awareness of the intuitive Inconceivable, and minimizing thoughts.

 

Thus it's said in Taoism that we reduce our worldly, learned, mundane, and contriving knowledge more and more day by day until we arrive at pure action (pure playing) without unnecessary reflection.

 

Hi Tao99,

 

I can't answer your question because I really don't know. I think it is but one step along the way. All I know is that the end goal is to talk about happiness but I have no idea of how or when we will arrive there. What's that saying? "It's not the destination but the journey that is important."

 

But, to what you said, yes, I have seen many well-eduacted simpletons in my day. They have all the book learning but they are incapable of applying their knowledge in the 'real world'.

 

And yes, this is what Lao Tzu and Chuang Tzu both spoke of when they spoke of returning to the innocence of the new-born calf or the uncarved wood. Being empty-minded (without prejudice) we can then respond to stimulus naturally, yes, as you said, 'without unnecessary reflection'.

 

Peace & Love!

[C T]

Hello MH,

 

Its getting more interesting, so keep 'em coming eh? The magic is in the unfolding, layer by layer..

 

Have a great weekend!

 

Cheerio!

[Marblehead]

Hello MH,

 

Its getting more interesting, so keep 'em coming eh? The magic is in the unfolding, layer by layer..

 

Have a great weekend!

 

Cheerio!

 

Thanks.

 

It's really all the wonderful input that I am getting from y'all that is making this fun. Thanks to everyone for your input.

 

To be continued.

 

Peace & Love!

[Tao99]

Now I'm no sage and I'm no Rene, just a lowly spectator in the back, so please to correct me if I'm wrong, but what I'm hearing is ...

 

If you see a rose, in an empty hand,

you are in the realm of illusion.

 

If you see a hand holding a rose, as empty,

you are in the realm of delusion.

 

Otherwise you are in the realm of the "Real",

Where a rose is a rose, by any name.

[Mark Foote]

Now I'm no sage and I'm no Rene, just a lowly spectator in the back, so please to correct me if I'm wrong, but what I'm hearing is ...

 

If you see a rose, in an empty hand,

you are in the realm of illusion.

 

If you see a hand holding a rose, as empty,

you are in the realm of delusion.

 

Otherwise you are in the realm of the "Real",

Where a rose is a rose, by any name.

 

from Fuxi (500 C.E.?):

 

An empty hand grasps the hoe handle

Walking along, I ride the ox

The ox crosses the wooden bridge

The bridge is flowing, the water is still

 

From Wuzu (1100 C.E.?):

 

... Charmingly, the pine and bamboo draw a clear breeze.

 

Nother favorite, from Alexandra David-Neel:

 

Nirvana means an extinction, or rather, the action of a breath which blows upon a flame and extinguishes it.

 

So "an empty hand charmingly draws a clear breeze that blows upon a flame and extinguishes it".

 

Rene was not there, in a very real sense.

 

Ha ha!

[Marblehead]

Now I'm no sage and I'm no Rene, just a lowly spectator in the back, so please to correct me if I'm wrong, but what I'm hearing is ...

 

If you see a rose, in an empty hand,

you are in the realm of illusion.

 

If you see a hand holding a rose, as empty,

you are in the realm of delusion.

 

Otherwise you are in the realm of the "Real",

Where a rose is a rose, by any name.

 

Hi Tao99,

 

Yes, that is my understanding. But I don't want to draw any conclusions at this point as we still have a long way to travel. Who knows what tomorrow will present us?

 

Peace & Love!

[Marblehead]

Hi Mark,

 

from Fuxi (500 C.E.?):

 

An empty hand grasps the hoe handle

Walking along, I ride the ox

The ox crosses the wooden bridge

The bridge is flowing, the water is still

 

Lines 1, 2, and 3 are reality. Line 4 is a delusion. Line 2 implies that the ox is walking as the rider rides.

 

Nirvana means an extinction, or rather, the action of a breath which blows upon a flame and extinguishes it.

So "an empty hand charmingly draws a clear breeze that blows upon a flame and extinguishes it".

 

Now we know that a breath that blows upon a fire will add to the flame (more oxygen). The flame is not extinguished. An empty, unmoving hand cannot produce a breeze, just as an empty mind cannot produce a thought.

 

Rene was not there, in a very real sense.

Ha ha!

 

Ah! But Rene was always there. Even when he doubted his existence he was there. Even his doubting reinforced the reality of his existence.

 

Everything that exists and everything that does not exist is very real at every specific point in time. Time will alter its condition or state of reality but regardless of its condition it is real none-the-less.

 

Consider this thought. What I am existed before I existed, it is just that what I am was in a different condition before I existed. What I am now will one day take on another condition but we don't know what that will be yet.

