Profanity

[Mal]

A good question from Tao 99, which he has placed in his reply so I'll just tidy this a bit

<snip>

 

Feel free to discuss any thought on the profane

 

Here are some ideas already raised

This one is tricky for me. I've been re-reading the insult policy and I totally agree that we can't condone personal insults.

 

But I find profanity tricky.

 

1. I'm Aussie and we swear a lot.

 

2. While I hardly ever go to other boards, in general there is a lot of juvenile language and swearing.

 

Perhaps I'm getting old but recently it doesn't seem like a casual "for f@rk sake" but rather said with a hurtful intent, which I don't like.

 

We get a lot of young people finding there way here, and I just don't think it is the right way to act.. Even though we have a lot of sexual content which I'm totally for.

 

Am I getting old and prudish

 

To me I think it might boil down to: is this person engaging in an authentic, non-violent discussion with this community?

 

If someone is cursing AT someone (fuck you) or even about someone's opinion (your opinion is bullshit), that is a clear problem.

 

A bit more subtly, if someone's posts are just absolutely overloaded with vulgarity without any attempt to contribute or engage in a dialogue, then I would say that is a problem and could stand a private warning (hey buddy, what's going on with all the cursing and ranting, can we cool it a bit? there are pretty ladies here).

 

But if cursing is just a part of how someone expresses themselves (i fucking love this song!) then to me that is totally acceptable and sometimes even awesome.

 

Best,

Sean

[Tao99]

Here's the best I can do anyway. Good luck!

 

There has been a lot of profane attacks from certain members recently that have gone unaddressed over the past months. It is something we have been discussing with Sean.

 

It's a tough subject.

 

Mal,

 

It is a tough subject, particularly on an open-ended Tao website.

 

You mention you have been discussing "profane attacks". IMO this is two issues:

1. profanity - what is it and how much is ok?

 

2. attack - what is it and how shall it be responded too? Is strongly critiqueing a practice/point in strong terms (eg "Taoist monism is completely wrong and proves you are not Liberated." - V. How about strongly critiqueing a person's personal attributes "You are so sadly subjective ... your ego/delusion/ignorance is sadly apparent" -V) an attack?

 

So it is a very tricky and I don't envy you. I think these are the questions though. I personally don't really mind any of the above. Strong critiques are annoying, but still just personal opinions that don't hold a lot of weight.

[Mal]

and the little fishing example

Fuck yea! I'm wit you. That fuckin shit don't deserve the fuckin time of day. Shit no! Fuck yea it a good choice to choose what you fuckin want in you. Fuck that shit!! Get the fuck outa here and don't fuckin come around you fuckin intrusive shit bags!

 

BTW you own me 46 min of missed sleep, thanks

[Tao99]

I really don't see the problem with it, unless explicitly forbidden for no real reason. The pretty ladies reason is kinda condescending and fallacious (foul mouthed females about as common). Above does make a simple point about entities, so no attack, just with a lot of expletives. And I really don't see the difference between a "little profanity" Shit. Shit. Fuck. and a lot. The foul cat's still out of the bag for the pretty ladies. Its really about simple crudity and the quantity is just splitting hairs. For the sake of minors on this site you could encrypt shit and fuck like esangha does (I believe, they only allow sh*t and f*ck if at all). Or you could think that for the age group here its no problem. Or whatever

Edited September 26, 2009 by Tao99

[Mal]

I really don't see the problem with it, unless explicitly forbidden for no real reason.

 

The problem is intent. i.e you could have chosen not to use fuck. But you did. and probably for the purpose of inciting more of a response than you would have otherwise. That worked. Could the point have been made without swearing. Probably. Was it used exclusively on purpose. Yes. Were you responding to other posts and escalating. You say so and that one is a real problem that can really escalate into flame wars. Someone else nibbled and then this one was a large bite. We can understand why Stig felt the need to make a post. Can you? Should he have let it slide for you or someone else to test things out with a more blatant test?

 

It's almost an hour now. I am seriously getting cranky and have to go back to bed, sorry For what it's worth I did at least find your post funny. But if my partner wakes up and wants to take me shoping things will not be pretty.

 

Still I am happy for some discussion on this to gather opinions.

[Apech]

Since when did we have a problem with swearing? Unless someone is swearing at someone else - then it should be ignored - even if they are swearing at someone else it should be ignored unless it gets out of hand. The real problem is disrespect, malicious attacks, trolling and so on.

 

 

Mods stay calm - we don't want thought police.

[Mal]

Mods stay calm - we don't want thought police.

 

Agreed for sure.

[Aetherous]

If people are feeling threatened by someone's swearing (even if it's not exactly directed at anyone), it's a problem worthy of moderation.

 

If people dislike it when they read swear words, it's their own problem.

[Apech]

All respect to the Mod Team by the way.

 

[Mal]

it's all good, discussion is the reason for this thread.

 

Moderating is a big learning curve for all of us. People will want to test us out, we will want to test how our response are received.

 

Mistakes will be made. These things happen when learning. We rarely agree on much here anyhow But eventually things will settle down and become routine. People won't even notice there are moderators.... at least that is the plan

[Marblehead]

Mistakes will be made.

 

That's a fact! If you are not making mistakes now and then you are not doing anything.

 

Happy Trails!

[Stigweard]

That's a fact! If you are not making mistakes now and then you are not doing anything.

 

Happy Trails!

The funny thing is though that, ideally, we don't want to have to do anything.

 

I think I can speak for all members of the Mod Squad that we love this place and the last thing we want to do is create any unnecessary changes. However, the mere fact that there is now a moderation team means a change has already happened. The guidelines we are trying to hammer out are for the purpose of the enjoyable participation of each and every member of TTBs. We have to be fair, consistent, as light handed as possible but we also have to be effective.

 

[Marblehead]

The funny thing is though that, ideally, we don't want to have to do anything.

 

I think I can speak for all members of the Mod Squad that we love this place and the last thing we want to do is create any unnecessary changes. However, the mere fact that there is now a moderation team means a change has already happened. The guidelines we are trying to hammer out are for the purpose of the enjoyable participation of each and every member of TTBs. We have to be fair, consistent, as light handed as possible but we also have to be effective.

 

 

Ah! My friend is hoping for the ideal. That's good. I would point out that the higher our standards the harder they will be to achieve.

 

I have not spoken as of yet regarding the use of profanity and I doubt that I will.

 

However, personal insult, I think, prevents honest and open discussion. To insult a concept or idea is one thing and I think this is acceptable but to insult the individual holding the concept or idea is unacceptable.

 

Yep. Unnecessary changes are unnecessary. Dah!

 

I think that censorship is bad but I also think that personal insults are bad too.

 

Bottom line: R E S P E C T

 

Total and absolute disagreement with a concept presented is possible without the use of insulting the presenter of the concept .

 

The member's right to voice their opinions should never be restricted. But, a member's right to disagree with an individual's opinions should never be restricted either. Just don't let it get personal.

 

Okay. I'm done. Hehehe.

 

Happy Trails!

[Tao99]

The problem is intent. i.e Were you responding to other posts and escalating. You say so and that one is a real problem that can really escalate into flame wars.

However, personal insult, I think, prevents honest and open discussion. To insult a concept or idea is one thing and I think this is acceptable but to insult the individual holding the concept or idea is unacceptable.

 

And there's the rub- insulting the person. With V here directly going after the person with his constant responses of

 

"You are so sadly subjective, deluded, ignorant ( =fool = stupid?) that you don't get it and believe something completely wrong."

 

Is that insulting the person, as opposed to a point or practice? I'd say it is strongly critiquing the person, but does not cross over into "insulting the person" which is such things as "you are an a-hole," "fck u," "go to hell" etc.

 

I'd say the Buddhist "ignorance may as well be calling you a fool or stupid so there you go. That stands for others as well. This is why V makes such a fascinating case - his MO is to go for the jugular of the person opponent and strongly critique them (the person) as the reason for their mis-conceptions.

 

As for my post, I was merely riffing off a prior post cursing which made me think of the new mod squad. Was that insulting the person? no way. Was it even critiquing the person, as V does in every post? no way because it was merely testing the mod question of what WILL be acceptable.

[Marblehead]

Hi Tao99,

 

Therein lies the difference, I think.

 

When we say "You are ..." followed by some negative trait I feel that this is insulting the person. A person's ignorance of a subject is no cause for a personal attack against the person. Doesn't matter if vulgar language has been used or not. However, to say "You are unable to grasp the concept because of your ignorance of the subject ..." is not, IMO, a personal attack, it is only a statement of the opinion of the sayer.

 

And even vulgarity, something like "What the F...?" is not a personal attack but rather an extreme expression.

 

I'm not going to look back at your outburst of profanity (once was too much, Hehehe.) but as long as it made no attack on an individual I would just shake my head and think "He lost it again." and maybe laugh.

 

And even something like what I have said a couple times, "That is Bulls...!" is not attacking the individual but attacking the statement or concept that was presented.

 

So, bottom line, I think that the prime concern of the ModSquad should be based on protecting the rights and dignity of all members but not based on censoring word usage by the members.

 

Happy Trails!

[Apech]

Compare:

 

1) you are f***ing stupid

 

2) you are being f***ing stupid

 

If you mod obscene language then 1) becomes

 

1) you [.......] are stupid

 

which is still a personal insult.

 

Arguably 2) is ok because the sense is an attack on what someone is saying/doing and not the person.