 

Peace & Love!

[Mark Foote]

Hi Mark,

Lines 1, 2, and 3 are reality. Line 4 is a delusion. Line 2 implies that the ox is walking as the rider rides.

Now we know that a breath that blows upon a fire will add to the flame (more oxygen). The flame is not extinguished. An empty, unmoving hand cannot produce a breeze, just as an empty mind cannot produce a thought.

Ah! But Rene was always there. Even when he doubted his existence he was there. Even his doubting reinforced the reality of his existence.

 

Everything that exists and everything that does not exist is very real at every specific point in time. Time will alter its condition or state of reality but regardless of its condition it is real none-the-less.

 

Consider this thought. What I am existed before I existed, it is just that what I am was in a different condition before I existed. What I am now will one day take on another condition but we don't know what that will be yet.

 

Peace & Love!

Hi, Marbles (and all you bums out there)-

 

line 4 is poetic license. Not flag, not wind, mind is moving- you know, that one. Interesting that the pine and bamboo draw a breeze; if we are wild and rooted, I think sometimes we draw a breeze as well. If you blow on a tinder fire, you do indeed feed the flames- but if a draft catches a sputtering candle, likely that's that, over and done.

 

I agree with the unlearning part, yet the danger is in assuming too big a role in the process. The muscles of the pelvis move in response to stretch, the very place we rest on is in motion if we relax and sink into the stretch, yet the mind must be with what is uncomfortable as well as with what is comfortable before we ride and our legs feel as though we walk.

[Marblehead]

Hi Mark,

 

Nothing really to say, just wanted to let you know I read your response.

 

Peace & Love!

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

Not flag, not wind, mind is moving

As long as it's clear that it is the 'mind' that conjures that play on words.. the flag moves, we tell ourselves stories about it..

 

Be well..

[Marblehead]

(Story continues.)

 

"So that is it Rene," says the Sage. "We must remain mindful of what is reality and what are illusions and delusions." "Come, my fellow seekers," continues the Sage. "Let us leave Rene in his peaceeful retirement and continue our search for real happiness."

 

Once outside the Sage gathers the seekers and says, "Now that we understand that we must descriminate between reality and our illusions and delusions I think we need define the word 'happiness'. I have heard that one of the best libraries in the world is just down the street. Let us walk there and find the best of the best definitions of the word."

 

With that they begin their short walk to the library.

[Mark Foote]

(Story continues.)

 

With that they begin their short walk to the library.

 

'Damn, Rene, didn' you say the library was just right here? Walkin' for miles now, I ain't seen no library! Man, how we gonna define happiness if the library be closed by the time we get there...

[Marblehead]

'Damn, Rene, didn' you say the library was just right here? Walkin' for miles now, I ain't seen no library! Man, how we gonna define happiness if the library be closed by the time we get there...

 

Keep the faith, my fellow seeker. It may be just around the next corner.

[Tao99]

A silver ship came down from the sky

and a silver man got out.

 

"Look here!" he said "In my palm"

"All the definitions of every word in the world."

 

"ARGGGHHH!" yelled the sage and group

"The witchiest of wizards, an alien from another world is amongst us!"

 

The silver man ran back to the silver ship ... and flew off,

And so the group walked on, down an ancient dusty road, to the library ...

 

As they scratched their noses, they couldn't help but wonder,

"How could we ever be as happy and wise as those silver folk!?!"

Edited November 20, 2009 by Tao99

[Marblehead]

Hehehe. Just couldn't take the pressure, could you Tao99? Everyone wants to get to the end as quickly as possible. (This is actually more fun than I thought it would be.)

 

Peace & Love!

[Tao99]

(Story continues.)

 

"So that is it Rene," says the Sage. "We must remain mindful of what is reality and what are illusions and delusions." "Come, my fellow seekers," continues the Sage. "Let us leave Rene in his peaceeful retirement and continue our search for real happiness."

 

Once outside the Sage gathers the seekers and says, "Now that we understand that we must descriminate between reality and our illusions and delusions I think we need define the word 'happiness'. I have heard that one of the best libraries in the world is just down the street. Let us walk there and find the best of the best definitions of the word."

 

With that they begin their short walk to the library.

 

A absent-minded scientist tagging along says "We have a way you know ... a way to discriminate between reality, illusions, and delusions."

 

from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_I_and_type_II_errors

 

"A test of some sort is conducted (a blood test), and data are obtained. The result of the test may be negative (that is, it does not indicate disease). On the other hand, it may be positive (that is, it may indicate disease).

 

If the result of the test does not correspond with the actual state of nature (the tao?), then an error has occurred, but if the result of the test corresponds with the actual state of nature, then a correct decision has been made.