 

 

I think we will just have to wait till it happens - its such a find line ... I'm glad I'm not a moderator but I think you will always have the support of most people because we know you are trying to do the right thing

[VCraigP]

The profanity that can be named is not the real profanity.

 

or

 

I can't tell you what good art is, but I know it when I see it.

 

We are all doubtful this issue will really be very prevalent, meaning it will likely almost never happen.

 

Trying to define it in advance is a bit futile IMO....but do go on and try if you like.

 

there will be rules. they will occassionally be broken. Sometimes excessively.

 

Moderation will likely not arise out of most of these.

 

Marble head Agree with you.

"Bottom line - Respect."

 

Tao99

Was "testing" the moderation respectful of the moderators or the community?

 

Craig

[Tao99]

yea it was , it played by the current rules, and it quickly and effectively opened up the modding discussion which was/is desperately needed because of V's constantly going after the person as opposed to the point or practice. (I can see trhe day when someone says to him "No YOU are the ignorant fool." and that person gets a warning for insulting when it's V's MO to go after the person in almost every rebuttal. So yea I'm glad I did it.

[JustARandomPanda]

yea it was , it played by the current rules, and it quickly and effectively opened up the modding discussion which was/is desperately needed because of V's constantly going after the person as opposed to the point or practice. (I can see trhe day when someone says to him "No YOU are the ignorant fool." and that person gets a warning for insulting when it's V's MO to go after the person in almost every rebuttal. So yea I'm glad I did it.

 

You should have done the "testing" in one of VH's threads.

 

There are TONS of past and current VH threads to choose from to do all the Mod Testing you want. Plenty from Findley or Santi or other TaoBummers too to test the limits of profanity.

 

Witch's thread should've been left alone.

[Tao99]

what's the difference I didn't break any rules mod madness whatever bye

 

PS i didnt start the cursing in that thread I was responding to someone else's cursing in that thread thats why it was in that thread i notice you didnt say anything about v cursing in that thread. playing favorites already tsk tsk anyway whats the big special deal about witches thread mod. big deal. this is just hyper biased mod commenting for the in club. just forget it

Edited September 26, 2009 by Tao99

[Stigweard]

[Marblehead]

This brings up a very important point, I think.

 

Point being is that "EVERYBODY", mods included, must adhere to the same standards.

 

There were no standards when Tao99 made his rediculous post. I have seen here where certain individuals pop into a thread, make a vulgar comment but never contribute anything to the thread.

 

This only discourages further discussion - a discussion where someone may have gained important information regarding a problem they were trying to deal with at the moment.

 

You should have done the "testing" in one of VH's threads.

 

Yes, Serene, the "testing" would have been more effective if he had done that. Hindsight is always more efficient than foresight. Spontenaity uses neither in most cases.

 

So. My own personal opinion regarding discussions of moderation shouldn't be concentrating on the use of profanity but rather upon the respect of each member by all members of the forum.

 

There are many members here who do not have English as their first language and it is important that these members recieve proper respect regardless of their ability to communicate in a grammatically correct manner.

 

Anyhow. I'm done for now.

 

Happy Trails!

[Stigweard]

what's the difference I didn't break any rules mod madness whatever bye

 

PS i didnt start the cursing in that thread I was responding to someone else's cursing in that thread thats why it was in that thread i notice you didnt say anything about v cursing in that thread. playing favorites already tsk tsk anyway whats the big special deal about witches thread mod. big f deal. this is just hyper biased mod commenting for the in club. just forget it im outa here

My friend, we honestly missed V's post and you would note that I immediately included it in my comments as soon as you brought it to my attention.

 

In your own admission you deliberately pushed the line and got called out for it ... get over it.

 

This brings up a very important point, I think.

 

Point being is that "EVERYBODY", mods included, must adhere to the same standards.

Absolutely! Which is why we have been working very hard on establishing simple, straightforward guidelines that will help produce consistency and equanimity in our moderation.

 

http://www.thetaobums.com/Moderation-Guidelines-t11707.html

[Marblehead]

Absolutely! Which is why we have been working very hard on establishing simple, straightforward guidelines that will help produce consistency and equanimity in our moderation.

 

http://www.thetaobums.com/Moderation-Guidelines-t11707.html

 

I somehow missed the "Guidelines" that were posted above. Y'all have done a lot of hard work so far.

 

I just wouldn't like to see the "Guidelines" get to the point where they force the more active members away. I have seen this hapen on other forums. And I have also seen forums where the mods feel they are 'above' the guidelines when they get involved in a heated discussion. I have also seen a case where a mod made public a private discussion between themself and a member resulting from a personal disagreement.

 

Moderation ain't no easy job and I wish you all the very best.

 

But like I said, the main thing I am concerned about is the public degradation of any member by another member. Pissing contests should be done only via PM if they are felt necessary.

 

Happy Trails!

[TheSongsofDistantEarth]

Ay, que la chingada!