 

There are two kinds of error, classified as "type I error" and "type II error," depending upon which hypothesis has incorrectly been identified as the true state of nature.

 

Type I error

 

Type I error, also known as an "error of the first kind", an α error, or a "false positive": Plainly speaking, it occurs when we are observing a difference when in truth there is none, thus indicating a test of poor specificity. An example of this would be if a test shows that a woman is pregnant when in reality she is not.

[Thus a false positive (see a rose, when in reality there is none) has occurred, or an illusion.]

 

Type I error can be viewed as the error of excessive credulity.

 

Type II error

 

Type II error, also known as an "error of the second kind", a β error, or a "false negative" In other words, this is the error of failing to observe a difference when in truth there is one, thus indicating a test of poor sensitivity. An example of this would be if a test shows that a woman is not pregnant when in reality she is.

[Thus a false negative (see no rose, when in reality there is one) has occurred, or a delusion.]

 

Type II error can be viewed as the error of excessive skepticism."

 

Of course, we will need a definition to apply this scientific way, so onward indeed!

Edited November 20, 2009 by Tao99

[Marblehead]

Hi Tao99,

 

I almost expected a post similar to this from you.

 

I could tell when you first alluded to it that you wanted to talk more of the subject.

 

I will agree that in defining 'reality' a good scientific method is the best way to go about this effort.

 

And a very important aspect of this process is observing the data without prejudice (seeing it as it truely is).

 

And speaking of observation:

 

The group rounded the corner and there it was!!! In all it grandeur and beauty!!!

 

A perfect 3X scale of the Library of Alexandria!!!!

 

All were struck with awe. What a grand palace of the words of man!

 

Following the period of shock and awe they proceded toward the entrance of this noble and proud building.

[Tao99]

 

And speaking of observation:

 

The group rounded the corner and there it was!!! In all it grandeur and beauty!!!

 

A perfect 3X scale of the Library of Alexandria!!!!

 

All were struck with awe. What a grand palace of the words of man!

 

Following the period of shock and awe they proceded toward the entrance of this noble and proud building.

 

 

Epic and gnarly .... as the surfers say ...

[Marblehead]

Epic and gnarly .... as the surfers say ...

 

Hehehe. Glad you liked that. I don't normally mess around with all those flowery words.

 

Peace & Love!

[Mark Foote]

A silver ship came down from the sky

and a silver man got out.

 

"Look here!" he said "In my palm"

"All the definitions of every word in the world."

 

Remember the Alamo

When help was on the way

It's better here and now,

I feel that good today.

 

I'd like to take a walk

But not around the block

I really got some news

I met a man from Mars.

He picked up all my guitars

And played me traveling songs.

 

And when we got on ship

He brought out

something for the trip

And said, It's old but it's good

Like any other primitive would.

 

(from "Ride my Llama" by Neil Young)

[Marblehead]

The Sage stops the group momentarily to say, "Please enjoy yourselves while in the library. I will seek out a good definition of the word 'happiness' while you all view this wondor of wonders. Let us meet back outside at the entrance in two hours."

 

With that the group enters the library.

[Mark Foote]

The Sage stops the group momentarily to say, "Please enjoy yourselves while in the library. I will seek out a good definition of the word 'happiness' while you all view this wondor of wonders. Let us meet back outside at the entrance in two hours."

 

With that the group enters the library.

 

Picking up a volume of long forgotten lore, the man from Mars pondered, nearly napping; like the tapping of a librarian on his skull, he suddenly realized what his eyes had read, although there were no pictures:

 

"Whatever happiness, whatever joy, Ananda, arises in consequence of these five strands of sense-pleasures, it is called happiness in sense-pleasures.

 

Whoever, Ananda, should speak thus: 'This is the highest happiness and joy that creatures experience'- this I cannot allow on [their] part. What is the reason for this? There is, Ananda, another happiness more excellent and exquisite than that happiness. And what, Ananda, is the other happiness more excellent and exquisite than that happiness? Here, Ananda, a [person], aloof from the pleasures of the senses, aloof from unskilled states of mind, enters and abides in the first meditation that is accompanied by initial thought and discursive thought, is born of aloofness and is rapturous and joyful. This, Ananda, is the other happiness that is more excellent and exquisite than that happiness." (Majjhima-Nikaya volume one 389-399, Pali Text Society edition volume ii pg 67)

 

Quoth the librarian, softly: "shhh!- snore no more!"

[Apech]

Quoth the librarian, softly: "shhh!- snore no more! For you have to pay a big fine for the Harry Potter you borrowed last June and never brought back!"

Edited November 25, 2009 by apepch7